What are best recruiting practices? With the recent availability of cross-server transfers, we all have a much deeper pool of people to draw from. While the real burden of risk is on the person doing the transferring, the conscionable among us would feel bad about /gkick-ing someone who just transferred to our server but turned out to be not a good fit for your guild. Combine this with the sentiment shared by many that "recruit and cull" is not necessarily the way to go and there becomes a premium on screening well.
What traits do you look for? How do you test for these traits? What are your interview questions?
Ignie Ferroque translates from latin to "with fire & with sword." It is a stock phrase used to describe the results of a destructive raid into an enemy's territory, whose sole purpose is to generate fear, terror, and destruction.
One good technique suggested in another thread was providing access to an account so they could play their character's class on your server. The author noted this requires a high degree of trust, say being sponsored by someone, but it certainly goes a long way towards establishing skill.
Looking for a more scalable method, I wanted to ask whether the following idea might have merit. Designate a server to meet on, have them roll a Horde version of whatever their class is (if they're a Paladin, this won't be feasible till the expansion) and then have them level up to their early teens. Then, starting at level 10, form up a group, jump on Vent and take them through Ragefire Chasm. At level 15, try Wailing Caverns. No level 60s twinking the group, just a number of level appropriate alts for the instance.
What might this show? First, if the person is willing to go through the usual fill out an application, ventrillo interview process, and then level an alt to 10 maybe 15, you know they're serious about applying. Set a time to meet you and see if they're punctual. Then you can see how they act and respond: do they follow orders, do they act immature, can they talk and do their job at the same time. And talk with them so you can get a sense of who they are, they're background, whether they might be a good fit for your guild.
What this might also do, is enlarge the number of possible recruits. While many might not be willing to make the blind jump and transfer servers, some might be willing to invest the time to level an alt to 10 or 15 to have an opportunity to spend time with members of a guild they're thinking about applying to.
While this is not a infallible test for skill, it has been maintained regularly throughout these forums that skill can be taught. And I do believe it will do a better job of testing for willingness to work hard and congeniality than you can see on paper.
What do you think?
Ignie Ferroque translates from latin to "with fire & with sword." It is a stock phrase used to describe the results of a destructive raid into an enemy's territory, whose sole purpose is to generate fear, terror, and destruction.
Im beginning to wonder whether your trying to build forum hype on here or seriously looking for input.
Translation: Are you using this post discussing recruiting as part of a plan to build momentum for the guild you are talking about forming?
If so i have seen that be effective in the past at getting an initial momentum built up.
And for a more serious response i would suggest recruiting heavily while a test server is out that people can make premades on rather than levelling to deadmines or ragefire chasm.
Interesting idea. On the plus side, it gives you an idea of their general comfort level in being able to perform basic gameplay while focusing on another higher-level task; on the downside, it doesn't really give you a good perspective on their knowledge of that class, due to the deficiency of abilities at low levels. As an example: some potential Priest recruit may be a diehard Flash Heal spammer, but you'll never see that deficiency with this test because he won't have Flash Heal to spam, or any other useful alternative methods.
While this is not a infallible test for skill, it has been maintained regularly throughout these forums that skill can be taught.
Following through on this thought, one of the primary things I would look for in a recruit is desire and willingness to improve him/herself as a player. That motivation to master the challenges of the class will likely carry through into an enthusiasm for mastering WoW's content.
About cross-server transfers, if you're involved with recruiting in one of the few guilds that can expect to get such applications:
Why do you feel the responsobility lies with you? Transferring across servers to join up for a trial with another guild is a huge responsobility, and in any case quite the risk, for anybody. What you need to do is ensure that whatever's best for your guild, happens. If that means kicking a x-server applicant, so be it.
As for gauging "intelligence", well ... how about including a test question on your application form which takes the form of a riddle? I'll bring up an example which is on the <Nihilum> app form, they ask you to answer the following question:
You have a three gallon can and five gallon can. You have been asked to take them to the river and return with exactly one gallon. You may not mark the cans, use other measuring devices, or any other means to solve the task except using the two cans, and the amount has to be exactly one gallon. How would you solve it?
It's not very hard, and it shouldn't be. By looking at how somebody answers it you can at least get a feel for his analytical abilities, if you will.
You have a three gallon can and five gallon can. You have been asked to take them to the river and return with exactly one gallon. You may not mark the cans, use other measuring devices, or any other means to solve the task except using the two cans, and the amount has to be exactly one gallon. How would you solve it?
