Several ideas have been bothering me for a little while until a fellow guildie proposed what might be the correct answer that ties them all together. I'd like to see what the rest of you think.
1. What will happen to the "pre-TBC" raiding timeline? Will MC/BWL/AQ40/Naxx automatically become "extinct"? Will new guilds that level up together simply get to 60 and then directly begin the grind to 70 and TBC content?
I have to believe the answer is "no". Why would Blizzard simply destroy the viability of grinding pre-TBC content, and do so as of "day 1" of TBC? I could see them initiating some sort of longer-term "decay" but to simply throw it all out...??
2. For guilds currently progressing through AQ40/Naxx, will the best strategy be to dump their current progress the second TBC comes out? Again, I think not.
So far the conversation on this has focused on whether the gear will be useful for leveling up. I think this is missing one major point.
Reputation.
Wouldn't it be exactly like Blizzard to require Honored, Revered or Exalted reputation with a faction linked to a an old raid instance for some reward (like opening the doors to a new instance, perhaps??)?
I could completely see this happening. Thus Brood or Hydraxian (to name two) rep might be required for a future instance, quest chain or gear rewards.
On a related topic, I've been wondering what they are going to do about the recipe drops in MC and AQ. While some of them appear to have upgrades in TBC it would be nice if they moved them to vendors like the Thorium Brotherhood and Cenarion Circle enchants.
We're looking to improve how faction works in The Burning Crusade, both in how it's earned and how much it figures into the gameplay. In general, reputation will be earned more quickly in the Burning Crusade, so it feels like less of a grind. You may find for example, that faction earned from killing trash mobs in an instance doesn't get capped off as quickly, or you'll get better faction jumps out of completing quests.
So I doubt it would be rep-based. OTOH, I could foresee either quests started from current raid end bosses, or tradeskill materials dropped/gathered in the raid zones (a la Bloodvine and the MC stuff).
But overall, I can't really think of any reason why any new players would want to 'stand still' at level 60 to gather up 40 people for raids. The majority of players would either a) not be doing them at all or b) do them at higher levels with fewer people, if there is any good reason to do them.
Honestly with the items coming out now, I'm getting convinced that everything is gonna be worthless pre xp. There is a slight hope that Naxx items may still partly be good for a while. I mean, there is a questable "blue" axe that is better then sulfuras/severance, etc.
Kinda like you don't farm maraudon gear today, you get to 60 by grinding or doing whatever and then you do dire maul/strat/etc runs to get a full set of gear it look certain now that the best course will be to get to 70 asap and start doing dungeons, totally overlooking everything else or so.
But overall, I can't really think of any reason why any new players would want to 'stand still' at level 60 to gather up 40 people for raids. The majority of players would either a) not be doing them at all or b) do them at higher levels with fewer people, if there is any good reason to do them.
6 months after TBC release, this might be completely accurate. However...for the first couple months (or even first 6 weeks) I could see some direct need to continue running AQ40, for example.
I do like your point about involving bosses from MC/BWL/AQ40/Naxx in quest chains. I could definitely see that happening.
I think Blizzard has compared the current top-end instances to previous ones that used to be on top, but were replaced. Scarlet Monastery, Maraudon, BRD, and other instances used to be "cutting edge" back in the day, but now are replaced by the current endgame content.
Yes, these instances are not run by people as much, but people still play through them, enjoy them, and get good gear and experience from them.
So when TBC comes out, maybe fewer people will run MC/BWL/AQ/Naxx, but it's not like they will become ghost towns. Heck, since people can get to level 70 and come back, maybe MORE net people will see Naxx this way, since it will be easier to make progress in there and see those encounters. And even if people leave these instances and never come back, Blizzard has surely gotten good mileage out of them.
Honestly with the items coming out now, I'm getting convinced that everything is gonna be worthless pre xp. There is a slight hope that Naxx items may still partly be good for a while. I mean, there is a questable "blue" axe that is better then sulfuras/severance, etc.
