That's how I saw it, LadyVex. I loved RP raiding and loved the rush of RP-turning in Ony's head for the first time, for example. I think a lot of it is sour grapes and an unwillingness to master the skillsets necessary to succeed in raiding.
Then, too, there's the reset problem. "Rejoice, my brethren, for we have slain the Elemental Lord Ragnaros in his very lair! We have ridden Azeroth of a threat beyond all telling. Meet back here next week, same time, for the second kill. Hope he doesn't drop more Stormrage and Nemesis." In a world where players can respawn within minutes, I had no particular problem with minor gods and powerful dragons doing similar, but YMMV.
That's an obvious bane of RP; most RPing sessions allow for the rebirth of PCs, but not NPCs, especially major gods, deities and powers. Once they are dead, they stay dead, primarily I assume because if they did not then killing them would be worthless. Kinda the same feeling I got upon killing Quarm; Druzzil resets everything and the gods are alive again, woot! Wait wtf did I just spend my time killing this crap for?!? And more importantly, if she had that kind of power why didn't she intervene before? /shakes head
I don't RP but maybe those types of things would matter. /shrug
As far as skill sets, I can equate that to doing DnD. We had people who weren't power players at all, in fact they rejoice at lower stat scores or badly equipped characters as it gave them a chance to roleplay a unique character, so I would assume it might apply similarly? Just out for having fun instead of the ultimate gain of power and prestige.
But I still think Onyxia is probably more rewarding if you do get into in an RP sense.
I loved my warrior with a wisdom score of 8 in DnD. But WoW is different and doing dumb stuff intentionally doesn't contribute to group fun in the same way it does in a PnP game. Most of the time.
Our raid group on CC did a major event with our first Ony kill, returning to the Crossroads for an impromptu "Horde rally" kinda thing (complete with level 12 noobs who were like "wut is ur gear" while we were declaiming loudly about the power of the Horde) before riding to Razor Hill and into Orgrimmar for the turnin. I like the efficiency with which we work on Lethon, and the fact that we don't have leeches and naysayers at every turn, but I do miss stuff like that.
I loved my warrior with a wisdom score of 8 in DnD. But WoW is different and doing dumb stuff intentionally doesn't contribute to group fun in the same way it does in a PnP game. Most of the time.
Our raid group on CC did a major event with our first Ony kill, returning to the Crossroads for an impromptu "Horde rally" kinda thing (complete with level 12 noobs who were like "wut is ur gear" while we were declaiming loudly about the power of the Horde) before riding to Razor Hill and into Orgrimmar for the turnin. I like the efficiency with which we work on Lethon, and the fact that we don't have leeches and naysayers at every turn, but I do miss stuff like that.
Well I don't mean that you would do dumb stuff intentionally, just that those type of people not interested in power play would also be the ones to care less about specific strats and the "right" and "wrong" ways to do things, IE they wouldn't min/max, or work the the utmost like most other progression oriented guilds are.
And don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to generalize or insinuate that everyone on RP servers are a bunch of slackers with no skills, I just know I can pinpoint friends of mine who are this way, and never really cared one way or the other for the actual clarification on things or the explanation of how things worked, and I could see there being people like this on an RP server. (Holy hell, was that one long run on sentence?)
As for myself, I do concern myself with things like damage equations and min/maxing, and the right and wrong ways to do things, and I was that way in DnD too, the more "technical" type than the RP type. I could definitely believe there would be a linear correlation between the two.
As far as skill sets, I can equate that to doing DnD. We had people who weren't power players at all, in fact they rejoice at lower stat scores or badly equipped characters as it gave them a chance to roleplay a unique character, so I would assume it might apply similarly? Just out for having fun instead of the ultimate gain of power and prestige.
You actually run into the same problem in PnP games- well-constructed characters will carry the party through fights while poorly-constructed characters sit around in the back being useless and ARPEE LOL. If you DM things so that the poorly-constructed characters can succeed, then the well-constructed characters will not be challenged. If you DM things so that the well-constructed characters will be challenged, the poorly-constructed characters will die a screaming, fiery death.