Wasn't that a puzzle in Knights of the Old Republic?
Wasn't that a puzzle in Knights of the Old Republic?
Yeah, and whats interesting it was reguired for LS solution on Manaan :)
Originally Posted by zeidrich
Women's breasts can be modeled as a cone and measured as V = (Db^2*h*.785)/3 and since breasts can be thought of as an amorphous fluid, you just have to worry about containing the volume of the breast.
You have a three gallon can and five gallon can. You have been asked to take them to the river and return with exactly one gallon. You may not mark the cans, use other measuring devices, or any other means to solve the task except using the two cans, and the amount has to be exactly one gallon. How would you solve it?
It's not very hard, and it shouldn't be. By looking at how somebody answers it you can at least get a feel for his analytical abilities, if you will.
The only problem with this specific question is that it's also in Die Hard: With a Vengance.
You have a three gallon can and five gallon can. You have been asked to take them to the river and return with exactly one gallon. You may not mark the cans, use other measuring devices, or any other means to solve the task except using the two cans, and the amount has to be exactly one gallon. How would you solve it?
The only problem with this specific question is that it's also in Die Hard: With a Vengance.
If my memory serves me right the figures in Die Hard 3 are 10 gallons and 3 gallons :)
You have a three gallon can and five gallon can. You have been asked to take them to the river and return with exactly one gallon. You may not mark the cans, use other measuring devices, or any other means to solve the task except using the two cans, and the amount has to be exactly one gallon. How would you solve it?
The only problem with this specific question is that it's also in Die Hard: With a Vengance.
If my memory serves me right the figures in Die Hard 3 are 10 gallons and 3 gallons :)
No it was 3 and 5. "Don't you have kids? That's an elephant joke."
And the next problem is that it takes roughly 30 seconds with google to answer.
The answer to nearly any problem is only a google search away (or some other resource). Even if they have to go look up the answer, at least there was motiviation enough to do so and they knew how to find the answer to a question they didn't know. Knowing how to find an answer (and having the motiviation to do so) is often more helpful than knowing the answer to begin with.
whats up with guilds who think getting into them should be harder than getting a job at google? Its one thing to want people who are geared/skilled, but to demand things like references, a lengthy questionnaire, a voice interview process, etc - LOL, this is a video game not a job.
Always step back and ask if what your doing seems a bit crazy. If someone asked you to join a religion or pay a fee before getting a job, thats probably not a good place to work. Likewise if a guild is paranoid about admitting people and goes to extremes its probably not going to work out in the end.
Every guild can't have 40 people who all are very opinionated and have their own ideas of how things would be, the guild would have constant strife and drama. Need some strong leaders and you really need some people who are willing to listen and execute.
to go back to the original point, a simple app form, a note that anyone who transfers is not at all guaranteed a spot in the guild and it will be based solely on performance, careful reading of app forms by class leaders, recruiting officers who are on top of key metrics (dmg meters, etc) during initiate trials, and just plain common sense is the way to go. If someone plays well and gets along with your guild style thats all that matters. Breaking these rules (girls get in easy, friends of officers, no one to monitor performance, tolerance of asshats, etc) is a surefire way to rot from inside.
Most importantly is a disciplined officer core that keeps raids moving along, handles member problems quickly and fairly, and is very proactive about scheduling/farming/information.
Im beginning to wonder whether your trying to build forum hype on here or seriously looking for input.
Rest assured, I'm actually looking for input. The only reason I have a website is because I made a half-hearted attempt to form a guild at the beginning of the year. I had a Ventrillo server, but it's lapsed. I haven't even broached with my friends the topic of them posting testaments to my ability to lead. I haven't even finalized my decision to postponing my run at a CCIE.
However, I learned the hard way that forming a guild is not something you do on impulse. I did it that way once, five people joined me and then I hit a stall point. I had misread the tea leaves; running a successful guild is not just about putting up a Ventrillo server and a web site. So I talked to everyone, let them know it wasn't going to work, gave them all two nexus crystals and 500g both as a token of my regret at my failure and a symbol of my gratitude in their joining me for that attempt. And then I withdrew from the game for four months.