Kinda like you don't farm maraudon gear today, you get to 60 by grinding or doing whatever and then you do dire maul/strat/etc runs to get a full set of gear it look certain now that the best course will be to get to 70 asap and start doing dungeons, totally overlooking everything else or so.
My OP wasn't about gear though. It was about reputation (rep rewards or requirements to achieve specific things). The gear discussion has already been pounded to death.
I haven't been keeping up on TBC enchants and such, but if shoulder enchants remain a controlled substance that alone might be worth "grinding" Naxx and ZG.
I think Blizzard has compared the current top-end instances to previous ones that used to be on top, but were replaced. Scarlet Monastery, Maraudon, BRD, and other instances used to be "cutting edge" back in the day, but now are replaced by the current endgame content.
Completely different story on those instances though. Any 5 man sub-60 instance had a shelf life of a few weeks as players out leveled them. BRD kept its legs as it was integral to a lot of the post 60 content. There was no rep component to any of them that I can recall, so its not a fair comparison.
Rep gain comes into play at 60 when you are 'plateau'd' for a year+ and you only means of advancement is gear/rep. Unless they heavily tied new content to the old instances, people will just end up bypassing them on their way from 1-70. I can't see them making people 'stop' at 60 to do the same raiding instance in a few months.
1. Will MC/BWL/AQ40/Naxx automatically become "extinct"?
2. For guilds currently progressing through AQ40/Naxx, will the best strategy be to dump their current progress the second TBC comes out? Again, I think not.
1. Yes, except for Naxx/AQ40. The other two's rewards are matched or beat by level 62 blues.
2. It matters on what your guild as a whole wants to do. If everyone rather farm AQ40/Naxx instead of TBC content, keep going at it. However, I believe that people rather progress in level, so I think for most guilds best strat is abandoning the old stuff and go after the new stuff.
While Naxx hasn't been enjoyed by most of the player base, it doesn't seem worth a guild's time if you haven't made some progress by now.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
think in terms of Blizzard's marketing arm. They have a fixed number of current customers, and many of them will roll onto the expansion no matter what. The goal is to attract new customers. Forcing people who just buy WoW this christmas to run MC, BWL, AQ40, and Naxx before stepping foot into any of the 70 instances is just plain foolish and silly. So the obvious choice is to equalize all players in the mid 60s, so that whether you are an old player or a new player the game is "the same" by the time you start hitting 70.
Originally Posted by Ashuko
1. What will happen to the "pre-TBC" raiding timeline? Will MC/BWL/AQ40/Naxx automatically become "extinct"? Will new guilds that level up together simply get to 60 and then directly begin the grind to 70 and TBC content?
They are the equivalent of MC for guilds that are currently in Naxx. Maybe you'll run it once in a while for fun but thats about it. Many new guilds will run Naxx at 70 in superior gear just to have the pleasure of seeing many of the fun encounters, but it will only be done a few times - not a regularly scheduled event.
Originally Posted by Ashuko
2. For guilds currently progressing through AQ40/Naxx, will the best strategy be to dump their current progress the second TBC comes out? Again, I think not.
Yes, current and new guilds will level up to 70 hitting the 60-69 instances along the way. There are a few level 70 5 man instances, plus the lower ones can be set to "hard mode" for better loot. Once everyone is kitted out equally from the 65+ instances, they will hit Karazhan, the 10 man instance to get the next level of gear. Once they get Karazhan gear, they will hit Black Temple, the 25 man raid instance. There are a few smaller (Onyxia style) 25 man instances for quick epic loot runs on off days. Plus arena PVP.
For most of us its been pretty obvious that naxx loot will deprecate very quickly, we're seeing some of it leak out from the alpha but the cap is still level 67 so haven't seen it all yet (especially not the end game instances). But again, keep in mind the need to constantly attract new players or players who previously quit, forcing any of them to rep grind before enjoing new stuff is a great way to drive tons of people away.