Now in PnP D&D, this isn't a big deal. Poorly constructed characters can be fixed between game sessions with some friendly advice and a #2 pencil. Only five or six people are involved in the game. If there are large structural problems or an unwinnable fight the DM can fiat plot changes and combat results to get the story and the fun back on track. If someone can't get their shit together, they can be dropped from the game and the DM can scale the challenges down to meet the reduced number of people.
But in Warcraft raiding, it's a huge fucking deal. Poorly built characters take weeks to regear. Forty people are involved in the raid instance and raid bosses can't be toned down by DM fiat so that they can be killed by the competent people who get along with each other. If the current group can't kill the boss then the current group can't kill the boss, there's no moving the plot along.
So mediocre players have no place in WoW raiding, because fixes cannot be made for them and encounters are not designed for them. They will hold the group up and ruin everyone's night. There is no way to deal with them besides kicking them out of the raid and finding a replacement who can hack the very concrete mechanical problems of raiding.
On RP servers, my theory is that this pool of competent replacements is slim (for reasons described elsewhere) and mediocre players creep into otherwise competent guilds' regular raid teams, ruining their progress.
Someone else mentioned that RP servers were a small percentage of the total number of WoW servers, and that this affected the rate of RP server success. I hashed this out with Elil from The Eleventh Hour on ER yesterday, and the problem is that RP and RP-PVP servers do make up only about 1/16th of WoW's servers. So if all servers are created equal, you'd expect to find an RP server of some kind somewhere in the top 50, at least. But you don't. The three best Alliance RP guilds are around 10-11 Naxx bosses, which is in the 100-200 range in terms of progress. The best Horde guilds have only recently started killing C'Thun and are at best at a Spider Wing/Noth/Raz level of Naxx progress. Unless I'm mistaken I don't think that RP servers have seen a Loatheb or 4H kill yet.
Well I don't mean that you would do dumb stuff intentionally
Oh, that was poorly phrased on my part. I don't mean "RP" ruining a raid by pulling early because you're secretly a servant of Nefarian or something like that--I mean, say, wearing Magister's/Arcanist as raid gear because it looks better without giving a thought as to why it's a bad idea (although stuff like that happens on normal servers too--people are overdrawn to sets for graphic unity; there's an excellent if mildly outdated guide to blue healing gear on the druid forums and some guy's all "I PREFER WILDHEART FOR HEALING IN RAIDS BECAUSE I LOOK BETTER", etc.). More "doing stuff that happens to be dumb intentionally without thought as to why it's dumb" as opposed to "intentionally being dumb."
I will admit that it took time to convert me to a mindset more conducive to raiding. But it comes down to the point that if it's worth doing, it's worth doing well.
Oh I completely agree with you, the only problem is either lack of good guilds, or lack of good players because of this. So even if you RP you might be an excellent player and one up to the challenge of being on the cutting edge, yet lack the ability to find/join another guild better suited to your needs.
I guess I am just amazed that RP seems to be so different in terms of progression, heh.
Originally Posted by Pono
Oh, that was poorly phrased on my part. I don't mean "RP" ruining a raid by pulling early because you're secretly a servant of Nefarian or something like that--I mean, say, wearing Magister's/Arcanist as raid gear because it looks better without giving a thought as to why it's a bad idea (although stuff like that happens on normal servers too--people are overdrawn to sets for graphic unity; there's an excellent if mildly outdated guide to blue healing gear on the druid forums and some guy's all "I PREFER WILDHEART FOR HEALING IN RAIDS BECAUSE I LOOK BETTER", etc.). More "doing stuff that happens to be dumb intentionally without thought as to why it's dumb" as opposed to "intentionally being dumb."
I will admit that it took time to convert me to a mindset more conducive to raiding. But it comes down to the point that if it's worth doing, it's worth doing well.
That's it in a nutshell. Like I said, alot of people I gamed with didn't care for the whys and hows; as both a priest and hunter it would amaze me when i would encounter other hunters/priests who had NFI even of the basics of their class. I used to get told regularly that dragonbreath hand cannon was better than Ashjre'thul, and that there was no reason to use heal rank 2 in a raid setting. /bonk Things like that. Most people generally very focused on progression can tell you how to maximize dps, which weapons/gear is best, how to augment it with consumables and which things are best to farm. From the sound of this thread it would seem those on RP are all about PEW PEW die dragon, etc.
