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10/02/06, 1:51 PM
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#26
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Bald Bull
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Originally Posted by Solaris
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Originally Posted by panny
If that Windfury change goes through, OH WF proccing the MH will probably be fixed. Less Unleashed Rage/Flurry procs, more burst for PvP (critrate^2, instead of critrate^3 for the 'triple WF'). I didn't consider the glancing blows/miss rate though, you think the additional attack will be "yellow"?
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Seeing as the formulation is very similar to Seal of Command, it might very well be.
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Does SoC run off spell crit or melee crit?
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Originally Posted by Solaris
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Originally Posted by panny
Pretty poorly actually if this is close to the dps they will put out at lvl 70, I mean I can put out this dps now and if I'm not hitting over 1000 at lvl 70 I'm going to be disapointed. Theorycrafting using Deathwings spreadsheet, only useing the best Naxx items today, both paly and sharman buffs, and new ranks of spells most Warrior specs easily get over 1300dps. The top spec I can theorycraft up (27/34/0) hits over 1500 dps.
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As I said, the values in the sheet are arbitrary. We don't know, how well hybrids are gonna be itemized. I bet your theoretical 1300 DPS Warrior had more than 2000 AP, 25% crit and 6% hit (13% of the 19% come from talents).
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I think you messed up there, that was Khalim that said that, not me. :]
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10/02/06, 1:59 PM
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#27
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Great Tiger
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Originally Posted by panny
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Originally Posted by Solaris
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Originally Posted by panny
If that Windfury change goes through, OH WF proccing the MH will probably be fixed. Less Unleashed Rage/Flurry procs, more burst for PvP (critrate^2, instead of critrate^3 for the 'triple WF'). I didn't consider the glancing blows/miss rate though, you think the additional attack will be "yellow"?
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Seeing as the formulation is very similar to Seal of Command, it might very well be.
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Does SoC run off spell crit or melee crit?
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Melee, as does Hammer of Wrath.
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10/02/06, 2:05 PM
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#28
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Piston Honda
Human Paladin
Silver Hand
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SoC is melee crit, scaled by spell damage (yes pallys are weird)
So it uses melee hit and melee crit, can be dodge parried etc, is unreistable holy damage that gets a (20%?) Boost from + damage on gear.
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10/02/06, 2:13 PM
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#29
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Don Flamenco
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Originally Posted by Rabid Rob
Rockbiter is getting changed so that it doesn't give AP directly, it just raises the weapon it's on by the same amount.
In a similar vein, Windfury is being changed, and it may not give extra strikes, just extra damage on hit equivalent to that. No procs, but more likely to get a full critted windfury.
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this would be a strike against Unleashed rage and mana regen from JoW, which is unfortunate. if shaman struggle to keep UR up all the time with this new windfury, then that forces more weapon limitations on them, as they'll need the fastest weapons they can find to keep the buff up.
i think overall it's a buff to WF in PvP, but possibly a nerf in PvE depending on the final mechanics.
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10/02/06, 6:28 PM
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#30
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Purple Idiot
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Originally Posted by Solaris
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Originally Posted by Sherriffroot
A little off topic, but a TBC shammy DPS thread shoudl look elemental builds. Unrelenting storm scales nicely and greatly helps with the biggest problem with elemental DPS, being mana.
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I'll do that, shouldn't take a lot of work. However I can tell you already that Unrelenting Storm will help a BIT, but the problem, that an Elemental Shaman uses his mana for 100% of his DPS as well as healing still stands. An Enhancement Shaman on the other hand can still put out some damage with just auto attacking and use all of his mana for healing. Not to mention that he will have a decent mana regen rate through JoW and Shamanistic Rage.
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This may be off topic for this thread, but I'm not sure about the above statement. Two things. One, there have been discussions in other threads about how the existing itemization allows elemental shamans to heal thier assignments and still do 1/5th the dps of a rogue and how in hybrid friendlier content like aq40 that can be helpful. In a lot of new content there seems to be a larger movement component to the encounters. I think that the constant movement would make for a lot of positioning problems for an enhancement/healing shaman hybrid, staying in effective melee range of a moving boss while periodically firing off 1.5 second heals seems cumbersome. An elemental shaman should have less problem with movement. Two, mana, clearly the itemization for healing and for elemental greatly overlap where as between enhancement and healing they do not. I've never played with Judgement of Wisdom so I cant attest for the amount it will help this situation, but I can say that I would be wary of a hybrid enhancement/healing shaman that takes shamanistic rage over Nature's Swiftness.
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10/02/06, 6:42 PM
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#31
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Don Flamenco
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Originally Posted by GoG
I've never played with Judgement of Wisdom so I cant attest for the amount it will help this situation, but I can say that I would be wary of a hybrid enhancement/healing shaman that takes shamanistic rage over Nature's Swiftness.
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when people say the regen potential for a dual wield shaman from Judgement of Wisdom is massive, they really mean it. we're talking on the order of 300 mana/5 seconds. And that's from the current level Judgement of Wisdom. (Although if the Windfury mechanic is changed as indicated earlier in this thread, that regen number goes down a bit.) I get what you're saying about elemental/resto synergy vs. enhancement/resto synergy, but the mana regen potential is just so good that it's difficult to overlook.
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10/02/06, 7:02 PM
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#32
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Soda Popinski
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That druid DPS is pretty abysmal. Having nothing to counter glancing blows is a pretty big problem that Blizzard probably won't do anything about for a long time.
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10/02/06, 8:54 PM
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#33
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Great Tiger
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1500 DPS for a DPS Warrior?
I'm sure I'm not the only one who is hoping that Blizzard takes a good hard look at scaling issues.