All the guilds who are in tier3 and such will be a little angry and miffed, but honestly, how many of those people will suddenly quit the game because loot you get at level 68 is better than naxx gear? Hardly any.
Blizzard's greatest worry right now is too many people deciding to suspend their account until the expansion, and the expansion being delayed for some reason. So they mantain vagueness about upgrades and release dates, so people still play.
Enjoy naxx/AQ40 now for the challenges and fun of the instances, not the gear...
This is sort of how MMOG expansions work: mudflation creeps in, new levels so people go forward instead of working on old stuff... all those ol dungeons are fun but they're realistically a time sink to keep people subbed. You eat content, they make new content, old content becomes useless. Do you use Hydraxian rep in Naxx?
None of this is new at all. You'd think WoW brought a bunch of people who've never played an MMOG before to it... oh, wait.
Mages have a set time that they want you to ask for food, and that time is pull #4 of the night. You may notice them putting a little snack table down before the raid, that's them cooking the food for you to demand on pull 4. --Nork
Why would you spend time in the cespool known as MC when you can spend the same amount of time grinding outside or in a new 5-man for better gear AND more fun? You don't.
Just like in any other game's first xpack, old material is just that -- old. Don't expect to see me or anyone else back in any of the old zones.
Not only did the new item formula for stamina force a complete out-classing of old gear, the old encounters sinply aren't set-up for lvl 70 toons. With all the posts about how awesome human/orcs are with their +5 wep skill bonus, can you imagine what FIFTY points in Weapon and defense skills will do for you?
The 4 raid zones we currently have lasted us for over 2 years (although grimacingly), I can see the 5-6 in TBC to last us a year without a problem, especially considering we might even have a PVP system worth devoting time to.
If fire, nature, or ice resist gear is ever needed for higher end content, I could see a guild revisiting level 60 content.
Having just rolled on The Forgotten Coast (a new server), guilds are just finishing Domo/Rag. It's a little depressing to think of all the content I'm probably never going to see (ZG/Naxx).
I'm not going to complain too much though. Blizzard expansions have always surpassed my expectations.
My guess is the Prophet will have a rough day on the first day of TBC. I think I am in the lead for my raid group with almost 30 insignias. Some of you that have been farming aq40 for a while probably have the 80 or so insignias that are required to jump straight to 61. If your still farming the bug family and vicidious that is 10 a week. We probably will never attempt vicidious since most of the loot he drops has better equivalents easy acesible in Naxx, we are currently working on c'thun and killed ouro for the first time this week. By my estimates I will have 100 insignias (@ 3000 xp each) when the TBC is released.
Beyond that Naxx will definately be raided 6 months into the release, perhaps not with 40 people but definately on a regular basis. If blizzard introduces the difficulty levels on the current 40 man raids and the loot is worth it they will defiantely continue to see weekly groups. A level 70 Version of MC could be fun.. then again maybe not wit h a ton of level 73 trash :P
All the guilds who are in tier3 and such will be a little angry and miffed, but honestly, how many of those people will suddenly quit the game because loot you get at level 68 is better than naxx gear? Hardly any.
Not the only people that will be upset. Add to that group "Raiders who are barely starting Naxx, won't finish before xpac only to find out its not worth finishing later".
Blizzard's greatest worry right now is too many people deciding to suspend their account until the expansion.
Let's not pretend everybody is motivated by the 'challenge of raiding'. It sounds high minded, but plenty of people raid for the rewards too. And when they see they can just take three months off, and be no worse off for it, how many of them will decide to take the fall off?
Some of you that have been farming aq40 for a while probably have the 80 or so insignias that are required to jump straight to 61.
Honestly, do people really think that Blizzard is going to allow these to give xp anymore? Naxx raiders get to start at the xpac at level 61? Seems very likely they will be changing this.
I'd bet money that we'll have reasons to revist the old instances. For instance(hur), there is that newfangled Naga instance in TBC, I assume the Hydraxian Waterlords are involved somehow. I would also expect that there will be some reason for players at mid 60s - 70s to keep running Naxx.
