What are the best practices for founding a guild? What questions should the future GM have asked himself? What are the right and wrong reasons to be starting a guild? What questions should he be prepared to answer for others? What should he be prepared to do? What can he expect? How should he or she spend his first 45 days? What are the pitfalls that threaten his success?

Theorycraft backed up with your reasoning is welcome. Actual experience would be invaluable.

If thinking about it in the specific will help, we can use me as a case study. I'm thinking about starting a guild. I know why I want to start a guild. I've set the goals for the guild I want to establish. I know what kind of people I'm pursuing an idea for the loot system we'll use (which does not include bonuses for roles filled).

I have a recruiting strategy. I have a marketing strategy. I have a web site, even though I have no idea how to use it. I let my Ventrillo server lapse, but I can reactivate it at my leisure.

So, besides writing up these details, what else do I need to be doing? What else do I need to consider? I'm leaving out the details on purpose so we don't get too bogged down in my theortical guild and can focus on the generalities as it is likely that my guild will not be the last one ever to be founded.

If the initial membership of your guild is your friends, and then you begin recruiting, try to stamp out any clique based drama early.

1) Have the website and ventrillo server waiting for your new guild. The best way to get people started using them early is to have them available immediatly. Make sure that everyone you guild is capable of running the ventrillo software (our server isn't compatable with Mac's. At the moment we weed out mac users during trial periods since they can't get in- but origionally we tried to make exceptions. Don't. Yes it's inconvenient- but whatever.) and that everyone knows how to get to a guild website and how to use it. Have website registration one of the starting points if possible (make registration as simple as possible though) so that people have put a small commitment into the guild already and are familiar with and can access the website.

2) Have valid information on the forums (you DO have forums right? If not- chop chop. Get to it) in each of the subforums. Make sure it's relevant information and the start of your stickies. Solid forums categories we use:

-General- open access to all registered members, like this forum is on EJ. This gives a semi private place for other guilds to contact you and friends of the guild to chat with members. Ours is kinda dead, but sometimes we have visitors drop by and it's nice to ahve a home for them outside of the recruit forum.
-New Recruits and Potential Members- Stickies: About Rebirth Skywall (a blurb on our goals etc), Application Form (along with informaiton on how to get our required attunements done and basic rules), Recruitment Status (Just a short simple post with open classes)
-Request access- Could probably be rolled into the recruits forum, but we like consolidating them in one place.

-Guild Discussion- Stickies: Recent policy changes, The "Go To" List (a list of guild officers and what thier duties are). Everything from burning crusade information to tips about the best kinds of videocards. If people want to talk it over with thier guildmates, they come here.
-RGP Discussion- Stickies: Item Costs (and links to all items), The Newbies Guide to RGP (a very basic FAQ and run down of our looting policy), That's Mathematics! (A dissertation on the mathematics behind our points system- nothing that is critical to know, but lots of stuff that people can look into if they want advanced knowledge of the system), Nexus Crystal Request Policy (because the number of available nexus crystals changes based on our supply), Alt RGP policy. This forum serves as a place to get all the information about looting and is also a place for peopel to report errors on the dkp site (it happens) to ask questions and to get additional information. (What happens when the moon is waning and a dog howls at midnight while I bid on my 4th pair of bracers at downgrade....)
-Recruit Evaluation- Stickies: The Golden Rule (What is said in this forum stays in this forum. Details of what you are and are not allowed to talk to recruits about (essentially, you can suggest ways to improve preformance but don't go saying Suzie says you SUCK!), and what the consequences are for breaking the golden rule.), What you can do to help evaluate recruits (Go on instance runs with them, pick thier brains, talk to them etc). We copy applications over and as for member feedback from thier trial runs. We don't have a member vote system- officer selection of new recruits is the final word- but we do want feedback and use feedback to help make those judgements.

