Tranq shot - Page 3

Gonkish · 09/29/06, 3:47 AM

Also note that a tranq failure on Gluth can end up biting you in the ass later on, as he is a random frenzy timer. Flamegor is FAST on the frenzies, but he is as regular as any timed boss ability. (He clearly gets his fiber.)

Having a tranq failure on Gluth with 3 hunters can be a problem, as it is conceivable that all 3 will have tranq in cooldown when he frenzies again. It can happen, it's very, very unlikely, but it is still a possibility.

Azgrim · 09/29/06, 3:57 AM

Originally Posted by Gonkish

Also note that a tranq failure on Gluth can end up biting you in the ass later on, as he is a random frenzy timer. Flamegor is FAST on the frenzies, but he is as regular as any timed boss ability. (He clearly gets his fiber.)

Having a tranq failure on Gluth with 3 hunters can be a problem, as it is conceivable that all 3 will have tranq in cooldown when he frenzies again. It can happen, it's very, very unlikely, but it is still a possibility.

Had this happen this week, but we had a 4th hunter in the raid to correct the rotation timing. If you only have 3 hunters you have to skip a tranq to fix the rotation, so tell healers that next frenzy is gonna last the full duration so they can queue thier heals.

Zurai · 09/29/06, 4:32 AM

Originally Posted by Hypothraxer

I was always under the impression that pets are getting hit harder by raid mobs/raid bosses - I haven't tested it though so I can't really say if it's true. But if that "pet-penalty" is true then it would've to be lifted in order that pets can actually tank - just increasing the health/armor won't do.

No clue why you'd have a silly impression like that. This isn't Diablo 2. Pets don't take any more damage than standard (player) combat mechanics say they should with their given armor and resistances. The problem with their survivability is that the absolute best tanking pet is going to have no more than 6.5k health and 6k armor fully buffed and talented. A midline pet like a wolf will have 5k health and 5k armor with standard raid group buffs and minimal BM speccing.

◊ Lactose · 09/29/06, 4:47 AM

And don't forget the insane amounts of crits and crushing blows the pet'll receive...

LadyVex · 09/29/06, 9:20 AM

Originally Posted by Steelfleece

Originally Posted by LadyVex

Are you kidding?

Original Broodlord resisted 9/10 FD's and had a 100% aggro wipe; as a hunter you were doing like 20 dps because you couldn't ditch aggro and everyone near him was constantly losing it.

I always thought hunters had a good idea of the aggro ceiling on that fight since it was so aggro touchy, and just about all of our wipes were mage/warlock caused.

As far as hunters not understanding the aggro ceiling I don't agree with that at all.

*facepalm*

Broodlord did not and does not resist feign death more than any other level 63 mob. That's just something you were imagining. Please don't say things like that. No boss mob resists feign death more than another boss mob, though fights with adds are harder to feign in(read: Gluth) because you have to make a resist check against all the nearby adds.

As for the other posts on Broodlord, while that may be true for an Alliance guild, for the Horde with no BoS or Tranquil Air, it was not possible for mages and warlocks to go all out on Broodlord at any point or they WOULD pull aggro. The aggro ceiling was an issue, but DPS had to be relatively slow still because there was so little -threat for us at the time. Keep in mind we are talking about Broodlord when his knock-away was a 100% deaggro, not today's Broodlord which merely has a 50% deaggro Knock Away. Hunters shined because they could drop all aggro in the blink of an eye--I remember our first Broodlord kill had something like 7/8 hunters(or was it 9? it was silly). After a couple of feigns, hunters could go all out and top DPS charts easily while a mage doing more than half the damage of the hunter would pull aggro three minutes into the fight. It wasn't exactly a fun mechanic, though it WAS beatable with a balanced group(we downed him with a fairly balanced group the next week, still full-aggro wipe knockback).

We were among the first in the zone, and what you say worked for you, did not work for us.

Call it what you will, imagining or gate caused, original broodlord showed a distressing amount of FD resists; our hunters were among the worst dps because of it. We always sat in front of the gate and broodlord on his 3rdish tweak suddenly stopped resisting FD as much as normal, otherwise something else was changed. This is not something I'm imagining. You can chalk it up to the mobs behind the gate, but then I'd think something changed with them seeing as how the amount of times pre-tweak and post tweak my FD blares a giant red resist sign went from 99% to never.

The hunters in our guild reported the same, as well as those across other servers who were on broodlord when he was still bugged and ridiculously hard because of aggro. Not many nowadays will be able to tell you how rough the first fights were since it's hard to find a scant few of hunters who actually got to experience the bugged and pre-fix version of Broodlord.

This isn't like me crying that Onyxia deep breaths more often, but when 7 hunters in my guild are screaming that they can't get an FD to go off and then magically after the fix they can, I'd say that's a bit of circumstantial evidence that I'll at least pay attention to.

Originally Posted by dojke

When people were first doing bwl, the prevailng strategy for broodlord was to do slow dps. Fights would take 8-14 minutes, and casters (and even healers) would be overaggoring somewhere around the 7 minute mark. Becuase we did not understand the aggro ceiling, we thought there was an aggro problem and slowed dps on the casters. Hunters shined clearly there, beause they didn't have to slow dps for this strat, becuase of fd. In summary, if you kill broodlord in 11 minutes, your dmgmeters will look something where hunters did twice as much dmg as anyone else.

