I think we've pretty much nailed the reason why RP sux lol, though. In general, RP servers do not attract the kind of people who are successful in a raid environment. We can subjectivize it a bit more either way, but that's what it comes down to.
Not entirely true. I've raided with the top guild on an RP server and a relatively advanced guild on a PvP server.
RP server players tend to be more loyal. I was shocked at the amount of player turnover that guilds on PvP servers experience.
RP server players, in my experience, also tend to be mature and pleasant to be around.
If you assembled a group of players on an RP server that were dedicated, competitive, and Good at Video Games, I think you could really have the best of two worlds.
Note to reader: This is a fully tangential post to the initial question of the thread (why RP servers progress slower than both PVE and PVP servers). If looking for the answer to that question, feel free to skip over. The closest I come to answering it lumps RP together with PVE as the "progression-impoverished" servers, which I feel is an insufficient answer, since it glosses over the distinction between RP and PVE.
Of the guilds who have killed KT, they exhibit a behavior more dominant in guilds who reside on PVE servers, that is, a fairly focused and singularly oriented goal to kill the hardest bosses the fastest.
It seems fairly clear to me that if more guilds killed Kel'Thuzad on PVP servers, it is those servers who have more of a "fairly focused and singularly oriented goal to kill the hardest bosses the fastest" within their population. You seem to be saying here that "PVP servers don't have hardcore people but PVE servers do, but the people who are hardcore on PVP servers are more like people on PVE servers anyway." That's a pretty disingenuous argument.
It's a notable point that those having killed KT are on pvp servers, but it's also worth noting that the ratio of guilds actually stomping through Naxx appears to be tilted in favor of PVE servers, so the common conclusion would be that PVE servers have either a similar or higher concentration of focused players.
I'm not sure what you mean by "stomping." Do you just mean the aggregate sum of guilds who have ever entered Naxx? I'm not sure where you got that figure, or what relevance it has to your contention that "pve server[s are] way more dedicated to pve progression than pvp server[s]."
Or maybe you meant to generalize your statement in #76 that "there is by far more guilds [on PVE servers] in Naxx (especially those past patchwerk) than exists on [PVE servers]." I was going to contest this assertion by looking at WorldOfRaids again, but honestly there are so many guilds that fit this category that it would be a colossal waste of time to do so. I did look at every guild with 12 bosses or more down in Naxx; that is, guilds currently working on the Four Horsemen. I think you'd agree that guilds working on the Four Horsemen have your "focusedness" or "hardcoreness" or what have you.
Among guilds that have 12 bosses down in Naxx, according to WorldOfRaids, 138 are on PVP servers, 28 are on PVE servers, and 0 are on RP servers. These numbers are pretty staggering. I honestly wasn't expecting to see that big of a disparity.
I've kicked around on several servers, both PVE and PVP, and always found those on PVE servers to be more oriented to that goal, that's generally why people roll PVE, while those on PVP tend to at least focus a bit of their time on pvp.
Anyways, my point was that I don't find PVE servers to be any less hardcore than PVP; it's a common misconception, the same way this thread seems to throw around alot of commonly, albeit misplaced theories on what goes on other servers.
But it's not a misconception at all, if the guilds that do the best in raid instances are predominantly on PVP servers- as I've now shown twice, in #78 and in this post.
The problem with your assertions is that you put too much stock into the 'innate characteristics' of the servers (which for you seem to be that PVE servers are about people focused on progression and PVP servers are full of jerks). These really aren't that prevalent when you get down to brass tacks, as excellently shown by commenters in this thread with reference to how 'normal' the environment in RP servers really is. Meanwhile, you're ignoring the historical context that explains the dominance of PVP servers. At release, much of the "hardest core" raiding population, imported from EverQuest, made a conscious decision to roll on PVP servers rather than PVE or RP, particularly Archimonde, Tichondrius, etc. These groups of players attracted other like-minded "hardcore" players who may or may not have been in the same EQ guilds. This is where the perception that "PVP servers are for hardcore players" arose from. Once that perception took root, it became to a certain extent self-sustaining on two fronts:
1) knowing that the specific 'best guilds' were on PVP servers, hardcore players gravitated towards those servers;
2) the perception itself caused hardcore players to gravitate towards PVP servers in general to the exclusion of other server types.
And as the results I posted show, the disparity of the hardcore player population's dispersion has not been diluted in the intervening span of time.
Of course, most of the population of PVP servers are not hardcore players; likewise for PVE and RP servers. But a larger share of the "hardcore player" population is on PVP servers than PVE or RP, which is why PVP server guilds have displayed much better progression guilds on other types of server.
I think perhaps you missed a few key points that make a lot of what you are trying to say not shine as well as you would like.
