While a tremendous deal of information has been posted on this forum regarding looting systems, I wanted to revisit the topic in light of the clean slate opportunity TBC is going to provide. Is there a general consensus about what the ideal loot point system is, assuming no legacy restrictions?

From what I've been reading, a good system would be:

- Sum-zero
- Instance caps with a cap increase for resistance gear
- Items values based on their ilvl taking into account a slot modifier and a subjectivity modifer based on how well an item was (or was not) designed

Please note, this is not a thread about your loot system or how your guild currently does it. Just because something has always been done some way in the past does not mean that it should be done that way in the future. This is a thread about "If you could do it all over again..."

Something to consider is that never has so much raid content been released simultaneously. No one's ever had to take into account things like raid-level rewards from PvP. We know they'll have sets - as evidenced by the PvP sets - but we don't know whether there will be a set per raid instance (like Tier 1 for MC, Tier 2 for Onyxia/BWL, Tier 3 for Naxx) or whether they'll scatter the pieces of one set across all the various raid instances.

In light of this, any ideas or thoughts people would like to contribute on upgrades, forced assignment of gear or any other issues I might be missing or simply failing to understand, please share it. Your thought process and reasoning clearly explained will be invaluable. Lots of guilds will be torn asunder by the pressures of TBC and others will rise to take their place. It would be good to have a single resource for them to turn to for best practices.


25-spot Onyxia style Raids:

Magtheridon's Lair
Gruul's Lair: Ogre King and his Council
Gruul's Lair: Gruul


10-spot Raids:

Karazhan


25-spot Raids:

Caverns of Time: Battle of Mount Hyjal
Coilfang Reservoir: Serpentshrine Cavern
Tempest Keep: Eye of the Storm
Black Temple: Illidian

Reserved for references I'm going to add when I get a chance later today.

The CMs did say that Karazan (10-man) would have at least some of the Tier 4 set there, so that implies that the sets will be distributed over a few different instances.

Er... Great decision! Spliting sets across instances. Because everybody loves running MC for T2 pants to complete their set.

Well that's more to do with MC being a) drastically older than BWL, where the rest of the set is accrued, b) less diverse in design and therefore less interesting, and c) containing a generally lower quality of loot than BWL. That's what makes it a chore -- take those factors away and it's no longer a problem.

The problem with MC is that it has two tiers of gear, not that Tier 2 is split across multiple instances. Some of Tier 2 coming from Onyxia doesn't cause problems, and if Naxx was four different instances scattered across the world, Tier 3 wouldn't be any harder to get.

I am actually going to mention what my guild is does, but only because we are asking ourselves this exact question, and the guild is being created specifically for The Burning Crusade.

We are, in fact:
- zero-sum
- instance-capped
- fixed cost, with costs based on iLevel and a slot modifier
- items that are repeatedly passed on may be given special reductions due to their suckiness

The one thing to add is that we've adopted Rebirth's upgrade system, which seemed to fit the twin goals of being a) simple, and b) fair to new recruits. Anyone can pay full price for an item at any time (subject to having the DKP, obviously). If someone has an item that would be costed in our system (any level 61+ epic at the moment, can't say how it will work for the expansion), then they can upgrade, in which case they pay the difference in prices between the old and new items. So, you buy into the system once (or not at all for some slots, if you started with 61+ epics in them) and from then on you can pay full whack for your dream item, or you can wait your turn and pay upgrades.

What the system lacks, that other guilds may need:

- incentive DKP for wipe nights (could give it out and zero-sum it from non-attendees)
- a more structured way of calculating whether iLevels are well-spent

I've heard that a number of times Squatting Cow and it makes sense on a basic level. This thread assumes that you've already got a guild of people with common interests and you're looking for a looting system that will not be a source of drama.

Since we can't affect how loot gets distributed, I'd ask we refrain from raid instance design commentary, at least in this thread.

I have looked through all the system and zero-sum has it's advantages, but it also has it's issues. My system of preference currently is a
- Fixed Price
- Upgrade System
- DKP per hour per instance
- Price based off of item lvl and usefulness
- Resistance items that are only useful for progression loot council

Reason I prefer this over zero-sum is for the entire reason of the amount you earn is constant and is not based off of what you killed. I don't think the entire guild should be penalized for a shitty night of runs. Individual people should be penalized or guildless.

DKP systems need to have three simple goals-

People aren't passing on upgrades.
People feel that they will be able to obtain any item eventually.
There is no permenant gap between players based on when they joined the system.


The rest of it is in the details on how you want to force the guild's loot to match a desired outcome. If items get preferenced to classes, casual vs non-casual, how to handle class or token based loot, etc.

