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10/04/06, 12:01 PM
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#1
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Piston Honda
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Our guild is trying to figure out how things are going to work in BC. One of the things that's now set in stone, or, clay at least, is that I'm going to be switching my main from my rogue to an enhance shaman.
This presents an issue of blessing count, as there are probably 4 I'd *really* like, but there will likely be 3 pallys at most in some 25 man raids, and 2 or fewer in 10 mans. For healer/caster shaman, it isn't quite as tight a fit (I'm guessing, I dont know), but with enhance melee-buff-bot I'm not sure what to prioritize.
My first guess is, in decreasing importance...
Salvation
Wisdom
Kings
Might
Salvation. With the amount of physical dps, along with shocks, some healing aggro, and (un)lucky windfury crits, salvation really seems to be the most important to me. Whereas a dead rogue's dps = 0, a dead enhance shammy's dps is 0, and his deat will produce up to 20% dps worth of buffs lost off the rogues/warr in the group as well.
Wisdom and Kings. I'm not as sure on this one. On the one hand, with shaman mana efficiency being dismal, wisdom would seem like the clear winner. On the other hand, between judgements and the 41 pt mana-restore talent, perhaps mana will not be as much of an issue, and kings would be more important. I'm guessing mana is going to win out on this one.
Might. Pretty easy to prioritize this one last other than in a completely non-mana-using scenario, in which case it would possibly surpass Kings.
Are there other lines of thinking that I'm missing? Or, if there's another post already on this topic, pls point me that direction and I'll edit this one to read "please SH this post" ;-)
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10/04/06, 12:09 PM
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#2
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Piston Honda
Blood Elf Paladin
Bonechewer
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I'm supposing that shamans with their ability to heal, mail armor, lower dps (they better have lower dps than rogues!) and shields are not quite in the rogue boat in terms of the importance of salvation.
I'm thinking mana will still be an issue for shamans, that's just the way the class been designed from day one. So I'd say wisdom first, then kings, then might, then salvation.
Of course, it all depends on the boss you're fighting. If the boss has an aggro reducer, you'll want salvation on everybody, including healers, anyway. On a boss without an aggro knockback, top geared and buffed rogues now have a hard enough time now ripping aggro from tanks (not saying it can't be done, but they more or less have to "try" and pull aggro), so I don't anticipate a conscientious shaman to need salvation.
I have a feeling a lot of horde overrate the worth of salvation after bwl... this coming from a long time horde player who has raided sporadically with alliance.
Edit: Something just occured to me... shaman don't have innate aggro reducer that rogues have... which might put them on equal terms as far as aggro from dps goes. I still don't know that I would change the order though. Going "hard mode" without salvation on a fight that doesn't "need" it will still net you better dps.
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10/04/06, 12:24 PM
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#3
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Great Tiger
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I would argue that Salvation is still the most important in raids not so much for the individual but for the raid. Having a Shaman accidentally pull aggro on a mob enough for it to turn and run towards the casters or use its directional attack on the non-tanks just makes a lot unnecessary work for the rest of the raid. Especially since it is easily buffered against with a single spell cast.
In five man groups, I can see how Wisdom would be more beneficial. Unless the Paladin is tanking. :)
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10/04/06, 12:37 PM
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#4
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Don Flamenco
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Shaman have absolutely no way of controlling or reducing their DPS aggro short of dying or ceasing action. Give them Salvation first or give them a rez after the fight. Unless aggro just isn't an issue, obviously.
Wisdom might not be necessary. Judgement of Wisdom is going to be the greatest source of Shaman mana regen (something on the order of 200-300 mp5 while attacking). An extra 33/5 is nice but I might prefer Might or Kings for the increased crit (Unleashed Rage), AP (Shamanistic Rage), etc. Blessing of Might alone will boost long-term Shamanistic Rage returns by approximately 20-30 mp5 anyway, and increasing their damage to boot.
I think I'd prioritize order as: Salvation (if aggro is an issue) - Might - Kings/Wisdom.
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JUICE! Aww I'm sorry. Did... did anyone want some juice?
