Solaris

This Excel sheet compares the melee DPS of Shamans, Paladins and Druids with the BC talents, as they are known right now. I had to make some assumptions about stats which are not known and can’t be derived from the Curse spell database, such as the Cat base DPS at level 70, the new ranks of Judgements, the proc rate of Shamanistic Rage, the actual mechanic of the new Windfury etc.
I didn’t know a lot about the Paladin mechanics and had to get my knowledge from sources such as wowwiki, so it may very well be that I made some mistakes there. Generally the numbers should only give a general idea rather than be completely accurate. For example, the haste modifiers from items/buffs should be multiplicative, two 1% haste enchants are actually 2,01% haste and the Flurry formula is generalized, but it’s accurate enough.
For the stats I assumed 2000 AP, 400 strength, 200 agility, 20% crit, 6% hit, iLvl 89 weapons and modified these stats by the talents such as Heart of the Wild etc. For the target I assumed a level 63 mob with 20% mitigation after Sunder. All of this, as well as the talents, can be changed by editing the blue fields.
If you find any mistakes either in the formulas or the skill patterns (i.e. should a Paladin use another Seal to maximize PvE DPS?), please let me know.

http://www.savefile.com/files/128845 (version 0.4 with Ele Shaman and Balance Druid)

 

Skiace

why did you only assume 1 point in Unleashed rage, 1 point in Weapon mastery, and 2 points in elemental weapons for the Enhancement shaman? i would think a pve shaman duel wield build would look something like this: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent-bc=GZxVcbVMsEzqZx0ex

on a more general note, those numbers are interesting in comparison to each other.

 

enshula

Interisting.

Off the top of my head assuming JotC is spell and physical attacks then it should add something like 14 dps to each of 15 people for 210 bonus raid dps.

For druid there is 3% bonus dps for 4 people in the group so 84 bonus there.

Shaman seems to get 41 dps itself from unbridled rage so thats 164 extra maybe. Im not certain how to calc windfury vs grace of air so i wont try but unless it was a 2 shaman group the shaman would lose some self dps. But if windfury is better than air for the other 4 members its worth looking into the talented benefit of 30%.

shaman 731 +164 = 895

druid 654 +84 = 734

paladin 481 +210 = 691

Interisting the way you added in HoW dps. I presume you assumed it would be usable ~20% of the time.

These numbers are the dps gain from the hybrids speccing for dps and dpsing btw not the total dps contribution so ignore things like BoM and talented BoM since both are doable with only 20 points in retribution.

 

enshula

Skjace i assumed 1 point was actually 1 for his calculation terms as changing it to 5 made dps go very high when i doubt it should have such effect.

So 1 was probably 5 point not 1 point.

 

Ragnor

It's an interesting comparison,.

For paladins, in practice with ap/crit gear chain casting HoW (1.5sec cast time) at 20% would do alot less damage then auto attack + soc proc w/ optional joc when the cd is up.

Looks like dw shaman will be pretty good dps but unless they get some % innate threat reduction like zerker stance, catform and rogues get they're going to die alot.

The universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements. Energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest.

www.retpaladin.com

 

enshula

This spreadsheet shows it adding under 17 dps so could be accurate.

Hammer of Wrath
30 yd range300 Mana
1.000 sec cast

Hurls a hammer that strikes an enemy for 1313-1688 Holy damage. Only usable on enemies that have 20% or less health.

Probably using this info to calc it. Im not certain that one is going to be used but it does look like the cast time got a buff from 1.5 seconds to 1 second.

I just checked for execute and got this......

Execute
Rank 7
Requires Level 70
5 yd range150 Rage
Instant cast

Attempt to finish off a wounded foe, causing 925 damage and converting each extra point of rage into 0 additional damage. Only usable on enemies that have 20% or less health.

 

ildon

No Shamanistic Rage? Too bad it's not passive. ;)

 

Skiace

i'm not that impressed with it so far. untill we get more details about the procrate, there's just too many other places to put that point. besides, a DW raiding shaman will regen absolutely rediculous amounts of mana from judgement of wisdom.

