As long as they were allowed to take the first HSes and assuming evenly-distributed healing, they will continue to take HSes even with zero threat generation on their part.
This isn't true. At least not anymore. I used to believe it was the case also. Then one night we didn't have enough paladins so we skipped salvation. Suddenly HS was all over the place. Took a while to figure out what was going on.
I am not sure if somethign was changed at some point, but I swear we also had our tanks do nothing at all and they were able to keep being HSed. But back then everything about Patchwerk was amazingly confused.
Personally I don't think hateful adds threat at all. It just gives your tank an assload of rage to work with, and generate threat with. So in a round-about way it does increase threat, but only by giving the warrior rage to build threat with. Other than that, the 2-4 on threat primer seems to be correct.
This is patently false and can be easily tested.
Get your primary HS OTs to do nothing at all with the rage they get from HS.
As long as they were allowed to take the first HSes and assuming evenly-distributed healing, they will continue to take HSes even with zero threat generation on their part.
The only OT who is in danger of falling off the list is the tertiary HS OT who only takes very infrequent HSes and will stop taking any at all if his threat generation falls behind melee dps threat.
I'm sorry but this isn't accurate at all.
Doing nothing as even OT1 will have you fall off the list within 30-40 seconds. Even if you are getting creamed by HS, if anything its strong evidence contrary to your own point.
It has been like this since day 1. And I've certainly posted to such a fact nearly 2 months ago.
There is an aggro threshold, its a binary check... you're off the list if you fall below it, and you can't reaquire it instantly.
Personally I don't think hateful adds threat at all. It just gives your tank an assload of rage to work with, and generate threat with. So in a round-about way it does increase threat, but only by giving the warrior rage to build threat with. Other than that, the 2-4 on threat primer seems to be correct.
This is patently false and can be easily tested.
Get your primary HS OTs to do nothing at all with the rage they get from HS.
As long as they were allowed to take the first HSes and assuming evenly-distributed healing, they will continue to take HSes even with zero threat generation on their part.
The only OT who is in danger of falling off the list is the tertiary HS OT who only takes very infrequent HSes and will stop taking any at all if his threat generation falls behind melee dps threat.
I'm sorry but this isn't accurate at all.
Doing nothing as even OT1 will have you fall off the list within 30-40 seconds. Even if you are getting creamed by HS, if anything its strong evidence contrary to your own point.
It has been like this since day 1. And I've certainly posted to such a fact nearly 2 months ago.
There is an aggro threshold, its a binary check... you're off the list if you fall below it, and you can't reaquire it instantly.
On our last kill (well actually the try before the last kill) our MT suddenly started eating Hateful Strikes.
It was about 2 minutes into the fight, everything was running smoothly.
Nothing changed, noone had died, no buffs had run out, no warlock and their imp disconnected, nothing. He just changed target, the main tank now eating melee AND hatefil strikes.
And I have no f*cking clue why.
On our last kill (well actually the try before the last kill) our MT suddenly started eating Hateful Strikes.
It was about 2 minutes into the fight, everything was running smoothly.
Nothing changed, noone had died, no buffs had run out, no warlock and their imp disconnected, nothing. He just changed target, the main tank now eating melee AND hatefil strikes.
And I have no f*cking clue why.
Like I mentioned in the Patchwerk DPS thread, I boxed my guild's MT2 (and OT2 on Patch) this week on Patchwerk.
DPS went all-out once the first HS landed on OT3, and my only offensive actions for the fight were autoattack (with a Blessed Qiraji War Hammer) and stoneshield pots.
I took HSes for the entire fight, with OT3 (our tertiary OT with only 1 healer) taking the occasional HS which slipped through.
Unless:
1) HS adds threat
2) the ~110 autoattack dps was sufficient to stay (at worst) as #4 on the threat list, ahead of melee dps
3) stoneshield pots generate inordinate threat
4) there is infact a fixed HS list (which is easily disproven by the fact that melee dps can easily displace OT3 and take HSes if he does not take enough HSes/generate enough threat)
otherwise the top melee dps would have started taking occasional HSes, OT3 would have started taking the bulk of the HSes, and the original OT2 would have stopped taking HSes at all, the moment melee dps aggro outstripped the threat from ~110dps autoattack (+defensive stance, -BoS)
It's really not that difficult to test; simply have your primary HS OTs not build threat on your next kills, and you will see that nothing changes.
As long as they were allowed to take the first HSes and assuming evenly-distributed healing, they will continue to take HSes even with zero threat generation on their part.
This isn't true. At least not anymore. I used to believe it was the case also. Then one night we didn't have enough paladins so we skipped salvation. Suddenly HS was all over the place. Took a while to figure out what was going on.
I am not sure if somethign was changed at some point, but I swear we also had our tanks do nothing at all and they were able to keep being HSed. But back then everything about Patchwerk was amazingly confused.
