Druid Itemisation: Druid Gear Design - Page 2

Vascariz · 10/02/06, 9:55 AM

The +healing when going out of bear form

The imp Leader of the Pack talent.

Ummm those are actually quite pathetic... very very bad examples. You can go check the druid forums for the maths of why imp leade r of the pack is quite useless and the +healing out of feral only lasts 6 seconds which with lag amounts to about 2-3 healing touch tops.
Ummm so yeah not sure where you are coming from with that.

And "You HONESTLY cant expect to do competitive dps and switch out and heal just like a resto druid/shaman" COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY misrepresents EVERYTHING I have typed. So please read it over.

Kaubel · 10/02/06, 4:57 PM

Originally Posted by Vascariz

You can go check the druid forums for the maths of why imp leade r of the pack is quite useless.

I tried to warn you people. Penalty box, one week.

Once again, don't say something is useless when you've yet to try it out personally. (Really, damn near everything in this world has a purpose at one point or another.) And I know you haven't tried it personally because alpha testers are still bound by the NDA. Lastly, I don't give a shit what "the maths" say over in that circus of retards.

Don't.
Claim.
Untested.
Content.
Is.
Worthless.

mynciboi · 10/02/06, 5:20 PM

The "Maths" that dude cites so enthusiastically is from Tangedyn, *fanfare* theory-crafter extraordinaire! No really he's done some very good stuff. That's not to say he came to exactly the same conclusions as Vascariz though ;-)

IMO ILotP is a great idea, it's just in it's current incarnation the numbers seem a little lackluster. Also the way you get more healing out of the 1st point you put in than the two subsequent points put together seems... odd to me. Anyways I'll be putting 1 point into it.

</furious theorycrafting>

Kruthal · 10/02/06, 6:17 PM

Originally Posted by mynciboi

The "Maths" that dude cites so enthusiastically is from Tangedyn, *fanfare* theory-crafter extraordinaire! No really he's done some very good stuff. That's not to say he came to exactly the same conclusions as Vascariz though ;-)

IMO ILotP is a great idea, it's just in it's current incarnation the numbers seem a little lackluster. Also the way you get more healing out of the 1st point you put in than the two subsequent points put together seems... odd to me. Anyways I'll be putting 1 point into it.

</furious theorycrafting>

Thread in question: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...99106097&sid=1

I've taken the liberty of quoting Tangedyn's maths here, hoping he won't mind too much:

Everyone is saying that Improved Leader of the Pack will be providing the druid's group with 2% hp heal every 6 seconds. In truth, the number is far from that. You get the 2% hp heal every 6 seconds only if you ALWAYS crit immediately after the 6 seconds is over from the previous effect, and this cannot be guaranteed unless you have 100% crits. So with less than 100% crits, what is the average time you will have to wait between ILOTP procs? Fortunately the math is pretty simple.

Ave Time Between Procs = Attack_Speed * Ave_Attacks_To_Crit + 6

Ave_Attacks_To_Crit is basically 1/Crit_Chance, using the mean of an exponential distribution with Lambda = Crit_Chance, where Crit_Chance = Crit_Percent/100%

** Ave Time Between Procs = Attack_Speed / Crit_Chance + 6

Therefore, a cat with 25% crit rate and attack speed of 1.0 will proc ILOTP once every 10 seconds.

Attack Speed can also be calculated for Dual Wielding and energy based special attacks. For multiple attack sources:

Attack_Speed = 1 / (1/Attack_Speed_1 + 1/Attack_Speed_2 + 1/...)

A feral druid (1.0) using shred (4.8) will have an attack speed of 1 / (1/1.0 + 1/4.8) = .8276
With a 25% crit rate, this druid will be procing ILOTP once every 9.3 seconds.

A rogue DWing AQR (2.8) and Iblis (1.6) with sinister strikes (4.0) will have an attack speed of 1 / (1/1.6 + 1/2.8 + 1/4) = 0.8116
With a 30% crit rate, this rogue will be procing ILOTP once every 8.7 seconds.

An arms warrior swinging Ashkandi (3.5) and mortal striking every 6 seconds (6.0), with a crit% of 25% will be procing ILOTP once every 14.8 seconds.

A hunter with Ashje'thul using the 10 second cycle (3 auto-shots, 1 multishot, 1 aimed shot in 10 seconds, average attack speed 2.0) with a crit% of 30% will be procing ILOTP once every 12.7 seconds.

