I know there are topics on guild merges, and yes I have read them. But at moment I only ask on behalf of my own guild,

Basically the guild I lead exists for 11 months. I had left my former raiding guild just as they started in BWL. I was full of ideals on how to make a fully democratic raiding guild. Luckily we got a few pro players in, and 2 people followed me from the raiding guild. I had a good reputation on my realm for leading things like the first MC PUG runs (when only one guild existed who had the numbers to go in there), and frequent ZG groups with their own DKP system (how cute).

In the span of a week we had the 40 people we aimed for, and started plowing through MC. We cleared this in record time, then moved onto BWL. We had zero point form the start and turn out for Razorgore was never our problem either. We just kept on recruiting and recruiting and recruiting due to our good name. And yet we always had everything diplomatic. This also lead us to voting no on Applications of very superior geared people, etc. Eventually we came to a stop when we hit Chromaggus. Not that he troubled us, but the guild had grown so terrible in size that too much dramah arouse over raid spots, and it was very clear that only certain ones were actual efficient players who we would need in BWL to press on. It was absolutely my fault I put my guild into this dilemma. I recruited and recruited every time we could not fill a raid. This also lead to more and more people growing casual, or social even. Our memberbase eventually hit something like 200. Since we had snatched up quite some hardcore people from the day they hit 60 and they were used to our very fast progress, they eventually jumped ship when a much better organized hardcore guild came along. Others were poached away from other guilds and suddenly we saw ourselves in the dumps for the first time.

A refounding was thought up and it took more than a month of planning. We came up with a great zero points system (which was done on weekly basis, so allowing to give points for no loot nights), we put in very strict attendance and performance requirements, and we were just really getting up there again. Just a few days after farming we killed Chrom with TL without a sweat, and very short after Nef fell to our feet. We started clearing our path in AQ40, and happily turned down every great applicant as we never wanted to extend our member base beyond 60 (~60 folks all raiding 75% = bingo). We also tried to weed out other possible problems such as dramah, bad raid preparation, slackers. To this point I can truthfully say when we have 40 in raid, we have 40 absolutely prepared (guides, consumables), and dedicated people. Noone leaves mid raid, noone /afks around. We just got to Huhuran when however our MT left. This did not go without a mass amount of dramah. Yet the guild did totally well without him. Our progress was still improving, we were still doing better each raid. But nevertheless this person started a personal vendetta and got some of his friends to leave our guild, which were also key members. This we could have survived as well if it weren't for one of our Raid Leaders getting burnt out as well as the next MT to get stressed out. So 4 more left, in this case to the most advanced guild on my realm. In turn 2 personal friends took a proper break. Now I find myself with 30 signing in for our raids, just cause we never built a big bolster for the wait list. I was too busy actually trimming each class to top shape (which they are now) to realize that both the top guilds on our realm (Horde and Alliance) were getting the Naxxramas burn out. Not only that, several people on my realm were next hacked, leaving to more dismay and low morale.

Now we only have 1 serious Naxxramas guild on my faction (Horde severely terribly pathetically underpopulated) is to the point of recruiting anyone to fill spots. No matter where from, no matter in which gear. The available recruits are immediately put into Naxx guilds after just 10 days played, people are burned out like they were just the sum of their epix and for guilds like mine, there are not many scraps left to feast on. The problem is, we have an absolutel fair play policy. We had decent people of guilds applying to us that were falling apart, and never accepted one until the guild officially disbanded. We want only people who stick it out till the bitter end, so never really considered those who jump ship. We prefer our applicants on a level below ours even. We have 2 split DKP systems (one for farmed raids, one for learning) so it is actually very speedy and efficient to gear and shape them up. I do claim we are very friendly towards new blood. But nowadays the pool of people we could recruit without poaching (which we just won't) consists of people who barely even speak the same language as us. When skillswise we are definately up there. Where every Warrior, DPS or not can tank every boss we nailed, where every Healer can perfectly fill every Healing role, where a MT and keyplayer can just stop existing and we carry on per norm. But then to take someone in greens, who barely speaks the same language, who has never even done 5 man instances just slows you down no end. And knowing how it works out of 10-15 people closer to 2-3 even stick around in very long term. We do not keep around who attends little, we do not keep around those who make dramah, we do not keep around who does not prepare, does not read guides, does not contribute, does not do as good performance as we would expect, etc. I do however think we would heavily struggle to even find 15 people to trial and error. Furthermore the gearing up of several new Raiders will eventually burn out our current members and make them more likely to follow poaching attempts (all of our Healers for instance, constantly get poaching attempts, even I as the GM O_o). But we have lost too many to continue with just 30 to a raid. At the same time it's a risk to take all those new people and then have 2 classes again. The hardcore who pull the newbs through, out of which many won't even stick around.

So what to do really? Try to get random 15 people in while even the most sought after guild on the realm can not fill spots, and hope no more leave now the stabilty is already lost?

Just /gdisband and give the other bled out guild something to feast on for a day or two (on my realm they are accepting bids on which of the 4 Nef+ guilds will fall first).

Or try a merge with one of the other bled out guilds? There is one in particular who have the same silly ethics of no poaching, no bragging, steady progress, etc. They say merges can ruin it. But they also say reformation can, and for us it was just the best thing ever. It would also feel like a bit of a step back towards before our reformation if we merged with another guild who is less hardcore in their ways.

P.S. Sorry for all from Draenor reading this, I stand by everything I said above and did not feel like hiding underneath some Alias.