Now I'm back, waiting around for the expansion. Again the idea of forming a guild has crossed my mind. But this time I'm asking questions intent on making a better go of it this time around. And I'm allowing myself to be persuaded. While I continue to maintain that their outsized contributions should be recognized, I abandoned my ever-so-clever idea on rewarding raid leaders with extra dkp. I'm also being persuaded about the importance of fun and learning why a guild cannot be run like a cross-guild PvP group.
I could avoid mention of the fact that I'm thinking about putting together a guild. However, I've had problems with "the Grand Reveal" in real life before and I'm working consciously to avoid it here since building a guild has an effect on so many people. For those who aren't familiar with the phrase, you can see an example in Rob Pardo's keynote from the Austin Game Conference:
"Beware of the Grand Reveal." This is a pic of a dungeon that was supposed to be in the original release but is in the expansion, because the subteam went off to work on it in a vacuum, disconnected from the rest of the team. The grand reveal was when they came back and showed it. It was supposed to be a raid dungeon but the doors were too narrow. So back to the drawing board it went, three months of redo because we didn’t redo along the way
Elsewhere on this forum, I proposed a guild loot system incorporating a compensation principle you see every day in corporate America. Quite sure of my own genius, it took no fewer than three pages of people calling me an idiot before I thought "maybe it will create more problems than it will solve." But how much better I figure that out here on paper than in the game with real people.
There's no need for me to reinvent the wheel, not when there are so many intelligent people with experiences to share from whom I can learn.
Ignie Ferroque translates from latin to "with fire & with sword." It is a stock phrase used to describe the results of a destructive raid into an enemy's territory, whose sole purpose is to generate fear, terror, and destruction.
Its one thing to want people who are geared/skilled, but to demand things like references, a lengthy questionnaire, a voice interview process, etc - LOL, this is a video game not a job
I'm not asking people to be well geared. I'm not even requiring them to be the most skilled. I am looking for intelligence and attitude because you need both of those to succeed in PvP. You can't simply have people waiting around for orders; they'll have to be able to think on their feet.
As for why I'm looking to invest so much time upfront is because of the investment being made by the recruit. Even when I was gung-ho about about "skill first and only", it still hurt my conscience to think about kicking someone who transferred to my realm for my guild. Now that I intend to make an investment of effort into training up people who might not perform to expectations, I want to make sure they're decent people who are fun to be around.
Originally Posted by Hexel
Why do you feel the responsibility lies with you?
At the end of the day, of course I'd have to remove an incompetent or a raging asshole. Good of the many outweighs the good of the few and all that. Still, it sucks for the guy who transferred, doesn't it? Instead of them possibly finding a home on any of a hundred servers, for six months he's restricted to the guilds on the one server. And if they can't find any suitable alternatives, they might even quit the game. If I can avoid all of that by asking here and now if anyone knows any good questions to ask, why wouldn't I?
Let's see if I can get this thread back on track. Another method of recruiting/marketing is making a video. One poster on a thread on these forums indicated that his guild had not been hurting for recruits after one of his guildies made a video of one of their kills and posted it to a WoW video site. This may attract people, but speaks nothing as to screening them better.
An off the wall idea I came up with a few minutes ago was advertising your guild via a sponsorship of Myndflame's Escape from Ogrimmar video. While I now see that the this window is closed, I'm sure they'll release another high quality video sooner rather than later.
Yet another off the wall idea I came up with was having a Ventrillo 'open house'. To reduce the risk for people thinking about transferring to apply for your guild, you can have a get-to-know-you activity on your Vent server to allow visitors to get a feel for you. Only unestablished, unproven guilds need to do this, but there are a lot of those around. This again falls mostly into the category of marketing instead of recruiting, but still you can tell something about someone if they're willing to go this extra step.
Finally, I could just follow the Team Awesome/For Great Justice model. That guild started as a three man PvP team and turned into a highly successful PvE guild. I may ultimately go this way. However, I don't particularly like the idea of poaching members from other guilds on my server when there might be PvPers guildless on other servers because their guild recently blew up.
Ignie Ferroque translates from latin to "with fire & with sword." It is a stock phrase used to describe the results of a destructive raid into an enemy's territory, whose sole purpose is to generate fear, terror, and destruction.
We don't really make allowances for transfer apps. We will not promise them guild membership. We can't promise that, if they delay, we will still be able to trial them (we had one app who wanted us to hold open recruitment while they made rank 14 from rank 12. With a guild size as small as ours we can't leave open a spot for trialing someone for months...). We judge a transfer app in the exact same fashion that we judge a skywall app and we're very upfront about it. You either make the cut, and welcome to Rebirth, or you don't.