 

Solaris

In those cases 1 point stands for the full talent with 5 points. But you are right, this is counter-intuitive and not consistent with the rest of the sheet, I should change that.

It's hard to quantify the group/raid buffs, 2% crit means more for a fire mage than a frost mage, a Fury DW Warrior can use the 10% AP bonus far better than an Arms Warior.
For the HoW I assumed it would be usable 10% of the time. The last 20% of a mobs HP should be going down pretty quick, seeing as Mages and Hunters will get their own pseudo executes.


I'm not so sure about that. Protection Warriors seem to be getting a very strong skill with Devastate and Tranquil Air will most likely stack with Salvation (or it would be pointless). Of course it could be that the BC bosses will be extremely nervous aggro-wise to balance this out.


That one looks like a mob ability to me, I used http://www.curse-gaming.com/en/wow/s...-of-wrath.html

 

enshula

10% sounds good. Does it increase dps by 17 during that 10% or by 170 during that 10% averaging to 17?

Yes the crit varies from say .33% extra assuming 0% resist 150% base crit and 50% damage added on a crit. 0% if only abilities which cannot crit are used such as shadoword pain. To something like 4.8% assuming something unlikely like 75% miss/dodge/parry, 0% starting crit and impale for 120% damage. (thinking of mob abilities which increase miss rate by a lot here)

For melee in an optimal dps situation i would expect maybe .75% increase in dps from 1% crit so yes the paladin and druid ones could probably go down from that, and the shaman one would require dual wielders to get such a large bonus from AP, possibly hunters. But overall the numbers should be relatively comparable as i just picked a notional number of 700 dps then added the appropriate percent.

And they stay in the same order you had them in anyway :)

 

Rabid Rob

Rockbiter is getting changed so that it doesn't give AP directly, it just raises the weapon it's on by the same amount.

In a similar vein, Windfury is being changed, and it may not give extra strikes, just extra damage on hit equivalent to that. No procs, but more likely to get a full critted windfury.

I don't think Earth shock is viable, or Rockbiter, at least until shamans and tanks have more experience.

You might add in the Flame shock + DOT, if there really is a bucket of mana from JoW like that (zowie!), the safest cycle of shocks may be frost/fire.

 

mynciboi

Interesting spreadsheet, thanks for sharing this.

It looks like you made the crit/miss/glance equations multiplicative, I was under the impression that attacks couldn't crit and glance at the same time? I notice in the rogue DPS sheets elsewhere on the the forum they work out what percentage will miss/dodge/glance/crit and hit (where hit% is the remainder), work out how much average damge is delt in each case and then add them up...

I'll have to compare this with my own calcs on monday, don't have access to Excel atm :-(

Also, if I'm reading this right you have your shaman using earthshock, wont this give aggro problems?

 

Rabid Rob

glancing blows cannot crit, correct. See:
http://www.wowwiki.com/Formulas:Weapon_Skill

Note the percentage of total blows converted to glancing blows does not decrease, but the amount glancing reduces damage does.

 

Solaris

170 during that 10%, so 17 over the whole fight.

I doubt that the DoT ticks can proc JoW, but since Flame Shock has a better mana efficiency and DPS it's still a good idea to alternate Frost and Flame Shock. As for the new Windfury, for the time being I just assume the worst case, 2 white attacks instead of 3 (so it's still subject to glancing and the DW miss rate, but procs Flurry, Shamanistic Rage, JoW etc less often).

You are absolutely right about the way miss/dodge/glance/crit/hit work, changed that in the sheet (I hope it's correct now). I just listed Earth Shock in brackets to show how much damage it would do in conjunction with Stormstrike (2x20% damage bonus), but it isn't included in the DPS totals.

 

◊ Oggie

Sorry, is this alpha info or mentioned by a Blue or something?