Boyh you dont half write an essay :) Seems the drama just follows you around. Draenor(EU)-apart from being the shittest server with maintenance and down time do have a very small pool of people to recruit from. Our guild also has had troubles with numbers in certain classes -and there being nobody fill the gaps without a lot of gearing. And members and the falling of guilds on our server has aided us in progressing a lot faster then i thought we would.

I honestly don't think its worth the hassle gearing people at this very late stage in the lvl 60 part of the game. Im quite bitter about not being able to complete Naxx and see everything i could of before TBC came out but you just have to make the most of what time you have left, and think about what you are going to do between now and TBC. - This question has been gone through many pages on our private forum.

If you think you can achieve something that will make you and your guild happy by merging with another then go for it. Just think to yourself tho what are you going to do when TBC comes out -considering the end of 40 man raiding. Do you really want to expand your guild to people you hardly know or do you wanna make a tight knitt guild focussing to the future and 25 man instances?

Im sad to hear the situation of your guild as it brings back memories of our reform, and was surprised seeing people like Kaywinnit joining Chimaera after all the time she was in Wiped. I wish you good luck in what you descide! You have my support.

With the end of 40 man raids in50 days, all signs point to no.

Dun forget about MC/BWL/AQ40 and crap.

PS: If this was stated in the OP then I did not read it. I write walls of text...not read them.

A smart person once told me that a merger atm would only be a good idea on Aq40 and Naxx. You still should be able to handle MC and BWL for each guild alone, just get together for AQ40 and NAxx, and wait it out for the expansion, since then you only need your current 30ish people.

This is an interesting one actually - the previous guild I ran was basically dying a slow death from attrition and burnout about four months ago. Wanting to continue playing the game the reasons I enjoy it (raiding progress), we decided to merge with another guild on the server that was suffering a similar fate. We went from having 30 online every evening to suddenly having 60 online, and made a tremendous amount of progress in two months (went from Twin Emps down to Thaddius down).

Then we hear about 25 man raids.

And while you might think "doh, shouldn't have merged", frankly I don't regret it at all. For several reasons: if a merge is done the right way and for the right reasons, it can be an awesome endeavour because you get to know a whole new crew of likeminded people. Of course there will be growing pains and adjustments, but I am really looking forward to TBC with the guys in my guild, some of whom I've known for over a year, some for only a couple of months. The fact is I still enjoy playing with them, so it's certainly not a negative result. The second reason is that if we had not merged, I doubt I would still be playing. When you've been raiding for over a year (and leading a good proportion of those raids), there's only so much ZG and limping through AQ with 30 people that you can take before your sanity just gets shredded. I can say without too much hesitation that if I'd spent another couple of months stressing about recruitment and making no forward progress whatsoever, I'd probably have walked away by now. As it turns out, the merge has reinvigorated all of our players with a renewed interest and enthusiasm for progressing and hopefully seeing as much of Naxx as we can.

The two guilds that merged were united by a desire to move forward in PvE and kill some new shit. If you have another guild on your server that feels the same way as you, open the lines of communication, meet with their officers, and see what the landscape looks like. Admittedly, there's not much more time left before Naxx is gone forever, but as I said before, a merge with the right people done the right way can be a great thing. While as a small guild, you might be able to hang on until TBC comes out, don't be surprised if you lose quite a few people on the way that want to get stuff done now rather than in the future.

Ikini, she left for different reasons than poor progress, etc. A full time job + a very full table of responsibilities in a guild are not everyone's definition of fun.

Also about the "no don't merge, we got 25 mans coming out". Do you not remember the history of Draenor (or any other server). When we had so many people playing. Almost everyone to ding 60 was sucked up into the first raiding guild. And the guild we were in together was first founded in a similair approach "we do not need to get along, we only need the same goal" (I know this long changed by now, thank god). So I do feel if already the folks in my guild are stressed out due to the trickling effect, and then we just barely manage to stick around till BC, then the hopes are so high it, some might not even make it past 61 having expected more. Others will ding 70 in no time, while those with job, family, house, life, whatever will be around the 62 mark. Do the 70s stick around an eternitiy for others to level, or will this be the final straw and make them leave? If you merge with another guild you are at least given the higher chance of starting 25 man raids reasonably soon. Well that's just my theory anyways.

Vael, yes it would probably for some Twemp/ Naxx kicking before expansion if anything. Though I do find BWL actually quite hard when you never put it on 1 day farm (always took about 5 hours still). When you just lost your second MT, one of the most brill Raid Leaders we had, and just don't have the numbers at any point. Well today we will try out how 30 of us will do^^

Bubba, thanks for the response. I was kinda hoping to have more than theorycraft as replies. So an actual "we did merge, and it worked" is good feedback. Hope you don't mind if I send a PM? :)

Edited some typos out...

Feel free.

Why merge when you can just temporarily form an alliance until the xpac?

Only from personal experience of our members, many Alliances tried on this realm ended in one side immediately dumping the other when they prospered enough from the Alliance to stand on their own feet.

Maybe a change in recruitment policy is the only thing needed. It comes with the risk of wearing out the old members more, but it's not thaaaat long till the xpansion afterall. And my guild was one of the only who did not take a summer break (wasn't needed, and still noone burned out), so maybe we can relax a bit.

Well, if you can't fill raids right now, you have three choices.
1) Keep recruiting heavily to keep raids filled.
2) Find an external source of bodies via:
2a) Merger
2b) Alliance
3) Stop raiding until the xpac.

Many guilds are hitting pre-xpac fatigue right now, so if you are doing #1, you are competing for a dimishing source of applicants. We personally are going 2b, since it lets us keep raiding, and doesn't add additional heartache after the xpac, when the other 50 people who stopped playing over the summer come back for the new content.