Ahh, I didn't understand your original wording. ^^

I do agree a bit about "slowing" down. Our mages/warlocks were given a certain point on Broodlord where all casting stopped, and they sat there for approx. 10 seconds to let the tanks gather more aggro than they had, at which point they took to wanding for a bit and then slowly starting the rotation up. By that point it was usually too late as the first couple of frostbolts in would bring Broodlord sailing over to the gate to blast wave the heck out of us.

And I agree with the second comment as well; as soon as a hunter got one FD off they were usually in the clear for a bit of dps that put them well above mages. (Although back then beating a mage on single target dps wasn't hard, with/without FD.)

I remember first doing Broodlord and the ridiculousness of his attacks and biting my nails in nervousness because I was worried I'd have all of my FDs resist and pull him to the gate causing a wipe. We had a few hunters do this, but not many since at the time (and currently) hunters were the red-headed step child and most of us were afraid to add credibility to the hunter stigma of always causing wipes.

Thankfully most of ours were caused by the casters. Disconcertingly enough a good few were priests, and wtf how does a priest get aggro permanently! Man I loved the original Broodlord.

Pyros · 09/29/06, 9:41 AM

Originally Posted by Zurai

Originally Posted by Pyros

Hunters are generally slow to dispel, at least in most guilds I've played with. They blame it on misses and resists, but they're just slow most of the time(it helps having a combat log to show them they actually shot 4secs late so even if they missed, they fucked up to begin with).

Uh... no. Tranq doesn't show up in the combat log until the projectile connects with the boss unless the shot misses. Hits and fails are delayed. Before STranq, I used to use that fact to increase the efficiency of my own tranqing, since I knew that if I fired and didn't immediately see a miss message there was a 99% chance that it was a hit (fail rate seems to be a flat 1% in my experience).

Even if you spam the button so that you fire tranq the exact millisecond the "mob is frenzied" packet is processed by your computer, there's still going to be a half second or more delay before the shot is fired on anyone else's screen and a second or two of flight time and packet lag to everyone else's computer.

There's a difference between half a second and 4seconds. Unless they're shooting their tranq shot from orgrimmar, I doubt it'd take 4secs for it to travel to the boss. As I said in my post, I played a hunter, I quit playing it a bit after chrom, I don't remember ever missing or failing a tranq shot, and I don't remember it beign so hard that I'd need 3secs of preparation before shooting. Obviously, not every hunter is gonna fail that bad, but it happens, and there's pretty much no excuses for those(unless you only have 2tranqers on a fast frenzy fight like flamegor or gluth). However it still happened every single week at least once. in the guilds I was in.

LadyVex · 09/29/06, 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by Pyros

Originally Posted by Zurai

Originally Posted by Pyros

Hunters are generally slow to dispel, at least in most guilds I've played with. They blame it on misses and resists, but they're just slow most of the time(it helps having a combat log to show them they actually shot 4secs late so even if they missed, they fucked up to begin with).

Uh... no. Tranq doesn't show up in the combat log until the projectile connects with the boss unless the shot misses. Hits and fails are delayed. Before STranq, I used to use that fact to increase the efficiency of my own tranqing, since I knew that if I fired and didn't immediately see a miss message there was a 99% chance that it was a hit (fail rate seems to be a flat 1% in my experience).

Even if you spam the button so that you fire tranq the exact millisecond the "mob is frenzied" packet is processed by your computer, there's still going to be a half second or more delay before the shot is fired on anyone else's screen and a second or two of flight time and packet lag to everyone else's computer.

There's a difference between half a second and 4seconds. Unless they're shooting their tranq shot from orgrimmar, I doubt it'd take 4secs for it to travel to the boss. As I said in my post, I played a hunter, I quit playing it a bit after chrom, I don't remember ever missing or failing a tranq shot, and I don't remember it beign so hard that I'd need 3secs of preparation before shooting. Obviously, not every hunter is gonna fail that bad, but it happens, and there's pretty much no excuses for those(unless you only have 2tranqers on a fast frenzy fight like flamegor or gluth). However it still happened every single week at least once. in the guilds I was in.

One of the things I noticed was that hunters who tended to *only* tranq on a boss mod that screamed across their screen that the mob was frenzied were usually those who were slow. Most mods I've seen have a delay from when you see the frenzy emote to when it registers on the mod. Add in a delay for human reaction, and flight time, and that could be the 4 seconds you're thinking of.

I personally always watch for the emote, and anticipate. If all goes well my tranq fires on the exact same timestamp as the frenzy emote registers. If it's slow, a second later, and if I suck, 4 seconds later. The one day I remember ever being horridly late was once on Huhuran when i was on the phone; I was only semi paying attention and realized it was my turn for tranq and it ended up being slow. But it seemed like an eternity after the emote that I fired. 4 seconds is a longggg time.

Also, if hunters are just spamming shots and their frenzy rotation comes up, it's possible they have to wait for global cooldown as well.