-Raids- Stickies: The "I cannot make a raid this week" Thread (absolutly essential imo for keeping track of who's going on vacation when, who's taking a night off for wife aggro etc), BWL Alt Approval Thread (players have to meet certain gearing standards to bring thier alts to BWL- this is the thread where they post thier stats and get approved), AQ Scepter Chain Thread (listing everyone on the head quest and thier current progression through it), The "Everything Crafted" Thread (NR, FrR, T3 mats lists), and whatever strategy we need illustrated and easily accessed. At the moment we're keeping C'Thun stickied for the new recruits, and it looks like someone forgot to take down Anub'Rekhan and sticky the Patchwerk/Heigan/Gluth threads. This is the forum where we theorycraft for upcoming encounters, spread strat pictures and post raid specific tips, tricks, and talks. We've got a thread about advanced potting strategies, how to farm SM for gravemoss, and signup sheets for all optional raids, etc etc etc.
-Class Discussion- No stickies, note in the forum description that all threads must post the class in the title. This is where people post new specs, ask about how to up thier efficiency, share class specific macros, and share interesting threads from places like EJ so thier not-quite-as-adventurous fellow classmates can easily find relevant theorycrafting.

-Officer discussion- Has sub forums for our 4 councils (we have a council system to split the workload) and is where we talk about all that super secret stuff like can we recruit one extra priest and pretend they're a druid. >.>
-Archive- The trash heap, essentially. Only the abuse council and website admins can access the trash heap and fish stuff out if it got lost. Otherwise it's considered gone into the void. (so... much... trash in there...)

3) Write down a few things for your own information.
-Goals. Make some broad and some specific. Rebirth's motto: We kill dragons. Our specifics deal with how we're a PvE guild with a focus on raiding at the 40 man level while keeping a good image on server, minimizing the drama, and progressing at a reasonable pace.
-Rules. This should take you a while. If you put it all out at the start and leave nice spots for changes you may need to make, you've got the start of a workable charter. This is our charter: http://www.rebirthed.com/Rebirthv2/i...d=22&Itemid=29
It's a very very long document at this point because it covers everything from loot rules for organized 5 man content runs, to how to make a formal complint against one (or more) of the officers, to the details of how alternates are treated for raiding content, to how officers are selected. At startup you should have something similar to the Leadership Positions and Responsibilities section and to the Membership Ranks section. That you should know before you start bringing additional people into the guild. Everything else can be added in later, but the more you start with, the more solid your foundation can be. The more you start with before you add in officers- the more basic rules you can make that please you without ruffling feathers. Type it up nice and pretty and put it somewhere out of the way on your website. You don't want to scare people off with an 18 page document, by the same token you want them to be able to access it when they have questions. It should be public so your apps can stumble on it if they want to. I've found that my guild members are happier being able to ask questions and having one of the officers answer them about points rather than facing down a policy book. They know it's there, but trust us to tell them if they ask on the fly. Main change policy is pretty important to have, but it's not something your average guild member is going to need to know.

Once you have your pretty little nest set up, with a solid marketing and recruitment strategy you're set to start recruiting.

I was toying with dissecting Bekah's post in piecemeal but decided against it on grounds of being cowed by the cyclopean enormity of her impending and doubtless well-articulated response.

I kid. :wub:

Regardless, I think the above is solid advice if you're looking solely into the administrative framework that comes with manhandling a group of some sixty simians all pressing individual demands. The main issue you're going to have as a new guild on an established realm is a lack of brand recognition. To not mince words: you're hawking a product. There's very little of the romantic about it. Your initial pool of applicants will be thin and will certainly be flawed. Most will be the dregs, the forum warriors who still pug Strat and don't know the str->dps conversion ratio. They will not be members of high-tier guilds for whatever reason and won't be part of tight-knit clans who have some other draw not based on progression. Find the common link, be it hierarchal stability or pvp competence or just a like-minded group who've grown beyond Furor-ridden emo rage. Sell the vision.