I would like to point out there is a definite line between someone who just wants to have fun and doesn't get to the nitty gritty of classes, and someone who just doesn't give a damn and doesn't know a thing. The former can generally be coaxed and prodded to become more aware of their class and their raid group; the latter has no idea nor care about how and if he should perhaps step up to the plate a bit more. Like the above poster said, you can't fix those things with just a #2 pencil.
I wonder how RPers justify reseting Scarlet Monestary 5 times an hour so they can kill Loatheb.
It's like Kel'Thuzad's phylactery, man. We could kill Scarlet Commander Mograine and end his reign of terror, but we rarely listen to that inner voice of reason. Better to just rough him up a bit and come back tomorrow.
In all seriousness, instances can make good settings for a fan fiction story, but it's a really really bad idea to use Blizz NPCs in RP because of respawn. So when we were doing well in AQ and I felt inspired to RP about it, I would try to talk about gaining ground for the allied armies, or driving back huge insect beasts in some lost quarter of the subterranean city, or routing the Twin Emperors as opposed to killing them. I wanted my stories to fit seamlessly into other people's experiences of WoW, so that they could make up their own heroic deeds without contradictions.
But this thread is about why RP sux lol, not how to RP raiding without sounding stupid.
I would like to point out there is a definite line between someone who just wants to have fun and doesn't get to the nitty gritty of classes, and someone who just doesn't give a damn and doesn't know a thing. The former can generally be coaxed and prodded to become more aware of their class and their raid group; the latter has no idea nor care about how and if he should perhaps step up to the plate a bit more. Like the above poster said, you can't fix those things with just a #2 pencil.
This is something I've encounted a lot. Hunters who want to spec out of 41 yard range then complain they don't get healed when they're feared into conflag, rogues who want to use daggers with hemo, memorably a hunter who didn't have distracting shot, of any rank. And coupled with the "lower drive to compete" that a lot of people referred to already, they don't -want- to be told. You say "you're placing low on damage meters" and the reply is that they're broken or that they're "for kids who wanna grow their e-peens", not "how can I do better?"
To give a little background, my current character is my second ever and the first one I played to 60. I came in knowing exactly nothing about the class I was playing or the game mechanics generally - I memorably argued that a +spelldmg item should go to a priest 'cos it "had healing on it". When I realised that I was good-geared but not performing as well as I could I took it upon myself to really concentrate on mechanics, energy efficiency, all of that - and since I'd become pretty much de facto raid leader by virtue of guild rank, Solmina's lack of ability to attend at the time, and the fact no-one else would take the job (nor was suited, as it turned out) I also set about learning the mechanics of a lot of other classes. I'm nowhere near perfect - to this day I can't remember, ever, which classes decurse/abolish what - but I picked up as much as I could as quickly as I could and pride myself on having at least a basic understanding of most classes.
It boggles the mind how people can get to 60, start raiding, get decent gear, and still place low on meters without thinking "how do I improve?" and especially when these same people try and run the raid themselves - I shut up with WHY ARENT YOU SHEEPING when I had a chat with my mages and found out a little more on the impracticalities of sheeping in a raid setting - particularly those same people who scream OMG SHEEP FFS whilst happily DoTing and DPSing every sheep in sight.
Sadly, these people seem to be prevalent on RP servers, or at least on Ravenholdt.
I can\'t find any excitement killing the virtual equivalent of a quadriplegic in his own bedroom. It\'s not sporting. - Bekah
Blackpatch's raid RP posts were one of the shining lights of the increasingly dim CC forums. I'm just sad I killed his sexy WoW fanfic thread.