A) How many people in Ergo are RPers? Seriously, how many?
There's a somewhat decent number, although admittedly a much lower number than the "raiding" type. I wasn't so much discussing the RPers as the kind of person who winds up on an RP server but ends up wanting to raid, yet doesn't see the value in improving the effectiveness of their character.
B) The fact that while you try and make it look like we are stumbling our way through content we are one of the fastest progressing raid groups on the server. We took down Aâ€™Nub on our 2nd day of attempts, we got Câ€™Thun down to phase 2 on our second day of attempts, and many more that followed the same trend. All you have to do is look at the Raid Progression Thread to see how well we are doing, and considering that we only raid 3 nights a week and are making progress through AQ and now NAX is not something to simple brush off.
I was hardly attacking the guild's progression, more so attacking the way the guild's affairs had been handled in the past due to exactly the kind of people being discussed in this thread. There were a lot of ridiculous things that went on in Ergo, and many of them hurt raid progression and morale. I still <3 a great bunch of you, but I wouldn't go back to a guild that doesn't mind changing policies just for the convenience of a few, nor would I go back to a guild where the officers hate each other and conspire against each other in their little cliques.
Now while you seem to have some pretty strong views about the types of people that play on RP servers they do not properly reflect the reality of it. A lot of people will role on a RP server to avoid â€œJerksï¿½ . RP servers have strict rules about how you can interact with other players, this helps immensely in keeping things civil whether it be in General Chat, or in PuGs that you run with. Others joined the server because they already had friends there and wanted to play with them.
I've found more jerks on RP servers than any other type of server. They not only have the PvP and PvE jerks, but RP jerks abound as well. Also, there is a general trend by just about everyone on these servers that, "Hey, I can spell properly. I must know everything about the game because I know English! Surely if I use a big word I can befuddle the minds of all those who say my way of playing the game is wrong. If nothing else works, I can just tell them they should respect other people's opinions and let them play the game how they want because they're paying their own $15/month!" The idiocy and consistency in finding such people on RP servers is appalling.
But regardless of all that, if you have a point to make, make it, but do not drag our guild into it and try painting it in a light that is not accurate to try and make your point sound valid.
As harsh as the picture I painted was, Ergo was and arguably remains one of the least messed up guilds on the server. However, it had a lot of problems, and I believe that if Ergo hadn't run into a lot of the problems, due to both members and officers, progression wouldn't be "C'Thun Phase 2 and a little bit of Naxx", but rather "Loatheb or maybe higher."
There are a good number of skilled players with good personalities in Ergo, but it's always been dragged down by about 10-20 people at any one time who couldn't get their heads straight. As well, Ergo has lost a considerable amount of good people to these problems, and suffers from the turnover because of that. I won't bring any specific names into play in this thread, because it isn't in good taste and won't serve any purpose anyway, but there are very specific examples of poor officer decisions and poor player choices which hurt the guild to a very severe degree, some of which continues to affect the guild to this day.
I wouldn't give up the experiences I had on CC for anything, but would I go back now?.....No. The grass really is greener on the other side of the fence sometimes.
Blackpatch, coming from CC you and I should both know that it is plagued with drama left and right, including in the forums. I don't know what it is about RP servers and CC in particular, but I have never seen so much drama and attrition between players and faction. I think a big part of slow progression is the fact that the big guilds on our horde side have fallen apart. KK, DFP, etc have all died... if those guilds were still running, who knows how far they would be.
If roleplaying servers had strict rules, they would be uninhabited. Self-policing isn't an option, the GMs just need to change the names of the idiots who think Iamyourmilf is a good name them.lves, rather than letting the offending player rename it himself to Iamyourmelf. More time consuming, but just put a dedicated GM onto it on RP realms, would solve a lot of problems.
I am glad exodus kill Razuvious though, means Redrum have somebody to compete with and drive the server forward. Also means the idiots in TRC will apply to them hopefully and we can abuse our beta keys.
As for continuing to bang on Vael for eight months, what else were we supposed to do? :P I mean, well, other than reroll on a PvP server--but after that much time banging on that stupid dragon we felt like we had to kill him before we left. I would have loved to have made major changes, but when you're not a guild, you can't enforce much of anything. That was probably one of the biggest hangups to our progress, actually--the complete inability to put people in time-out when they screwed up, since what we eventually became was CC's biggest PuG.
its hard to make generalities in life and wow. A significant (>80%) percentage of 10+ bosses in naxx are on PVP servers (look at www.worldofraids.com) but if you pick a random PVP server chances are progression is usually fairly weak on it, with usually lots of guild drama and the like. Old servers are definitely alliance-skewed 2:1 or more, but some of the newer servers are actually horde-skewed.