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10/04/06, 12:37 PM
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#5
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Von Kaiser
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Your order makes a lot of sense there. I would second Salvation as the most important. Shaman DPS may be low, but it's plenty enough to pull aggro when you consider that we're generating 20% more threat than rogue/warriors and have zero abilities to control it. My shaman is in pretty lousy gear, but I'm already amazed at how much I can spike up the threat meter, particularly if 3-4 windfuries go off in a row.
On the second choice, I'd probably go with wisdom(unless it's been judged, then naturally it falls down the list). Assuming you have salvation already, then you're probably blasting away with mana inefficient shocks, storm strikes and possibly heals. With the whole item value system in place you're going to be lacking on mana and it remains to be seen whether shamanistic rage can sustain you on its own.
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10/04/06, 1:17 PM
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#6
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Von Kaiser
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As a shaman, first thing I'd want is salvation. Lots of chain heals and melee damage add up to a not insignificant amount of aggro. Second is kings, for obvious reason. Last is wisdom. An enhancement shaman has quite a few ways to regen mana in TBC.
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10/04/06, 1:22 PM
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#7
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Protector
Ashstrike
Human Paladin
No WoW Account
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Again, it is tought to know what is needed, but salvation is a good bet if Rockbiter (the best sustained dps weapon buff) still creates double aggro.
Kings is second because as a hybrid, Shaman use all their stats, then Might, and lastly Wisdom, since with JoW and Shamanistic rage you may have a bit of mana.
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10/04/06, 1:27 PM
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#8
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Piston Honda
Blood Elf Paladin
Bonechewer
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On a somewhat related note, can anyone tell me what the designer's note on http://thottbot.com/?sp=20871 is supposed to mean? I suspect it's somewhat of a hint regarding rockbiter's threat mechanics, but I can't figure out what it means.
Or maybe someone can just peg a threat value to rockbiter for me.
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10/04/06, 1:35 PM
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#9
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Don Flamenco
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Originally Posted by Quasar
Shaman have absolutely no way of controlling or reducing their DPS aggro short of dying or ceasing action. Give them Salvation first or give them a rez after the fight. Unless aggro just isn't an issue, obviously.
Wisdom might not be necessary. Judgement of Wisdom is going to be the greatest source of Shaman mana regen (something on the order of 200-300 mp5 while attacking). An extra 33/5 is nice but I might prefer Might or Kings for the increased crit (Unleashed Rage), AP (Shamanistic Rage), etc. Blessing of Might alone will boost long-term Shamanistic Rage returns by approximately 20-30 mp5 anyway, and increasing their damage to boot.
I think I'd prioritize order as: Salvation (if aggro is an issue) - Might - Kings/Wisdom.
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This is pretty much exactly what i was going to say. Judgement of Wisdom dwarfs Blessing of Wisdom for an enhance shaman. BoW is last priority, and because of the lack of an aggro dump and innate aggro reduction, Salvation is the top priority.
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10/04/06, 2:33 PM
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#10
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Glass Joe
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Something to remember is that blessings affect every member of a class, so the likely scenario (in a raid setting) is that enhancement shaman will recieve salvation/wisdom/kings, because those are the buffs most beneficial to non-enhancement shaman. In a raid with only two paladins you'll be even worse off, as kings is more likely to be dropped than wisdom.
Unless enhancement shaman are the majority on a raid, I can't see ever giving them Might. The only workaround is asking your wisdom paladin to short buff it, which is kind of a pain in the ass.
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10/04/06, 2:49 PM
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#11
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Don Flamenco
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Originally Posted by Granstein
Something to remember is that blessings affect every member of a class, so the likely scenario (in a raid setting) is that enhancement shaman will recieve salvation/wisdom/kings, because those are the buffs most beneficial to non-enhancement shaman. In a raid with only two paladins you'll be even worse off, as kings is more likely to be dropped than wisdom.
Unless enhancement shaman are the majority on a raid, I can't see ever giving them Might. The only workaround is asking your wisdom paladin to short buff it, which is kind of a pain in the ass.
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If it's a pain in the ass for a Paladin to cast a 5-minute buff on one player a few times on a boss fight, I have a set of 1-2 minute duration totems I'd like to shove into the aforementioned ass.
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JUICE! Aww I'm sorry. Did... did anyone want some juice?