I think we've pretty much nailed the reason why RP sux lol, though. In general, RP servers do not attract the kind of people who are successful in a raid environment. We can subjectivize it a bit more either way, but that's what it comes down to. Floundering around CC as the third-most progressed Horde group at the time of our departure (keep in mind that this is a raid that took eight months to kill Vael), we could not scrape together the competent players who weren't already in Revelation or Eternal Sorrow, so we took what we got--which was terrible. We briefly had a mage who had almost as much agi on his gear as spell damage (although this was before rewrites on a lot of stupidly statted cloth items), among other folks that would have been comic if we hadn't been raiding with them. (Actually, they were comic, but we were kicking ourselves too.)
Blackpatch's raid RP posts were one of the shining lights of the increasingly dim CC forums. I'm just sad I killed his sexy WoW fanfic thread.
I think we've pretty much nailed the reason why RP sux lol, though. In general, RP servers do not attract the kind of people who are successful in a raid environment. We can subjectivize it a bit more either way, but that's what it comes down to. Floundering around CC as the third-most progressed Horde group at the time of our departure (keep in mind that this is a raid that took eight months to kill Vael), we could not scrape together the competent players who weren't already in Revelation or Eternal Sorrow, so we took what we got--which was terrible. We briefly had a mage who had almost as much agi on his gear as spell damage (although this was before rewrites on a lot of stupidly statted cloth items), among other folks that would have been comic if we hadn't been raiding with them. (Actually, they were comic, but we were kicking ourselves too.)
Thanks! I'm even sadder that I didn't save the Sexy Fanfic thread.
Yeah, I think this thread's mission has been accomplished, so I might as well exacerbate the drift off-topic with shameless ex-CC gossip. After all, we know slow RP server raid progression. Who were you on CC? And who was the AGI mage? And finally, how did you keep at Vael for eight months? I was absolutely amazed when you guys killed him. I thought you'd given up!
In all seriousness, instances can make good settings for a fan fiction story, but it's a really really bad idea to use Blizz NPCs in RP because of respawn. So when we were doing well in AQ and I felt inspired to RP about it, I would try to talk about gaining ground for the allied armies, or driving back huge insect beasts in some lost quarter of the subterranean city, or routing the Twin Emperors as opposed to killing them. I wanted my stories to fit seamlessly into other people's experiences of WoW, so that they could make up their own heroic deeds without contradictions.
I actually write stories for my guilds raid accomplishments myself. Though in my case they don't even try to avoid things which could contradict other people's experience, and have a more satirical tendency if everything. Nothing beats being able to describe your own guild as scheming, thieving filth and getting praised for it by your members. Of course Azjol-Nerub isn't an RP server, so I don't really have to worry about people thinking I'm going too far in actually 'modifying' the world, which allows me a lot of writing freedom.
When I post them on the realm forums they tend to become breeding grounds of random level 1 alts complaining about bragging, whom nevertheless mysteriously avoid any other threads in a more traditional "we killed it!" style.
buff /bÊŒf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of
I think perhaps you missed a few key points that make a lot of what you are trying to say not shine as well as you would like.
A) How many people in Ergo are RPers? Seriously, how many?
B) The fact that while you try and make it look like we are stumbling our way through content we are one of the fastest progressing raid groups on the server. We took down A’Nub on our 2nd day of attempts, we got C’Thun down to phase 2 on our second day of attempts, and many more that followed the same trend. All you have to do is look at the Raid Progression Thread to see how well we are doing, and considering that we only raid 3 nights a week and are making progress through AQ and now NAX is not something to simple brush off.
Now while you seem to have some pretty strong views about the types of people that play on RP servers they do not properly reflect the reality of it. A lot of people will role on a RP server to avoid “Jerks†. RP servers have strict rules about how you can interact with other players, this helps immensely in keeping things civil whether it be in General Chat, or in PuGs that you run with. Others joined the server because they already had friends there and wanted to play with them.
But regardless of all that, if you have a point to make, make it, but do not drag our guild into it and try painting it in a light that is not accurate to try and make your point sound valid.
Blackpatch's raid RP posts were one of the shining lights of the increasingly dim CC forums. I'm just sad I killed his sexy WoW fanfic thread.
