thaddius doesn't really have normal boss aggro mechanics because he can be taunted.

Fair enough, but even so it's not like Loatheb or Patchwerk where it is nigh-impossible to pull aggro and die. I mean normal in the sense there is no mechanic actively making the boss ignore DPS classes.

This reminds of that old fairy tale of God being up in Heaven and going around to each animal in the circle and saying "Ok, you get 2 things, what do you want to be good at?" and they all picked their 2 things and all the creatures were made.

Except perhaps for this argument, we should say that they have 5 points, and they can spend up to 5 in each part of either:

1. tanking
2. healing
3. DPS

And each of the classes gets their little distribution:

Warrior puts some in tanking and DPS (maybe 4 tanking and 1 in DPS)
Rogue puts all 5 in DPS
Mage puts all 5 in DPS
Warlock puts 4 in DPS and 1 in healing (maybe a small amount in tanking, this is a really strange analogy)
Priests put 4 in healing and 1 in DPS
Druids put 3 in healing, 1 in tanking, 1 in DPS
Shamans put 2 in healing, 1 in tanking, 2 in DPS
Hunters put 5 in DPS
Paladins put 2 in healing, 2 in tanking, 1 in DPS

And in this idealized picture, we'd all be happy, because it's all balanced. The problem, from a holistic approach, is that Warriors seem to have gotten more points to spend (more than 5) than the other classes! They're performing practically like gods, where they are actually spending 5 points in Tanking, and 6 points in DPS! The other classes cry foul - why should the warriors get extra points to spend?

And the warriors say No No No, it's all balanced, it's balanced, but it seems that now, God is realizing his mistake and is taking away some of their DPS points (although they will <probably> still get more than 5 allocated points anyway).



The above was an analogy - for upfront melee damage, Rogues should be top at the highest level of gear with equal skill. Mages should have the highest ranged damage (hunters, in theory, should be able to match this if allowed the use of their pets). Rogues/Mages should be about equal, and at least where I stand, this is the case. Warriors are doing too much damage with DPS specs than they should be, because of the other role they can perform, and that is the crux of the argument.

Then you must not have experienced fights such as Sapphiron yet. I would bring eight priests, eight shamans and two druids there in a heartbeat, if we had such numbers. We make do with what we have, our warriors are just simply very active and the turnover rate on that specific class is non-existant.

More accurately, they're the fights that matter RIGHT NOW. There's nothing to say that the next fight that matters doesn't give the rogues a large boost (or mages... or locks.. etc).

As for you not seeing aggro being as big as warrior make it out to be... (this isn't intended to be rude though I'm sure it'll sound it) simply stated, if you don't play one in these situations then you don't know. It really IS as big an issue as say.

Also, a warrior can jump back up after a BR and start to DPS just like a rogue can. However you're less likely too and hence won't be not attacking for the 30s or so it'd take to get back up and into the fray. I really don't think anyone in a raid considers DPS until you pull aggro, BR, repeat as a good idea for raid DPS.

www.overratedguild.com

Anyway, I wouldn't like to bring 18 healers to any fight, realistically. We don't even have 8 priests or 8 shaman that we could bring to Saph even if we wanted to.

That guy pretending that tm in prot is "allowing more build options" instead of simply stopping 31 30 makes me want to slap him. Why cant he just come out and say they don't want ms flurry warriors running around, I could handle that much better than this bullshit.

In his first post Kalgan pretty much said that. He said that TM being in prot was to make MS/Flurry not be the ideal arms build for pvp.

Yeah, I understood his comments to mean that if they left TM where it was, there would be only one build. Moving TM forces some tradeoffs so that the ideal build isn't so obvious and perhaps allows some variation.

No idea if it will actually work out like that, but that's kinda what he said.

I may be playing a different game than you, since I can identify more areas of interest in terms of raiding than those three. Having a successful raid is not only about having the correct amount of healing, tanking and damage, as you also need class-specific skills in many fights. Warriors have no such skills, whereas the other classes are more or less filled with them, with the rogues getting the shortest end of the stick by having only stuns. I do agree on with the sentiment of most people here that especially hunters need either increased raid viability or just plain more damage dealing capabilities.

sure, and in those cases fury warriors can go completely wild and do insane damage. while we can't ignore those fights, we can't base our perception of what is and isn't balanced completely on those fights either. i've lost count of how many times we've had a fury warrior ignore his aggro ceiling and just splatter instantly. yes, the major enrage fights in naxx also happen to be the least aggro sensitive, but that doesn't mean we won't see enrage fights with touchy aggro in the future.

i do think (and apparently blizzard agrees!) that warrior damage is a bit too high right now, and it only becomes so at high gear levels because of rage scaling. these changes are clearly an attempt to reign that in somewhat, and that seems like a step in the right direction.