A guild is a more tenuous thing than people realize, with most real permanence based on ephemerals of character. Everything is in who you trust to share your time with. Recruit with that in mind. Above all else, look for applicants who have that admirably silent trait of being willing to put education ahead of ego or clique 'justice.' There is no doubt in my mind that the retention and harmony (heh) of guilds like EJ arises from the relative depth and complexity of their members. You can post a wholly random thread about beer connoisseurship and people will admit to having trawled the entirety of the States sampling alcohol. Many have wives, most have degrees. Learn to see past paper crane applicants who tailor generic carbon-copy applicantion that try too hard to not offend or try too little to impress. Look for character.

Don't accept anyone you otherwise would not based on progression necessity, skewed class ratios or a need for a "core" group of members. Don't accept anyone who is either unwilling to learn or unable to prove what they believe with math. Either/or.

Realize that you're expendable and should be expendable. You're not the intermediary between crystalized Gods and their mortal-endowed nectar, doled out only to the true prophet. Your role is largely that of a middle manager; you keep the monkeys from throwing feces and hitting each other in the head. You must introduce redundancies into the subordinates below you such that the only thing preventing a "hey, let's make a better splinter guild!" vent mutiny is not just bureaucracy holding members in thrall. Prove yourself worthy of loyalty without taking it for granted and your officers won't just stick around because you're the best way of hedging their bets. They should have skin in the game and should be earnest in doing so.

Granted, this all reads like the social science papers everyone fakes their way through in college while suppressing a gag reflex. But without knowing particulars it's as good as it gets. To conclude: don't craft a congregation. Craft a home.

Edit: There's a handy chance you're fucked proper if you start now, however noble your intentions. TBC in two months is going to severly hamper any guild-related efforts. I would very much so recommend waiting until there's fresh blood come November.

I think the first thing to bear in mind is that to run a sucessful guild can be extremely hard work.

It's almost like a second job for me and one that you don't get paid for to boot.

Many don't realise this. You can see it with each and every boom and bust zerg guild that spam for members and are gone within a month.

My first piece of advice ~ don't do it alone. If you have a small group of players that have simillar ideas and ideals about what a guild is and should be about, then it makes things a lot easier.

Secondly, stick with it. You'll have bad times, we all do.

If you're on a fresh server, half your new guild will race to sixy, three or four of those will burn out and quit, the rest will meander up to sixty over a few more weeks. You'll get there eventually with enough people to run two scholo's with and think 'what the fuck do we do now?'. Don't give up, nothing comes on a plate. Put yourselves about, let people know that you're a friendly bunch and gradually people will gravitate toward you. If you've brought on board good guys, they'll be your fingertips out there, pugging away and potentially bringing in new folk.

Start a guild/player networking channel on your server. Whenever you or your members find people that you like, invite them to it. Makes for a good source of people to party with and often eventually new friends and guildmembers.

Always have a goal. That first goal might be to start ZG. You might struggle to get 20 people, but once people know that you're running something in an organised way (more in a sec), it makes people notice.

Let people know what you're up to. Give your website a front page, tell people your news without being a realm forum nob.

Again, once you reach a goal, set a new one. Find out what it is that your members most want to do, then just start to plan it. Let people know exactly what you and they have to do together to move forwards.

Put things in place that you might not even be near using yet, DKP, raid rules etc.

Get to know your members and what they're good at. Somebody's a web designer? Ruthlessly take advantage of it and get them to build you a site. Get people involved!

Don't try to do everything by yourself! Make sure you have good people in officer positions and make sure each of those has a role that people can see they are actually doing something. Don't create an us and them situation by having people doing sod all in officer positions.

Don't hide in officer chat!

Have a clear guidline about the conduct of the members of your guild, make sure everyone that joins has read it and agrees. If someone's being a wanker, then you can pull them up on it.

Don't burn yourself out. If something's pissing you off or tiring you out, don't let it lie ~ identify it and deal with it.

Be prepared that much of your actual play time might be taken up with being in /tell hell, chasing people, dealing with recruiting and a bazillion other things that will crop up. If sitting on the bank in Orgrimmar answering tells for an hour as soon as you log on isn't your thing, being a GM might not be for you.