I think we've pretty much nailed the reason why RP sux lol, though. In general, RP servers do not attract the kind of people who are successful in a raid environment. We can subjectivize it a bit more either way, but that's what it comes down to. Floundering around CC as the third-most progressed Horde group at the time of our departure (keep in mind that this is a raid that took eight months to kill Vael), we could not scrape together the competent players who weren't already in Revelation or Eternal Sorrow, so we took what we got--which was terrible. We briefly had a mage who had almost as much agi on his gear as spell damage (although this was before rewrites on a lot of stupidly statted cloth items), among other folks that would have been comic if we hadn't been raiding with them. (Actually, they were comic, but we were kicking ourselves too.)
Thanks! I'm even sadder that I didn't save the Sexy Fanfic thread.
Yeah, I think this thread's mission has been accomplished, so I might as well exacerbate the drift off-topic with shameless ex-CC gossip. After all, we know slow RP server raid progression. Who were you on CC? And who was the AGI mage? And finally, how did you keep at Vael for eight months? I was absolutely amazed when you guys killed him. I thought you'd given up!
Pono is Neris. No idea on the AGI mage. I think they were masochists to keep at Vael for 8 months without making major changes.
Now while you seem to have some pretty strong views about the types of people that play on RP servers they do not properly reflect the reality of it. A lot of people will role on a RP server to avoid “Jerks� . RP servers have strict rules about how you can interact with other players, this helps immensely in keeping things civil whether it be in General Chat, or in PuGs that you run with.
They're strict now? That's a revelation. Last I checked stupid names, spamming of /trade and /general and OOC bullshit in /say and /yell were prevalent on RP servers. SSL EU being the worst example, godforsaken hellhole that it is, but RH has its fair share too.
I can\'t find any excitement killing the virtual equivalent of a quadriplegic in his own bedroom. It\'s not sporting. - Bekah
I think we've pretty much nailed the reason why RP sux lol, though. In general, RP servers do not attract the kind of people who are successful in a raid environment. We can subjectivize it a bit more either way, but that's what it comes down to.
Not entirely true. I've raided with the top guild on an RP server and a relatively advanced guild on a PvP server.
RP server players tend to be more loyal. I was shocked at the amount of player turnover that guilds on PvP servers experience.
RP server players, in my experience, also tend to be mature and pleasant to be around.
If you assembled a group of players on an RP server that were dedicated, competitive, and Good at Video Games, I think you could really have the best of two worlds.
Note to reader: This is a fully tangential post to the initial question of the thread (why RP servers progress slower than both PVE and PVP servers). If looking for the answer to that question, feel free to skip over. The closest I come to answering it lumps RP together with PVE as the "progression-impoverished" servers, which I feel is an insufficient answer, since it glosses over the distinction between RP and PVE.
IRT #79
Of the guilds who have killed KT, they exhibit a behavior more dominant in guilds who reside on PVE servers, that is, a fairly focused and singularly oriented goal to kill the hardest bosses the fastest.
It seems fairly clear to me that if more guilds killed Kel'Thuzad on PVP servers, it is those servers who have more of a "fairly focused and singularly oriented goal to kill the hardest bosses the fastest" within their population. You seem to be saying here that "PVP servers don't have hardcore people but PVE servers do, but the people who are hardcore on PVP servers are more like people on PVE servers anyway." That's a pretty disingenuous argument.
It's a notable point that those having killed KT are on pvp servers, but it's also worth noting that the ratio of guilds actually stomping through Naxx appears to be tilted in favor of PVE servers, so the common conclusion would be that PVE servers have either a similar or higher concentration of focused players.
I'm not sure what you mean by "stomping." Do you just mean the aggregate sum of guilds who have ever entered Naxx? I'm not sure where you got that figure, or what relevance it has to your contention that "pve server[s are] way more dedicated to pve progression than pvp server[s]."
Or maybe you meant to generalize your statement in #76 that "there is by far more guilds [on PVE servers] in Naxx (especially those past patchwerk) than exists on [PVE servers]." I was going to contest this assertion by looking at WorldOfRaids again, but honestly there are so many guilds that fit this category that it would be a colossal waste of time to do so. I did look at every guild with 12 bosses or more down in Naxx; that is, guilds currently working on the Four Horsemen. I think you'd agree that guilds working on the Four Horsemen have your "focusedness" or "hardcoreness" or what have you.