Last I checked WoW Wiki had a good review of various DKP systems.

Class driven loot council for set items

Let's face it, you probably know exactly what the other members of your class are wearing, and what an upgrade means for them -- set bonus, etc.
Now if Blizz follows the current AQ/Naxx policy of one armor drop affecting multiple classes into the expansion, it is up to members of the larger class to allocate its distribution. For example, in Naxx the tier drop falls along the lines of rogue/warrior. Tanking > all at least at the start. So the rogues and warriors (probably the class leaders) come to some understanding that the first 2 drops go to the MT/OT, then a 1 to 1 distribution from then on based on internal class need. In other words, in week 4 a set piece drops that is designated for the rogues. They then use w/e system they wish to distribute the item (rolling, need, attendance, upgrade, or even dkp). Meanwhile, the rogues get the first dps capes/trinkets as a way of balancing the MT/OT getting each new piece of set armor.

I strongly feel that the classes can best police themselves in regards to the current set armor system...

Which brings us to the next point....how to deal with non-set items, in particular weapons. Based on non-scientific data, the second biggest cause of drama/guild breakup would be weapon distribution (the first being online emo relationships).

My feeling is that once a method of item distribution has begun within members of the larger class (healing/magic dps/melee dps), that they can once again agree as to which item should go where it best serves guild progression (or where it is simply a way of saying thanks to the proc war i.e. a big nasty weapon). The only problem falls on the poor hybrids or those poor holy priests that just want to dps a little.

I think class loot councils are the way to go (and by class I mean both the small classes (war/rog/sha) as well as the larger classes (healing/magic dps/melee dps), as this provides the largest amount of flexibility within a guild. One class is free to use upgrade as its criteria for rewarding, while the next can be sticklers and use something like dkp.
Unfortunately, I feel that dkp in w/e fashion a guild utilizes it will remain as a necessary evil into the expansion.

What's the deal with zero-sum? It causes a lot of problems on wipe-learning fights, people won't show up. Especially on Gothik, who doesn't even drop good stuff, so for the remote chance you'd succeed tonight, you'd STILL Get far less points than on your Thursday farm raid clearing Abom and Spider wing.

The reason this is pissing people off is because MC is below BWL. Multiple instances at the same level, something WoW does not have at this point, can certainly split sets across them.

The thing I see with my guild currently is that DKP doesn't work when certain upgrades must be given to certain classes in order to progress (6x4 T3 warriors for 4H)
the situation in my guild is so bad with DKP right now that I'm given the points for statistical reason only and I can maybe actually bid on 20% of the items that drop for me. The rest is either min - the rogues pass, or not allowed to because the rogues have priority for passing for all the T3.

I'd much rather have no DKP system at this point.

That sounds so complicated, officer decision sounds a lot better to me.

I completly agree, and our DKP System worked perfectly in that way until we killed Loatheb.
Low min bids ensure mediocre items going away
free bidding ensures that new players with high attendance can quickly get their hands on good items, just not the best of the best stuff (which makes sense to me)
As for your second point, that actually depends on how often something drops =)
If you know you'll probably get the second or third Gressil, you know you'll never get it if KT always coughs up something else.

That is not what he said. He said "when they joined", not how much they actually play. So are you saying that someone who joined a guild in June should always be behind the core members that were there when the guild was founded?

Decent reference:

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...33001&pageNo=1

How do you handle new recruits then?

First example...

A guild is in BWL working on Nefarian. Almost everyone is in full Tier 1 and has a weapon or two from MC with 2-4 pieces of Tier 2. A new rogue joins the guild and picks up all their Tier 1 out of MC in a month and helps out in BWL when possible. They also grab a weapon or two.

The guild moves on to AQ40/BWL. Now, does the new member have to wait until all the rogues get their Tier 2 before picking it up, then the same with 2.5, suffering a permenant gear gap?

Second example...

A guild just finished AQ40 and is about to enter Naxx. They recruit someone in full BWL/AQ40 gear. How long is it going to take for that member to get Tier 3? At the same rate as the guy who has been with the guild since MC, or do they have to wait for the core to get all their stuff before they start getting the leftovers?

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The main thing about my second point is that various classes are often considered second-tier for gear. Something like ToEP for a Priest or Core Hound's Tooth for a Hunter (for a guild working on MC). Those classes need to feel that they can obtain that gear at some point within a reasonable time frame.

Hmm at the risk of faling foul of the "don't talk about how we do it rule*

The weakness of zero sum is that you don't get anything for wiping. So we combined took the combined DKP of a week or mores raiding and spread it out in terms of hours raided between everyone.