Bender · 09/29/06, 10:40 AM

The only tranq fight I haven't yet done is Gluth. We want to take ouro down, then move on to PW and abo wing so hopefully it isn't that far off. Unless there is some strange tranq mechanic that makes gluth alot different from all the other tranq fights my first thought would be hunter slacking. On all tranq fights we have the shot in the air the second the frenzy starts. Sometimes we slack off like yesterdays BWL clear when we underestimated flamegor and just said "tranq when you want and pwn him!". Very bad idea. We didn't wipe but he had at least 1-2 pulses every frenzy the first 4-5 or so, because everyone had cooldown or someone not tranqing because he didn't think it was his turn etc. If we have our rotation set up we tranq instantly though. I don't think I ever had a failed tranq. I don't know what causes it but it happens sometimes to us and always the same people when it does. If the next hunter in the rotation is on the ball he should fire quickly after the first one failed.

KraJee · 09/29/06, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by Hypothraxer

Originally Posted by KraJee

Gluth has a 10 second frenzy timer so it isn't really practical to use 2 groups of tranqing hunters (as mentioned previously). So as the fight progresses (assuming you have humanly reaction times) Gluth will be frenzied longer and longer since cooldowns are going to get offset from his frenzy. Another important thing to note about this encounter is that Gluth frenzies every 10 seconds independently of when he actually gets tranqed. If you tranq him after he's been frenzied for 6 seconds, it's going to be 4 seconds until you see frenzy again.

That's the case for all mobs that can frenzy - it's not exclusive to Gluth. Try Flamegor with two hunters and you will see the exact same thing.

You can tranq Huhuran and Chromag with two hunters. It's pretty dependent upon the boss and their frenzy timer.

Originally Posted by Arawethion

Also, is it definitely 10s on Gluth? I stole my numbers from LV, which used 9.

I can't be 100% sure, but it seems to be 10s from my perspective. SimpleTranq also times the time between frenzies, and it always shows 10s on my screen. It could be off just as easily as LV could, though.

Rabid Rob · 09/29/06, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by LadyVex

Call it what you will, imagining or gate caused, original broodlord showed a distressing amount of FD resists; our hunters were among the worst dps because of it. We always sat in front of the gate and broodlord on his 3rdish tweak suddenly stopped resisting FD as much as normal, otherwise something else was changed. This is not something I'm imagining. You can chalk it up to the mobs behind the gate, but then I'd think something changed with them seeing as how the amount of times pre-tweak and post tweak my FD blares a giant red resist sign went from 99% to never.

The hunters in our guild reported the same, as well as those across other servers who were on broodlord when he was still bugged and ridiculously hard because of aggro. Not many nowadays will be able to tell you how rough the first fights were since it's hard to find a scant few of hunters who actually got to experience the bugged and pre-fix version of Broodlord.

This isn't like me crying that Onyxia deep breaths more often, but when 7 hunters in my guild are screaming that they can't get an FD to go off and then magically after the fix they can, I'd say that's a bit of circumstantial evidence that I'll at least pay attention to.

Actually, this was due to the mobs behind the gate somehow being a part of the FD check. Once we figured out to never go in front of the gate, FD'ing actually became reliable, phew!

When I was playing Survival, I only had 1 point in Improved FD, and it helped tremendously in these types of situations, with lots of mobs running around. I really miss having a reliable FD!

LadyVex · 09/29/06, 1:11 PM

Originally Posted by Rabid Rob

Originally Posted by LadyVex

Call it what you will, imagining or gate caused, original broodlord showed a distressing amount of FD resists; our hunters were among the worst dps because of it. We always sat in front of the gate and broodlord on his 3rdish tweak suddenly stopped resisting FD as much as normal, otherwise something else was changed. This is not something I'm imagining. You can chalk it up to the mobs behind the gate, but then I'd think something changed with them seeing as how the amount of times pre-tweak and post tweak my FD blares a giant red resist sign went from 99% to never.

The hunters in our guild reported the same, as well as those across other servers who were on broodlord when he was still bugged and ridiculously hard because of aggro. Not many nowadays will be able to tell you how rough the first fights were since it's hard to find a scant few of hunters who actually got to experience the bugged and pre-fix version of Broodlord.

This isn't like me crying that Onyxia deep breaths more often, but when 7 hunters in my guild are screaming that they can't get an FD to go off and then magically after the fix they can, I'd say that's a bit of circumstantial evidence that I'll at least pay attention to.

Actually, this was due to the mobs behind the gate somehow being a part of the FD check. Once we figured out to never go in front of the gate, FD'ing actually became reliable, phew!

When I was playing Survival, I only had 1 point in Improved FD, and it helped tremendously in these types of situations, with lots of mobs running around. I really miss having a reliable FD!

It's quite possible that's all it was, I don't disagree, but if that's the case then the FD check applying to all mobs behind the gate has been changed since we still stand in front of the gate and I no longer have the FD resist rate I used to. Like I said, *something* about the area has changed, whether the mobs behind the gate or Broodlord, but there is a much noticable difference.

With that said the only time Ive ever been in a different position for BL is with my priest, and on that character it's not near a necessity.