Among guilds that have 12 bosses down in Naxx, according to WorldOfRaids, 138 are on PVP servers, 28 are on PVE servers, and 0 are on RP servers. These numbers are pretty staggering. I honestly wasn't expecting to see that big of a disparity.
I've kicked around on several servers, both PVE and PVP, and always found those on PVE servers to be more oriented to that goal, that's generally why people roll PVE, while those on PVP tend to at least focus a bit of their time on pvp.
Anyways, my point was that I don't find PVE servers to be any less hardcore than PVP; it's a common misconception, the same way this thread seems to throw around alot of commonly, albeit misplaced theories on what goes on other servers.
But it's not a misconception at all, if the guilds that do the best in raid instances are predominantly on PVP servers- as I've now shown twice, in #78 and in this post.
The problem with your assertions is that you put too much stock into the 'innate characteristics' of the servers (which for you seem to be that PVE servers are about people focused on progression and PVP servers are full of jerks). These really aren't that prevalent when you get down to brass tacks, as excellently shown by commenters in this thread with reference to how 'normal' the environment in RP servers really is. Meanwhile, you're ignoring the historical context that explains the dominance of PVP servers. At release, much of the "hardest core" raiding population, imported from EverQuest, made a conscious decision to roll on PVP servers rather than PVE or RP, particularly Archimonde, Tichondrius, etc. These groups of players attracted other like-minded "hardcore" players who may or may not have been in the same EQ guilds. This is where the perception that "PVP servers are for hardcore players" arose from. Once that perception took root, it became to a certain extent self-sustaining on two fronts:
1) knowing that the specific 'best guilds' were on PVP servers, hardcore players gravitated towards those servers;
2) the perception itself caused hardcore players to gravitate towards PVP servers in general to the exclusion of other server types.
And as the results I posted show, the disparity of the hardcore player population's dispersion has not been diluted in the intervening span of time.
Of course, most of the population of PVP servers are not hardcore players; likewise for PVE and RP servers. But a larger share of the "hardcore player" population is on PVP servers than PVE or RP, which is why PVP server guilds have displayed much better progression guilds on other types of server.
I think perhaps you missed a few key points that make a lot of what you are trying to say not shine as well as you would like.
A) How many people in Ergo are RPers? Seriously, how many?
There's a somewhat decent number, although admittedly a much lower number than the "raiding" type. I wasn't so much discussing the RPers as the kind of person who winds up on an RP server but ends up wanting to raid, yet doesn't see the value in improving the effectiveness of their character.
B) The fact that while you try and make it look like we are stumbling our way through content we are one of the fastest progressing raid groups on the server. We took down A’Nub on our 2nd day of attempts, we got C’Thun down to phase 2 on our second day of attempts, and many more that followed the same trend. All you have to do is look at the Raid Progression Thread to see how well we are doing, and considering that we only raid 3 nights a week and are making progress through AQ and now NAX is not something to simple brush off.
I was hardly attacking the guild's progression, more so attacking the way the guild's affairs had been handled in the past due to exactly the kind of people being discussed in this thread. There were a lot of ridiculous things that went on in Ergo, and many of them hurt raid progression and morale. I still <3 a great bunch of you, but I wouldn't go back to a guild that doesn't mind changing policies just for the convenience of a few, nor would I go back to a guild where the officers hate each other and conspire against each other in their little cliques.
Now while you seem to have some pretty strong views about the types of people that play on RP servers they do not properly reflect the reality of it. A lot of people will role on a RP server to avoid “Jerks� . RP servers have strict rules about how you can interact with other players, this helps immensely in keeping things civil whether it be in General Chat, or in PuGs that you run with. Others joined the server because they already had friends there and wanted to play with them.
I've found more jerks on RP servers than any other type of server. They not only have the PvP and PvE jerks, but RP jerks abound as well. Also, there is a general trend by just about everyone on these servers that, "Hey, I can spell properly. I must know everything about the game because I know English! Surely if I use a big word I can befuddle the minds of all those who say my way of playing the game is wrong. If nothing else works, I can just tell them they should respect other people's opinions and let them play the game how they want because they're paying their own $15/month!" The idiocy and consistency in finding such people on RP servers is appalling.