Be all knowing. Read up, be it on other classes that you haven't played or encounters that you haven't faced. It'll help you a lot in the long run.

There's a million other things I could put down here, but you'll learn much purely through experience. Lastly I'll just reitterate ~ don't give up. If you have good people in your guild and you're enjoying your playtime, things will eventually happen.

Going from being a guild of 15, never having spammed or advertised for members to having taken down the twin emps and starting on Naxx is one of the most satisfying things that I've done.

Maybe I should get out more.

All the best!

Bekah, thank you for your well-written post. Your charter is exactly what I was hoping for as it will allow me to see what areas I might have not yet thought through. Thank you also for noting which parts I'd need up front and which you believe I can fill in later. How large is Rebirth? Do you have much turn-over? And finally, are you a fellow shadow priest?

Saramin, I've got the vision thing down :). And the release of TBC is what I'm banking on actually. As for my product, I've got me, my values and that vision thing.

I was the first and only PvP raid leader on Bleeding Hollow Alliance side about a year ago. Defiantly independent, I ran cross-guild AVs and ABs all day everyday on my own Ventrillo server. Guildless, I played no favorites, basing on skill and ability to work in a group. A lot of those people went on to become Grand Marshals as well as friends. Two even lead organized groups today, desperately searching for actual competition. And I'm pretty sure many of them, eight maybe as many as twelve, would be willing to write a few words of recommendation in a thread I'll start on the realm forums. Add to their commentary, a handful to maybe another dozen other people willing to say nice things about me once they see the thread going. That should go a long ways to establishing myself as a strong raid leader and decent person.

Combine this with a clear vision: a PvP guild focused on fielding teams that finish in the top ten of each PvP bracket and that sees PvE-ing and making money as simply means to that end. And finally, communicate that maintaining mutual respect, community and fun as the guild's foundation will be at the forefront of my mind. Those last three are my values and the reason why I want to found a guild; I've seen them so often unachieved, ignored or sacrificed in the name of PvE advancement and I want to see if I can do better. I believe PvP will allow me to do this: a) loot is not sum-zero, b) every battleground brings the possibility for a new challenge, and c) responsibility for victories and losses are shared each and every time.

I'll communicate my awareness of problems that come up during a guild's lifecycle. For example, according to several threads on these boards, what has dragged down a lot of guilds is a core carrying deadweight (#14); if you're blessed with strong opposition, PvP allows you to identify quickly who needs coaching.* I'll communicate in detail the loot system and how we'll use a zero-sum dkp system with caps per dungeon to avoid the newbie unfriendliness Maynard discusses in his thread since recruits are the lifeblood as guild's will always experience uncontrollable attrition. I'll explain the reason why we'll only admit people who have a love for PvP is because people with different priorities can only divide one's house (#6).

And, most importantly, I'll communicate that while I value skill, I understand that a guild needs a soul. Building a guild based entirely on the promise of success works great - right up until you start failing (#19)or the parameters change. EJ went almost two months between boss kills; I'm willing to bet people kept showing up raid day after raid day, armor repaired, loaded with consumables ready to give it yet another try. Such a dry spell might have broken a mercenary guild. Souls are such a fleeting thing to pin down, however. I was tossing around an idea titling my marketing post with "Recruiting mature, competitive, intelligent PvPers and their loved ones" or accepting applications for up to three people as an indivisible group to see if that will add stability and make the guild something people want to make work. Not sure whether that's the way to go but that's why I'm here looking for answers.

As for recruiting Saramin, we're on the same wavelength. Look for mature, competitive and intelligent people (#9). By not trying to become the top PvE guild, I can focus on recruiting the right people and not worry whether they're also the right class. I can recruit Horde since good people are good people and they have the time to level if they're willing to reroll. I'm going to market my vision to all the original launch, East Coast PvP servers in hopes of reaching out to those like me who don't simply want to farm honor. Come to think of it, I'll also advertise to all the new PvP servers since the people there are a) wanted a good PvP experience badly enough to start new and b) their mains aren't on transfer cooldown since you can't transfer to new PvP realms for four to six months. I intend to troll mmorpg.com on the forums for any PvP heavy MMOs about to be released. For anyone who loves PvP and doesn't require an FPS, the Arena system will provide it especially since being able to fight people from your own faction in Arenas will reduce wait times dramatically.