It's rather more complex for a dagger rogue because the chances for crits increases when backstab is used, but we can estimate by doubling the attack speed of the backstabs. A rogue with Perdition Dagger (1.8) and Core Hound Tooth (1,6) Backstabbing (3.0) with a crit% of 30% will be procing ILOTP once every 8.2 seconds.

Let's assume the best case scenario, someone with 100% crit chance and 10k hp. We can expect him to be healed for 0.02 * 10000 / 6 = 33.3 hp per second

Now let's compare against Shadow Priests providing Improved Vampiric Embrace, which is heals for 30% of shadow damage dealt to each party member. In order to beat a Feral Druid providing 33.3hp of healing per second, the Shadow Priest needs to do 111.1 Shadow DPS. Mind Flay (Rank 5) available at level 52 is able to provide 110 Shadow DPS. A level 44 priest combining Mind Flay (Rank 4) Shadow Word: Pain (Rank 6) can provide 115 Shadow DPS.

At the same time, with Improved Shadow Weaving, Shadow Priests will also be providing 5% magic damage increase to the raid (much better than 3% crit to one party), and 20% shadow damage increase to the raid (better than 25% bleed damage increase).

It should be obvious that Improved Leader of the Pack and Mangle's debuff are seriously underpowered in providing Feral Raid viability, compared to what a Shadow Priest can give.

The shadow priest comparison is perhaps a bit over the top, but at least it puts the healing part into perspective, all other issues aside. It's of course still just theorycrafting about untested content, but still, the numbers are interesting IMO (druid alt =P).

Kaubel · 10/02/06, 7:03 PM

That's my point really. There's a difference between:

"Just looking at it hypothetically and how it's worded, it's hard for me to see how effective LotP will turn out, or if it'll ultimately be worth the cost. I guess we'll have to wait and see."

and...

"BLU PLZ! I want answers! Because according to these mathematical formulas I've pulled out of my ass, LotP is completely worthless and I won't be getting it EVER! <RAGE>"

Boevis · 10/02/06, 8:43 PM

Originally Posted by Vascariz

Plus your maths or adding 90% + 35% is flawed. You are NOT doing BOTH at the same time...
If you are 50% tanking and 50% healing you are functioning only at 62.5% (doing maths on the fly) compared to another member in your raid who is functioning at 100% all the time.

Depending on how you define "100%" Damage Meters across the world disagree with you, the only classes that can claim to function at 100% all the time are the Main Tank, Rogues, Priests, and .. Resto Druids. An Off Tank may be at 100% while handling an add, but when it dies, even with a good weaponswap, he becomes a ~25% DPS, we may not be able to reach 100% as a druid, but in tanking gear we can do better than a prot warrior at DPS (This is assuming AQ level gear, where we actually get a half dozen feral upgrades) Warlocks have to life-tap, bandage, and sometimes stop DPS alltogether due to threat, hardly 100%. Hunters feign/drink, and are currently (it seems anyway) only capable of just breaking 600 DPS, mages must Evocate and hold back on their DPS (gg ignite), same with fury warriors. Very few classes are capable of functioning at 100%.

As for doing "Both at the same time" No one is capable of tanking and healing at the same time, not in endgame at least, Tanking and DPSing at the same time is extremely risky (though technically, bearform Does DPS and Tank at the same time, I'm doing about 250-300 DPS while tanking) Conquerors would allow a warrior to do both I suppose, but only to the same degree that we'd be doing, You don't tank with a 2-hander. Classes that can do DPS and healing? Paladins can melee to keep up JoL, Priests VE, Shamans drop Healing Stream Totem, and ... We'll get ILotP.

The "Both at the same time" concept is fools talk when including healing, except for those 4 cases, it cannot be done. Yes, Shamans, Paladins, and Priests can all cast heals - but doing so stops their DPS briefly. To quote you "However, one must realise there are TWO mechanisms already in place to prevent abuse. One, is the mana cost ... Two, is the restriction of talent points." There is a Third .. Time. Any healer that has been to Patchwerk will tell you how deadly the Global Cooldown is, any time you spend not doing one thing, you aren't doing it ... it's no different from off-tanking and then healing when your mob dies, it's just spreading it out (which is less efficient btw)