So you get the same DKP for 4 hours farming bosses as for 4 hours wiping on a new one, which I think is an improvement. And you still get to keep the zero sum (which is really important, inflation is a killer).

I have never been a fan of loot councils and so on, the idea of a loot system is to avoid drama not create it. Unless you have a bunch of the most amazing levelheded lets progress and not worry about gear people (which I have yet to see) it has to be a mess waiting to happen. Kudos if you can get it to work it is the best system I think if you can get someone really really impartial to give the items out, and people accept the decision. I could not see it working in our guild though. We ahve got a lot of nice people, but I think that would strain it too far.

The reference linked above I had read before and is amazing.

Why can't zero sum get anything for wiping? It's easy to give bonus to everyone in the raid, and take the requisite amount from everyone on the system. E.g. 100 people on system, 25 people in raid. 4 bonus DKP for wiping for 25 people = 100 DKP. Everyone on system loses 1 DKP, the people on the raid gain 4 DKP. So, compared to the zero mark, 25 people go up by 3, and 75 people down by 1. It's still zero sum, the people on the raid still got the right amount ahead of others in the system, and as an added benefit 75 people skipping the wipe raid actually took a tiny hit to their DKP compared to future recruits.

Zero sum means simply this: the total DKP of everyone on the system is zero.
It does not mean that DKP can only be moved around within the system as a result of items with a DKP cost being won.

Better fix: get rid of sets that require 100% of the set to get all set bonuses.

5 piece sets with 2/4 bonuses. 7 piece sets with 3/5 bonuses. Etc.

I'm more interested in how you deal fairly with someone entering with PvP epics; I think the method proposed for dealing with upgrades for a player entering the system with existing loot from another guild wherein you either treat their ginvite as a raid and their items as the drops, with all of them being bought by that player, or simply force them to pay full DKP on their first buy in any given slot, is going to be the way to go.

So did people with excused/longterm absences. While you don't want the people skipping the wipe raid to benefit from doing so, neither do you want to penalize people who didn't come because they couldn't.

Better methods include short-term inflationary DKP (give people points for learning attempts, points will begin to decay after first kill, points give them temporary priority but no long term gear advantage) or distributed DKP (all DKP earned via drops in a given week is pooled up and distributed out to the different raids, including learning raids).

Personally the one facet of our DKP system that I am in total love with is the "forward flowing DKP" idea.

i.e. I buy Brutality Blade for 200 DKP. Everyone in that raid gets 5 DKP, I lose 195. 3 months later I buy the Sword of a Thousand Truths for 400 DKP. Everyone in that raid gets 10 DKP, I lose 190. The original Brutality Blade gets set to 0 DKP, so anyone who was in that raid and NOT in the current one is losing DKP.

This means that DKP is always flowing forward. Our end bosses are always worth a ton of DKP (C'Thun this week was ~28 -- in my old guild with hard upgrades it would have been more like 10), and people who leave for a while will see their DKP slowly decay over time as other people upgrade their stuff. This also means that new recruits see their DKP accumulate at a nice rate -- in fact, they will generate DKP faster than older people, although of course usually they are buying a decent amount of stuff too. But this still keeps the upgrade pricing in effect for the buyer.

That's an interesting idea Snowy. I'll have to model it when I've slept some.

A few solutions, first off I believe they should be behind the person who has put more time into the guild. In no way shape or form should they out gear them.
Solution we scale dkp per hour per instance. MC 1dkp per hour. BWL/AQ 1.5dkp per hr. And he would most def not have to wait for all rogues, as they get say half there set he will be able to grab a few pieces. Unless they have been there forever and have say 10times his dkp then ya they will get every piece they need.


You give people DKP as they come into the system based off of there gear. For example if someone comes in with full tier 2 we may give them gear cost *.75 to start with, meaning they start in our system a little below the dkp of people in similar gear.

I entirly think it's unfair for someone to come into the guild and be on a equal lvl or anywhere near a equal lvl with someone who has been there forever. I do agree that people who have worked on there gear and come into the guild geared should be rewarded for that and actually gain because of that. Unlike those who come in with substandard gear.

First time poster, long time listener.
I actually really like the concept of Snowy's DKP system, but I'm curious as to how different things are handled. Obviously, Stormrage is an upgrade over Cenarian, for the same raid healing purposes. But how do you handle PVP upgrades, like when a shaman takes a DFT?
I've been kicking around an idea of using some sort of zero-sum DKP system in which all raids are wiped from the history after a given amount of time... say, 2 months. At this point, you could award DKP for attendence to new content without too much fear of inflation, and new members would be on the same level in shorter order. But I'm also afraid that the system could be abused. Would people taking 2month breaks to wipe their DKP become a common problem? What else might come up, and be a problem?