 

Kasonic

Those weapon changes sound really weak. Extra swings is the whole point of Windfury, and why it's cool! Where did you hear this?

 

Demetrius

Question: How does the dual wield enhancement shaman in BC compare with the other dps classes in BC? If the Shaman is 731 dps what can we expect from the dps warriors/rogues/mages/locks/hunters? I know this is just theorycraft but I am just curious what the damage meters will look like then ...

 

Solaris

"Imbue the Shaman's weapon with wind. Each hit has a 20% chance of dealing additional damage equal to two extra attacks with 445 extra attack power. Lasts for 5 minutes."

That's the version of Windfury currently on the Test Servers. Depending on the implementation it could either be a slight nerf (less procs) or a substantial buff (no glancing / DW miss rate against bosses).

You have to remember that I used completely arbitrary stats in the sheet, after all we don't know what the hybrid itemization will look like in BC. But if the itemization is solid I guess Enhancement Shamans and Feral Druids can push at least 70% of the damage of a geared Fury Warrior, which in combination with the buffs and heals will make them a valuable addition to a raid.

 

panny

If that Windfury change goes through, OH WF proccing the MH will probably be fixed. Less Unleashed Rage/Flurry procs, more burst for PvP (critrate^2, instead of critrate^3 for the 'triple WF'). I didn't consider the glancing blows/miss rate though, you think the additional attack will be "yellow"?

Edit: fixed something

Fix Spirit Wolves not responding to commands.
DK/Rogue

 

Khalim

Pretty poorly actually if this is close to the dps they will put out at lvl 70, I mean I can put out this dps now and if I'm not hitting over 1000 at lvl 70 I'm going to be disapointed. Theorycrafting using Deathwings spreadsheet, only useing the best Naxx items today, both paly and sharman buffs, and new ranks of spells most Warrior specs easily get over 1300dps. The top spec I can theorycraft up (27/34/0) hits over 1500 dps.

http://ctprofiles.net/2868856

 

oldmandennis

Aww... I was going to go with a proc based attack - MSO + lifesteal with the elemental deck. OH procing MH would be too much, but this nerf hits flurry pretty hard too.

At least I haven't gotten any of that stuff yet, except about 3 elemenal cards.

 

Feorthas

Well, since the melee dps is kinda meh, why not OH a Hand of Edward the Odd for more caster utility?

Admittedly, I'm not very familiar with shaman skills other than the shocks and whatnot but don't you have some interesting, non-instant cast stuff? (chain heal sounds damn cool, for instance)

I am not your personal Frost Deathknight knowledge base. If you have a simple question, ask in the simple questions thread; if you have a more esoteric, specific, or complicated question, ask in the spec-appropriate thread.

My PM, WoWmail, and, especially, chat boxes are NOT the appropriate places for these questions.

 

oldmandennis

Because this change is nerfing ANY proc on hit weapon for a shaman.

 

Sherriffroot

A little off topic, but a TBC shammy DPS thread shoudl look elemental builds. Unrelenting storm scales nicely and greatly helps with the biggest problem with elemental DPS, being mana.

 

Solaris

Seeing as the formulation is very similar to Seal of Command, it might very well be.

As I said, the values in the sheet are arbitrary. We don't know, how well hybrids are gonna be itemized. I bet your theoretical 1300 DPS Warrior had more than 2000 AP, 25% crit and 6% hit (13% of the 19% come from talents).

Since the proc rate on the Hand is horrible (and when it procs you only have 4 seconds to actually use that proc, which gets eaten by instant casts like Shocks) it would be better to just use a 1H weapon with +healing.

I'll do that, shouldn't take a lot of work. However I can tell you already that Unrelenting Storm will help a BIT, but the problem, that an Elemental Shaman uses his mana for 100% of his DPS as well as healing still stands. An Enhancement Shaman on the other hand can still put out some damage with just auto attacking and use all of his mana for healing. Not to mention that he will have a decent mana regen rate through JoW and Shamanistic Rage.