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10/04/06, 2:50 PM
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#12
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Don Flamenco
Draenei Shaman
Magtheridon
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Only the 15 Min blessings affect every member of the class. Much in the same way that you wouldn't bless your DPS wars and MTs the same way, you wouldn't bless Enh shaman and Ele/Resto shaman the same way, nor would you bless Feral Druids and Resto/Balance druids the same way. Whispercasting the 5 min blessings would probably be the best way to handle the crossover. Paladins are the only class who will be using the same amount of regents to buff the entire raid, more infact since the have an extra class to buff now, which is interesting to note. With a 3 Paladin Setup the general Cross over is probably going to be similar to what it is now, Kings, Might/Wisdom, Salvation/Light. Salvation and Kings are to good to pass up, really. In a three paladin situation, Salvation, Kings, and then a single target might. In a two/one paladin situation, if say one paladin isn't there, or the raid requires some stacking and one had to be left behind, then Salvation, and a single target Might, if possible.
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10/04/06, 2:54 PM
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#13
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King Hippo
Human Paladin
Bleeding Hollow
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Originally Posted by Quasar
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Originally Posted by Granstein
Something to remember is that blessings affect every member of a class, so the likely scenario (in a raid setting) is that enhancement shaman will recieve salvation/wisdom/kings, because those are the buffs most beneficial to non-enhancement shaman. In a raid with only two paladins you'll be even worse off, as kings is more likely to be dropped than wisdom.
Unless enhancement shaman are the majority on a raid, I can't see ever giving them Might. The only workaround is asking your wisdom paladin to short buff it, which is kind of a pain in the ass.
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If it's a pain in the ass for a Paladin to cast a 5-minute buff on one player a few times on a boss fight, I have a set of 1-2 minute duration totems I'd like to shove into the aforementioned ass.
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The 5 minute blessing in raids problem is an already a corrected design flaw. Why? Because the situation you describe did really negatively impact the usefulness of blessings/paladins in boss fights. Thanks for the constructive feedback though!
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10/04/06, 3:07 PM
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#14
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Don Flamenco
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Originally Posted by goss
The 5 minute blessing in raids problem is an already a corrected design flaw. Why? Because the situation you describe did really negatively impact the usefulness of blessings/paladins in boss fights. Thanks for the constructive feedback though!
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I was a Dwarf Priest in a Naxx-raiding endgame guild for a long time before letting the account expire and playing my Shaman full-time. I know all about the evolution of Paladin Blessings, thanks, and occasionally keeping up short-term buffs for this kind of situation was never really a problem for any of our Paladins. Amazing how the occasional Feral druid got Might while his healing brethren had Wisdom from the same Paladin without him whining about how hard it was for him.
Constantly dropping-refreshing-redropping 1k mana worth of totems to keep in range and such is fun. A 5-minute fire-and-forget rangeless buff has got to be downright rough. I feel for Paladins, honestly. You can't quite hear it, but the tugging on my heartstrings is producing a hauntingly beautiful concerto.
That said, I'll probably roll a BE Paladin eventually to play with my girlfriend's future BE Rogue. Self-loathing ftw!
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JUICE! Aww I'm sorry. Did... did anyone want some juice?
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10/04/06, 3:12 PM
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#15
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King Hippo
Human Paladin
Bleeding Hollow
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Originally Posted by Quasar
I was a Dwarf Priest in a Naxx-raiding endgame guild for a long time before letting the account expire and playing my Shaman full-time. I know all about the evolution of Paladin Blessings, thanks, and occasionally keeping up short-term buffs for this kind of situation was never really a problem for any of our Paladins. Amazing how the occasional Feral druid got Might while his healing brethren had Wisdom from the same Paladin without him whining about how hard it was for him.
Constantly dropping-refreshing-redropping 1k mana worth of totems to keep in range and such is fun. A 5-minute fire-and-forget rangeless buff has got to be downright rough. I feel for Paladins, honestly. You can't quite hear it, but the tugging on my heartstrings is producing a hauntingly beautiful concerto.
That said, I'll probably roll a BE Paladin eventually to play with my girlfriend's future BE Rogue. Self-loathing ftw!
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Its not that it was hard, its that it reduced the effectiveness of whatever else your paladins could be doing by spending globals single buffing. Complain about shamans independently and spit your bile elsewhere too, cause the design flaws (corrected, perceived or otherwise) are unrelated.
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