I can't say I'm ecstatic about the rage normalization business, but the blue posts seem pretty thought out and valid

er, I'm pretty sure we've done raids recently with 9+ mages, and we definitely used to run MC with 8+ rogues

I disagree. With the buff to Shield Slam a while back, aggro has become pretty much become a non-issue, except on two fights: Noth and Patchwerk.

Noth wipes his threat every time he blinks, yet a warrior can still top damage done by watching his aggro closely right after a blink. If he doesn't watch his aggro, he will die every time he does this fight.

Patchwerk is an interesting case. If the third HS tank doesn't get hit by enough HSs, DPS warriors will take turns becoming the new 3rd HS tank at somewhere between 830-850 DPS, depending on how many heroic strikes you've thrown in there. When that happens, it's just a matter of time until you die.

There are simply no other aggro issues to be had for a DPS warrior in Naxx, unless you count getting aggro on Razuvious because a transition between Understudies was botched. As a "balanced" fury warrior, I've beaten every rogue across several guilds on close to every boss fight, and still done plenty of tanking/offtanking when needed (consumables easily help bridge the tanking gear gap). If I wanted to, tomorrow I could spec protection and start tanking content - an option no single-dimension DPS class can do. It's ridiculous, and certainly not fair.

I flatly refuse to believe anyone who continues to refer to warriors in their current incarnation as "balanced." These changes were a long time in coming. They won't please everyone, but people will adapt in time.

Were those 9+ mages all spec'd fire? A la an intentional gimmick?

Also, when you say "used to run MC with 8+ rogues" - was that just trying to get first rag kills?

And who brings warriors into raids because of those specific abilities? Noone. As you bring a tank, you also gain the first two abilities, and since Thunderfury is more common than having biological parents nowadays, it makes Thunderclap quite redundant. I have to agree on Battleshout, it is indeed a very nice damage boost for the rogues.

The only fight in Naxxramas where warriors can go all out is Loatheb, Patchwerk and Razuvious being quite near. Rest of the encounters are dominated by rogues and those warriors that know how to make most of their abilities while keeping an eye out on the hate they generate.

you should base it on an average of fights. for us, warriors are rarely on top for fights other than thaddius/loatheb/patchwerk, and even on those fights they're not as far ahead of the pack as you're implying they always are (although we are alliance and don't have windfury). you can't count 4h obviously because they're all tanking, but sapphiron and kel'thuzad stage 2 are incredibly favorable to ranged classes, as are grob/gluth/heigan.

Well, my warlock has been hit with 2K white crits from severence (not even DEOI/MoM) warriors. In my humble opinion, that's pretty broken. However, that 2k white crit also just gave that warrior a full rage bar. If I were going about the re-evaluation I'd also be looking at the current 2h itemization in the game, as well as the rage mechanic.

it's also interesting to note that in the expansion, assuming hunter mechanics are shifted to 1 AGI = 1 AP, warriors will be the only class in the game that gets 2 attack power per stat point.

I thought bear and cat form druids also got similarly-designed multipliers. Bears get an armor multiplier, and I *thought* cats got more AP from AGI.

I don't think it is a problem of being able to spend your rage as it is what you spend it on. I have never had problems using up all my rage if I so chose. The problem arises when it's not worth using it, which is most of the time, as we have no hate reduction abilities apart from the innate reduction from battle and berserker stance. I just hope that we don't become rogues with rage in the expansion. I just love the style of play I get with my warrior, both when doing damage and tanking. If that is not being touched, then I'm fine with this change.

Warriors have a huge amount of utility. Sunder armor, demo shout, thunderclap, battle shout, the new + health shout, piercing howl, etc. In the matter of utility they offer far more than rogues do. Their biggest utility of course being they can throw on Wrath and a shield and be a perfectly good tank. No one is saying nerf warriors completely in damage. They are just saying make some tweaks to drop them down a bit, maybe to somewhere in mage level dmg.