But regardless of all that, if you have a point to make, make it, but do not drag our guild into it and try painting it in a light that is not accurate to try and make your point sound valid.
As harsh as the picture I painted was, Ergo was and arguably remains one of the least messed up guilds on the server. However, it had a lot of problems, and I believe that if Ergo hadn't run into a lot of the problems, due to both members and officers, progression wouldn't be "C'Thun Phase 2 and a little bit of Naxx", but rather "Loatheb or maybe higher."
There are a good number of skilled players with good personalities in Ergo, but it's always been dragged down by about 10-20 people at any one time who couldn't get their heads straight. As well, Ergo has lost a considerable amount of good people to these problems, and suffers from the turnover because of that. I won't bring any specific names into play in this thread, because it isn't in good taste and won't serve any purpose anyway, but there are very specific examples of poor officer decisions and poor player choices which hurt the guild to a very severe degree, some of which continues to affect the guild to this day.
I wouldn't give up the experiences I had on CC for anything, but would I go back now?.....No. The grass really is greener on the other side of the fence sometimes.
Blackpatch, coming from CC you and I should both know that it is plagued with drama left and right, including in the forums. I don't know what it is about RP servers and CC in particular, but I have never seen so much drama and attrition between players and faction. I think a big part of slow progression is the fact that the big guilds on our horde side have fallen apart. KK, DFP, etc have all died... if those guilds were still running, who knows how far they would be.
If roleplaying servers had strict rules, they would be uninhabited. Self-policing isn't an option, the GMs just need to change the names of the idiots who think Iamyourmilf is a good name them.lves, rather than letting the offending player rename it himself to Iamyourmelf. More time consuming, but just put a dedicated GM onto it on RP realms, would solve a lot of problems.
I am glad exodus kill Razuvious though, means Redrum have somebody to compete with and drive the server forward. Also means the idiots in TRC will apply to them hopefully and we can abuse our beta keys.
As for continuing to bang on Vael for eight months, what else were we supposed to do? :P I mean, well, other than reroll on a PvP server--but after that much time banging on that stupid dragon we felt like we had to kill him before we left. I would have loved to have made major changes, but when you're not a guild, you can't enforce much of anything. That was probably one of the biggest hangups to our progress, actually--the complete inability to put people in time-out when they screwed up, since what we eventually became was CC's biggest PuG.
its hard to make generalities in life and wow. A significant (>80%) percentage of 10+ bosses in naxx are on PVP servers (look at www.worldofraids.com) but if you pick a random PVP server chances are progression is usually fairly weak on it, with usually lots of guild drama and the like. Old servers are definitely alliance-skewed 2:1 or more, but some of the newer servers are actually horde-skewed.
Generally you're going to see that out of the 120+ US servers, only a small fraction have the hardcore playerbase to sustain multiple naxx-deep guilds. As each guild is constantly having to recruit to fill its rosters, these are the only servers that are able to stay ahead. The other 100+ servers, of which all RP servers fit into, basically don't have enough hardcore players to support multiple Naxx guilds and therefore guilds tend to move two steps forward and one step back when a few key players quit (or transfer off).
Server transfers only made the problem infinitely worse as people transferred off their "dying" (in terms of progression) servers and concentrated more and more on a few key servers. Mal'Ganis, Korgath, Alleria, Black Dragonflight, Tich, Blackrock, etc are the few servers on which you see multiple naxx guilds, once you step off these you'll find servers with 0-2 C'Thun guilds and maybe a few guilds 3-5 bosses into Naxx but not much more.
Thats pretty much the experience on my server. Our top 2 guilds A side and top H guild all transferred off at the first available opportunity. Back then our server was such a POS that it was really the best option available to a serious raiding guild. Also, most of our current raid groups are pretty casual, in fact our most progressed raid (9 Naxx Kills and server first Ouro just last week @_@) only raids 2 nights per week.
10/04/06, 4:37 PM
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