We state on our recruitment forums in a note to transfer apps that we take no more than 50% of the apps we recieve (on average), and often as little as 20% of the apps we recieve. We explain the other options available on Skywall. We explain that we will not be leading world firsts. We explain that there will be much wiping and fustration. If they don't like the options, they don't have to transfer to Skywall, we will muddle along without thier application.
It came down to where we value our goals. We want excellent fits for the guild. We want people who will mesh well with the current atmosphere and who will preform above average. Taking applicants who don't fit in well or who don't preform just because they're transfers feels rather like selling out our goals for a few more warm bodies.
On the other hand, I think it's fair to say that, of the transfers who did thier research and chose Rebirth specifically for thier transfer, we've guilded the vast majority. (Perhaps all) Most of the time when you have someone looking to transfer to your guild specifically (especially on a server like Skywall populated with guilds that aren't well known) they know your rules, they know your goals and they match thier goals well enough to be sure. Those are the people who want to listen in on your vent server while you raid and make alts to talk to all your members- just to be sure. Those are the gold apps that usually turn out beautifully. We've guilded 2 paladins, 1 warrior, 2 warlocks, a mage, a druid, and a priest transfers - and all have fit like puzzle pieces into the guild. Solid players who knew what they wanted out of the guild and knew what we wanted out of them. Transfers, when done right and they're looking just for you, are WONDERFUL.
But I don't think it's necessary to promise guild invites.
I don't think it's necessary to promise trials if they delay for any significant period of time.
It's thier choice, and thier chance. =)
BSG Reference Sheet
in EJBSG 10 -My instincts tell me that we cannot sacrifice democracy just because the president makes a bad decision.
There is a lot of parallel between guild and business recruiting practices. Basically there are about 3 viable models for placement and about 10 solid selection criteria you can use. There are something like 8 practical tests you can use and they you can bring in referencing, minimum requirements, initial down payments or guarantees, there’s quite a list. If you really want I can draw out 3 basic selection plans for new, middle and established guilds. And yes i like marketing and HR as well as wow.
Originally Posted by Adoriele
Fuck Moonkins. Fuck Ret Paladins. Fuck hybrids in general.
The option of letting the recruit use an account seems like a good idea. One of the guys in my guild runs a large powerleveling/gold farming business and they have a program that we use to share accounts with each other in the guild that relays the WoW client/server data while blocking out "harmful" commands such as deleting items and etc. So if you happen to have any decent programmers in the guild, that seems like the best course of action..
The option of letting the recruit use an account seems like a good idea. One of the guys in my guild runs a large powerleveling/gold farming business and they have a program that we use to share accounts with each other in the guild that relays the WoW client/server data while blocking out "harmful" commands such as deleting items and etc. So if you happen to have any decent programmers in the guild, that seems like the best course of action..
Your guild? Except you have "No WoW account" .... Oh, I see, you didn't want to make this post if you had to identify your guild. So you lied in your profile.
Being on Mal'Ganis, people who transfer to our server to tryout for our guild are offered the ability to join about a dozen other high quality guilds if mine doesn't work out. What we tell transfers is, "Yes, we need someone of your class, you have the gear so as long as you are a good player with good capability and can make all our raids, you have good chances". And that's it. Much of the time they transfer and barely show up to raids, so we reject them of course. Most of the time whatever server they transfer from isn't nearly as good as ours in terms of server performance or high end raiding guilds(Which I think Mal'Ganis is in the lead by far with some 9 patchwerk killing guilds)
I can tell you we don't actively recruit members of other guilds while their still tagged, like a certain transfer guild tried to do to about half a dozen of our long time members members ;D
We don't go that deep into personality traits to look for because people don't show their true personality while apping. Beyond what I mentioned above, we're looking for someone who reacts well, learns well(which is really easy to see when you put a Nef killing priest into a full clear of AQ or a 10boss kill night of Naxx) and can talk on vent, but not too much.
I handle the recruitment for SO, and above all I treat everyone with respect and decency, even the newly level 60 who asked me if he could join with T0 and an epic he got lucky on. Some guilds disrespect any applicants and I find that not only obnoxious, but very capable of biting them in the butt later.
09/30/06, 12:21 PM
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