Generally you're going to see that out of the 120+ US servers, only a small fraction have the hardcore playerbase to sustain multiple naxx-deep guilds. As each guild is constantly having to recruit to fill its rosters, these are the only servers that are able to stay ahead. The other 100+ servers, of which all RP servers fit into, basically don't have enough hardcore players to support multiple Naxx guilds and therefore guilds tend to move two steps forward and one step back when a few key players quit (or transfer off).
Server transfers only made the problem infinitely worse as people transferred off their "dying" (in terms of progression) servers and concentrated more and more on a few key servers. Mal'Ganis, Korgath, Alleria, Black Dragonflight, Tich, Blackrock, etc are the few servers on which you see multiple naxx guilds, once you step off these you'll find servers with 0-2 C'Thun guilds and maybe a few guilds 3-5 bosses into Naxx but not much more.
Thats pretty much the experience on my server. Our top 2 guilds A side and top H guild all transferred off at the first available opportunity. Back then our server was such a POS that it was really the best option available to a serious raiding guild. Also, most of our current raid groups are pretty casual, in fact our most progressed raid (9 Naxx Kills and server first Ouro just last week @_@) only raids 2 nights per week.
Based on experience of two European RP-PvP servers:
RP-PvP realms attract a more mature, older player. Typical age late teens, early twenties. These people are more likely to have lives that preclude playing more than a few hours a day.
Consequently server populations remain younger for longer. They develop slower, so the population is more spread across the levels. All compounded by the fact the absolute active population of RP-PvP servers is low: These servers don't have queues.
You might find less than a hundred other players who are progressing through the game at the same rate as you. Most of these will fall by the wayside before getting seriously into endgame. Now try and put together a guild capable of 40-man instances.
More likely you'll make compromises which involve players who are progressing at different rates. You'll certainly be mixing player skills, experiences and aptitudes. Those compromises are very hard to hold together in a guild.
I believe that's why new RP-PvP realms take half a year to get AQ open. Unlike PvP realms, where within a month there are already a dozen guilds capable of 40-man instances, RP-PvP realms might have one, and its being held together with bits of string and sticky tape.
Compromises are what a lot of people have unknowingly alluded to in this thread. The very best hardcore guilds don't make them, do they? But on RP realms maybe you have to to get anywhere at all?
I do so love the people who over analyze, but let's take a crack at this.
My statement wasn't to insinuate that pve servers are more progressed than pvp, but that simply stating people on pvp servers on more hardcore is extremely false, having witnessed it myself.
In my experience the amount of guilds in Naxx, post Patchwerk seems to outnumber those on pvp servers. (The ones I have been on.) I believe it is generally because pve server types roll on that server with clear intent to do...pve content. It's an amazing concept, but stick with me.
Knowing that pvp servers have the most progressed is semi irrelevant to the point I was trying to make. You could make any number of assumptions, that pvp servers house more intelligent and better skilled players (This is false) or that they have more time to tromp through the instance (False as well). Probably the only thing I would think could be gotten from the slew of statistics you posted was pretty much what I attempted to say earlier, that pvp inhabitants tend to be a different type, and less prone to frustration and annoyance at things that other people would turn their nose up at. I have always been what I think most would consider hardcore, but every once in awhile someone or someone(s) will repeatedly do enough stupid shit that I want to log and call it a night, and I think those on pvp servers are less apt to do this.
As far as guilds go, no I don't think you're correct. I do not think pvp servers in general have at their core, the want to rape content as is comes out. That's a vast generalization, but it's true. I find that if you're generally interested in pve end-game, that's what you do. Not saying that someone on pvp can't be into that and can't be more advanced, but it's all about mind-set. Those on pvp servers do tend to be more want of pvp action, while those on pve servers have a very big urge to do pve content of any type.
I didn't say pve was any more hardcore than pvp, but I did argue the fact that it was the other way around. I then went on to say that in my experience I found it to be exactly the opposite and have had enough experience to think that if several servers are similar in fashion, one can draw a conclusion.
Now you can contend that the "best" guilds are on pvp servers, but that doesn't mean that to be hardcore you have to be the best. The best guilds make up a surprisingly small amount of server population. I did say pve was more progression biased, but not necessarily just for "raiding" types, but in other areas of the game as well.
Amongst the pvp/pve servers, the ones whose exploits we hear about on both servers tend to have scant talk on pvp, but quite a bit of talk on pve (Something like 8 alliance naxx guilds on pve to 4-5 on pvp.) That's my own personal experience, something that I made sure to point out.
The original point was that pvp was more "hardcore" and "progression" based than pve, and that's simply not true whatsoever. You could draw other conclusions but I don't really think this is one of them.
Edit: Editted for bad grammar and spelling and I probably missed some others -.-