You're only gaining 10 levels. But you're saying that you're able to gain say a 76% DPS increase (if you assume 850 DPS currently)...
I'm all for classes getting buffed but that sort of DPS increase is just silly. It leaves other classes in the dust.
For comparison I computed a Shadow Priest's DPS over a typical boss fight with Naxx level gear, *full* consumeables, and raid buffs and I was looking at around 720ish DPS.
Priests are healers right? All of our trees have some DPS talents. One is mostly concerned with DPS. We're a 2-role class just like Warriors.
Doing under half the DPS seems rather...silly.
I'd be looking for some sort of nerf to Warrior DPS if it's true that they're hitting 1500. Something nearer to 1000 DPS would be more in line with a jump from 60 to 70.
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10/03/06, 10:18 AM
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#34
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Von Kaiser
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Originally Posted by Vinsent
So it uses melee hit and melee crit, can be dodge parried etc, is unreistable holy damage that gets a (20%?) Boost from + damage on gear.
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And 29% from +holy damage.
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Originally Posted by Skiace
this would be a strike against Unleashed rage and mana regen from JoW, which is unfortunate. if shaman struggle to keep UR up all the time with this new windfury, then that forces more weapon limitations on them, as they'll need the fastest weapons they can find to keep the buff up.
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An Enhancement Shaman should have good enough equipment to keep up Flurry most of the time, which makes UR almost a non-issue, regardless of weapon speed (of course, weapon speed still does have a massive impact on other procs like JoW).

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Originally Posted by GoG
This may be off topic for this thread, but I'm not sure about the above statement. Two things. One, there have been discussions in other threads about how the existing itemization allows elemental shamans to heal thier assignments and still do 1/5th the dps of a rogue and how in hybrid friendlier content like aq40 that can be helpful. In a lot of new content there seems to be a larger movement component to the encounters. I think that the constant movement would make for a lot of positioning problems for an enhancement/healing shaman hybrid, staying in effective melee range of a moving boss while periodically firing off 1.5 second heals seems cumbersome. An elemental shaman should have less problem with movement. Two, mana, clearly the itemization for healing and for elemental greatly overlap where as between enhancement and healing they do not. I've never played with Judgement of Wisdom so I cant attest for the amount it will help this situation, but I can say that I would be wary of a hybrid enhancement/healing shaman that takes shamanistic rage over Nature's Swiftness.
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You are right that Enhancement Shamans can't be 100% effective in every fight, but only few classes/specs can. And the itemization doesn't need to overlap, you can always wear some +healing pieces (mana regen is fine already as the poster below pointed out)
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Originally Posted by Elog
First of all I believe in the enhacement shammy for raiding. However, there are limitations to such a shammy. First of all, it seems threat will be the real threshold for DPS - not itemization/abilities. Secondly, the heal role will will hampered by the lack of +heal - not mana per se. So I do not see this Shammy heal more than in emergency situations in a very mana inefficient way (which will still help - but the DPS:heal ratio will be very tilted towards DPS).
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Shamans and Druids are hybrids, not pure DPS classes. Why not wear some items to counter those weaknesses with a few +healing items? I have to say that I like the new Feral/Enhancement talents a lot. I played a Druid and a Shaman a long time ago, but got frustrated with the fact, that the hybrid trees were simply not effective in the end. In my opinion now the Feral and Enhancement trees are what they should have been all along. A Feral automatically gets +healing with Str, a Shaman gets more mana regen the higher his melee stats are. If the Feral Druid wears some mana regen and the Shaman wears a few +healing items, they have decent DPS, can buff and at least keep their group alive.
As requested I uploaded a new version with Elemental Shamans and Balance Druids.
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10/03/06, 9:13 PM
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#35
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Piston Honda
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Originally Posted by Althor
1500 DPS for a DPS Warrior?
I'm sure I'm not the only one who is hoping that Blizzard takes a good hard look at scaling issues.
You're only gaining 10 levels. But you're saying that you're able to gain say a 76% DPS increase (if you assume 850 DPS currently)...
I'm all for classes getting buffed but that sort of DPS increase is just silly. It leaves other classes in the dust.
For comparison I computed a Shadow Priest's DPS over a typical boss fight with Naxx level gear, *full* consumeables, and raid buffs and I was looking at around 720ish DPS.
Priests are healers right? All of our trees have some DPS talents. One is mostly concerned with DPS. We're a 2-role class just like Warriors.
Doing under half the DPS seems rather...silly.
I'd be looking for some sort of nerf to Warrior DPS if it's true that they're hitting 1500. Something nearer to 1000 DPS would be more in line with a jump from 60 to 70.
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Its all theorycraft at the moment, Deathwings warriors spreadsheet is pretty accurate at the moment, and he has made efforts to simulate level 70 conditions with known ranks of new spells and using the best naxx itemisation at the moment as a proxy for say early lvl 70 before raiding items. That dps was also assuming raid buffed with both paly and sharman spells (windfury adds a lot of dps to warriors) and basic consumables such as mongoose, giants and sharpening stones.
The theoretical expansion warrior under those conditions had 2.5k AP, 39% crit and 12% hit, these numbers may be compleatly unreachable, especially the crit due to the change to ratings.
My point was that the dps in the spreadsheet posted by the OP so far does not seem to justify a hybrids dps at the momement as it barely meets the dps done by level 60 dps classes at the moment. Unless of course the fights require a lot of healing in one phase and then very little in another allowing the hybrid to dps. Personally I think you would be better taking a specialist dps class (and I include fury warriors in this) and a healing speced sharman/paly/druid. But thats my opinion and its all speculation and theorycraft at the moment. We will see for sure in a few months.
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http://ctprofiles.net/2868856
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