What?

Yeah, but is anyone disagreeing that rogues shouldn't have the highest single-target DPS? Because they should. However, that is an end easily achieved, and doesn't necessitate some huge warrior nerf, I think.

It always makes me chuckle when we have Poisons, and as Kalman said, stuns and CCs listed as utility. The only poison that brings even marginal utility in raids are Wound Poison and Mind-Numbing Poison. Wound I've used in two raid encounters in the past two years. Ebonroc and Bug Trio. Wound is easily outdone by Mortal Strike. 50% will almost always be greater than the negligible flat rate of Wound Poison, definitely so in any raid situation. Mind-Numbing Poison is great, I love it for dueling, but on fights where it's useful (not many) it's just easier to throw on Curse of Tongues and call it a day. That leaves our other poisons that are useful in raids. However they're both damage poisons and only add to our primary role of making stuff dead. That's not utility. Even the new poison only reduces our own threat. I'd love it if it were a debuff that reduced the threat of all attacks made against the poisoned target. And this is only for Alliance Warriors really. Horde have Windfury.

Kalman already listed how CC's and Stuns and Interrupts aren't particularly needed or efficient.

Hunters talents are just about final (I think Tuesday will have an offical release), so there isn't much in flux for me. The only questions I have are how much will pets scale (it will determine the best builds). Aimed Shot not being all that great/Pets maybe being great opens up a lot of choices.


I really don't see a special role for Rogues (other than top melee dps and stuns). Daze was an attempt, but I don't think it is worth getting.

I bet they will put a few locks in dungeons to give Rogues something special (but engineering/BS can open them too).

There is no doubt that balanced encounter design is a big reason. And the reason that both sides need both classes is because of the "utility" they bring. It's clearly not for dps, healing or tanking, both sides have that coverd. So it is for "utility."

The point remains that "utility" is a huge part of the game.

Pay attention. Warriors require a nerf because simply put they are capable of too much at the cost of too little.

Even Rogues, the most specialized class in the game, must give up something to excel in one area. Combat Daggers loses most of the Rogue's PvP viability by speccing the way they do. Combat Swords essentially becomes a Warrior with stuns but without plate.

What do Warriors lose by speccing Fury? The ability to Main Tank some bosses. That's it. Now please explain why Warriors have the potential to be the best tanking class in the game and the best damage dealer in the game.

So let's take away warrior DPS and give them a ton of "utility" to make up for it. An AoE snare. An AoE fear. Debuffs and buffs. Perhaps a stun or two? An attack speed debuff would be nice, for that matter.

Oh, wait. So, let's just take away their DPS instead.

"Utility", by it's very nature, isn't something you can balance for, and it'll never match up to the trinity. Nice to have? Sure. But never as essential, never as useful, never as needed, and never as valued as the trinity.

Let's get down to brass tacks. I would like to hear an explaination that does not boil down to "I don't want to give up my dps, they just need to make other classes stronger", as to why it is not a problem that a warrior can effectively be the best single target dps and the best tank?

Granted, what we are seeing are a lot of disgruntled rogues in this thread. It would be a problem if the argument were not completely and 100% valid. I just don't understand how the warriors do not see it as an issue. If a paladin were capable of being just as good a healer as a priest with one set of equipment/build and then being a better tank than a full protection warrior with another, would that be a problem? Probably the wrong question to ask, since most of the warriors who are clutching to thier dps teddy bear's for dear life could give two craps about the tanking role...

For those of you warriors that have not played a legitimate hybrid class, the issue is: for whatever reason, blizzard has deemed it with both itemization and talents for you to be 100% effective at two seperate roles that are otherwise *exclusive* to primary classes that have no other alternative.

It's very easy to sit back and say "other classes should be able to be just as effective at multiple roles as we are" when you are the only class that is capable of it.

I think a lot of non-warriors are completely discounting how much tanking a warrior loses when they give up imp shield block AND toughness. Losing 10% armor and getting crushing blowed is a huge hit on tanking effectiveness. There is a very good reason why many fury warriors put 11 points min into protection instead of going 100% dps.

It's a huge hit for maintanking content mobs like Maexxna or Loatheb or Patchwerk.

It's a minimal hit for being an offtank or tanking the somewhat more trivial bossmobs.

Again, nobody is saying "Fury warriors can put on their tank gear and maintank Sapphiron, wtf!" But they can put on their tank gear and soak HSes. They can put on their tank gear, respec, and tank Sapphiron. That's a significant reason to gear them and to bring them to raids, and it's one no other DPS class sees.

I know, make bosses who are not immune to slowing affects! Hunters become the best tanks in the game! Distracting Shot FTW!

This is going in circles at this point. Interesting discussion, but 22 pages in just over two days is a good sign that not every post in there is careful and measured in its tone and content.