My guess is that tier 3 and tier 4 armor would have a relationship similar to tier 0 and .5. (Not in quality, but in ability to be 'upgraded.') This would serve the purpose of keeping people running Naxx and having new people run Naxx once it's "easy mode" and thus exposing them to the content they could only dream of running pre-expansion. To me that type of thing seems too fit too perfectly into the Blizzard style for them not to do it.
Now what would really be cool is if you could run Naxx, get tier 3, and upgrade it along different paths into either resistance sets, mana regen sets, defense (I mean, resilence) sets, etc. This would give people a reason to maintain thier current guild sizes and quiet a lot of the complaints about guild downsizing.
You guys hoping the 40s don't become obsolete are really, really hitting pipe dream status. It's simply not going to happen. The stuff was there, it was a challenge, move on. It's like every single other thing in the game: it was good because it was fun at the time and then you outgrow it in the virtual sense. I can promise you that from a strictly progression/levelling/gearing standpoint you will NEVER touch Naxx or Hydraxian rep again.
Mages have a set time that they want you to ask for food, and that time is pull #4 of the night. You may notice them putting a little snack table down before the raid, that's them cooking the food for you to demand on pull 4. --Nork
It's a little depressing to think of all the content I'm probably never going to see (ZG/Naxx).
Actually.. now that I think of it. I can imagine a significant number of players have, in fact, never seen Ragnaros and all that comes after. Just doing those bosses at level 70 may be some goal in itself for some people.
And about Naxx.. we already know of one goal Naxx fulfills in TBC: Atiesh and it's Karazhan portal. And I don't know how far the whole world event plans were evolved before it was scrapped in favor of Kazzak, but wasn't Kel'Thuzad supposed to have a role in that? These might be clues that at least Naxx will remain relevant during TBC.
I'd bet money that we'll have reasons to revist the old instances. For instance(hur), there is that newfangled Naga instance in TBC, I assume the Hydraxian Waterlords are involved somehow. I would also expect that there will be some reason for players at mid 60s - 70s to keep running Naxx.
My guess is that tier 3 and tier 4 armor would have a relationship similar to tier 0 and .5. (Not in quality, but in ability to be 'upgraded.') This would serve the purpose of keeping people running Naxx and having new people run Naxx once it's "easy mode" and thus exposing them to the content they could only dream of running pre-expansion. To me that type of thing seems too fit too perfectly into the Blizzard style for them not to do it.
Now what would really be cool is if you could run Naxx, get tier 3, and upgrade it along different paths into either resistance sets, mana regen sets, defense (I mean, resilence) sets, etc. This would give people a reason to maintain thier current guild sizes and quiet a lot of the complaints about guild downsizing.
I honestly can't see any of that. Say someone started playing the day the expansion comes out. Forcing them to run a 40 man instance after they've made all the new instances 25 man would be silly. Forcing them to run MC for Waterlord Rep just to make them do it would also be silly.
Naxx gives Atiesh and Ashbringer, two entirely opinional items, but forcing people to go back and farm Naxx once they hit lvl 70 because some Quest giver in the Black Temple wants a Tier 3 Helm to upgade to a Tier 4 would be a massive game design Blunder.
You guys hoping the 40s don't become obsolete are really, really hitting pipe dream status. It's simply not going to happen. The stuff was there, it was a challenge, move on. It's like every single other thing in the game: it was good because it was fun at the time and then you outgrow it in the virtual sense. I can promise you that from a strictly progression/levelling/gearing standpoint you will NEVER touch Naxx or Hydraxian rep again.
Unless the rumor that you can cleanse the Ashbringer into a nice lvl 70 weapon is true. This might entice some lvl 70's to hit up Naxx for a chance at weilding a cleansed Ashbringer. Somewhat like thunderfury keeps some people going into MC.
Thinks like that could be small things to keep people running Naxx. I'm also amused that you can make promises about unreleased content....
10/02/06, 3:56 PM
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