As for my timing, I thought about waiting until after the expansion. Guilds are likely to start blowing up in the weeks and months after the expansion because of the lower raiding cap. Additionally, innumerable people will be reactivating their accounts to see what the expansion is like. However, I'm thinking I can hedge my bets. Once I have everything written up and the aforementioned recommendations posted, I can start now, go cross-server with advertising making it clear that I'll be accepting applications for a two or three week window without inviting anyone. See how many people apply, converse with them about their interests, answer any questions they have about me. I even have an idea (#6) on how to lower risk for possible applicants who might be interested in joining me but don't want to do the 6-month cooldown transfer blind. Then, if I feel I have the critical mass, I'll move forward. If I don't, I can postpone it until after the expansion launch off with nothing but a lot of my time wasted and only a little bit of everyone else's.

While this is the the first written articulation of ideas for my guild, it should be obvious I've been thinking about it for a while. Thank goodness Gurgthock writes as well as he leads.

*Up until a week or two ago, I would have said removal, but these threads and a conversation with a friend have persuaded me that you should focus on the quality of people first and their productivity second. EJ advocates and practices coaching - which leads to great threads about beer - while Death and Taxes advocates ruthless efficiency and skill - which leads to game firsts. I'll take the beer.

I have no desire to reinvent the wheel. If you have any more advice to share, I'm eager to hear it. But I do appreciate the advice so far.

Regarding your point about "tell hell", how much of that can be transferred to a forum? Is requiring people to post their grievances on the guild forum unrealistic? Not that I'm trying to brush them off, far from it. But making people post their grievances will a) force them to think through their issue by articulating it and b) allow me to thoughtfully reply to it from work (i.e. not during game time). Or will this simply lead to problems festering because they won't take the time to write up their post until they are angry enough to write dramatic prose or just leave quietly?

On one hand, someone's idea of an emergency might not be my idea of an emergency. On the other, I'm all for open communications as I'm quite capable of explaining my rationale for my actions and quite capable of appreciating criticism and feedback. I'd certainly not want to be the OP - I am by no means criticising Oneiros, just learning from his experience - from the thread above who could only wonder why everyone left. However, he likely did bust his hump answering tell hell for five or six months and despite that, didn't see hint or sign of several imminent departures nor understand why they left after the fact.

How do you open lines of communication for serious give and take without opening the floodgates for trivial communications? Part of that is from recruiting which I'm obviously giving thought to. Part of that will come from a smaller raid cap and therefore a smaller overall guild. Part of that will come from doing fifteen man AB raids, thereby becoming more accessible and perhaps approachable by people. Part of that will come from me eventually removing myself from the role as raid leader and instead focusing on a) recruiting, b) community relations and c) discipline/coaching. Part of that may come from having an Emergency Issues board that I treat as an inviolate area where people should feel free to post well-thought out issues, promise to respond thoughtfully (though not necessarily admit fault or feel compelled to change immediately) within 24 hours and deal harshly with anyone who trivializes the forum.

That last one is an idea I just came up with now and strikes me as a low-cost measure - the time to set up one extra forum and one sticky - that could be part of a defense-in-depth against being blind-sided by guild-killing issues.

I intended it as high praise. If it doesn't communicate that, let me know and I'll re-examine the wording.

Nah its good. Careful or Xi will eat your face though.
Also Beer >>> Ruthless Efficiency fo sho.

Heck, a good guild name would be "Beer!", keeps you close to your roots.
(I think I am going to take my own advice, excuse me.)

I strongly prefer this one: "If you light a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day. If you light a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life."