HS, much like my favorite class warriors, is a positive feedback loop, which is why many guilds (including mine) wait for the first few HSes to land before starting melee dps.
With sufficient initial burst, it's not inconceivable that melee dps (especially without BoS) can outaggro the initial threat generation of an OT who's not taking damage.
Once that happens, the OT falls off the HS list, loses the threat from HS, the threat generation from the rage courtesy of HS, and of course it all goes to hell in a handbasket.
As long as you're careful in this initial phase (which as far as I can tell, takes exactly 1 HS as alliance with BoS), I've went all-out and not displaced an autoattacking OT who's taking HSes on the HS list.
Originally Posted by Quigon
Originally Posted by deric
Originally Posted by xarg
Personally I don't think hateful adds threat at all. It just gives your tank an assload of rage to work with, and generate threat with. So in a round-about way it does increase threat, but only by giving the warrior rage to build threat with. Other than that, the 2-4 on threat primer seems to be correct.
This is patently false and can be easily tested.
Get your primary HS OTs to do nothing at all with the rage they get from HS.
As long as they were allowed to take the first HSes and assuming evenly-distributed healing, they will continue to take HSes even with zero threat generation on their part.
The only OT who is in danger of falling off the list is the tertiary HS OT who only takes very infrequent HSes and will stop taking any at all if his threat generation falls behind melee dps threat.
I'm sorry but this isn't accurate at all.
Doing nothing as even OT1 will have you fall off the list within 30-40 seconds. Even if you are getting creamed by HS, if anything its strong evidence contrary to your own point.
It has been like this since day 1. And I've certainly posted to such a fact nearly 2 months ago.
There is an aggro threshold, its a binary check... you're off the list if you fall below it, and you can't reaquire it instantly.
I did nothing (other than autoattack) as OT2 and stayed on the list.
Try it before you reject it.
There is obviously an aggro threshold, my point is that HS alone (at least for the primary OTs) keeps you above that, even with minimal threat generation (I'd be glad to turn off even autoattack and find out)
I'd be glad to turn off even autoattack and find out
I'd be interested to hear your results. A few weeks back, our raid leader -- primary OT -- unselected Patchwerk to try and find a healer that wasn't landing heals on another OT. I would say he was off Patchwerk no more than 15sec, and he was no longer taking HS (fairly obvious when your OT2 dies with OT1 at full health).
It's uncertain whether Patchwerk also checks for his target's target, but to be safe, our primary OT no longer handles tide rotations.
I'd be glad to turn off even autoattack and find out
I'd be interested to hear your results. A few weeks back, our raid leader -- primary OT -- unselected Patchwerk to try and find a healer that wasn't landing heals on another OT. I would say he was off Patchwerk no more than 15sec, and he was no longer taking HS (fairly obvious when your OT2 dies with OT1 at full health).
It's uncertain whether Patchwerk also checks for his target's target, but to be safe, our primary OT no longer handles tide rotations.
I will if I get a chance, it'll shed some light into whether HS is a flat +threat, or if Patch is simply amplifying OT threat like Arawethion suspects, which would also explain what you saw.
How did your OT2 die with OT1 at full health though, did you have all your melee dip in the slime beforehand?
Even if OT1 had fallen off the HS list, Patch -should- have HS'd the #3/#4 (on threat) melee dps, depending on their hp, assuming they have more hp than your HS'd OT2.
Considering that most raid-buffed melee dps should sit at ~5.5k hp, it'd be pretty bad luck with partial heals for your OT2 to have more hp than the rest of the melee dps, but not enough to survive a HS.
I'd be glad to turn off even autoattack and find out
I'd be interested to hear your results. A few weeks back, our raid leader -- primary OT -- unselected Patchwerk to try and find a healer that wasn't landing heals on another OT. I would say he was off Patchwerk no more than 15sec, and he was no longer taking HS (fairly obvious when your OT2 dies with OT1 at full health).
It's uncertain whether Patchwerk also checks for his target's target, but to be safe, our primary OT no longer handles tide rotations.
I will if I get a chance, it'll shed some light into whether HS is a flat +threat, or if Patch is simply amplifying OT threat like Arawethion suspects, which would also explains what you saw.
How did your OT2 die with OT1 at full health though, did you have all your melee dip in the slime beforehand?
Even if OT1 had fallen off the HS list, Patch -should- have HS'd the #3/#4 (on threat) melee dps, depending on their hp, assuming they have more hp than your HS'd OT2.
Considering that most raid-buffed melee dps should sit at ~5.5k hp, it'd be pretty bad luck with partial heals for your OT2 to have more hp than the rest of the melee dps, but not enough to survive a HS.
Melee don't dip until 20-15%. The issue was the healer (Offline) not healing was on OT2; OT2 can sit at ~7-8k with a healer down, which is easily a death for Horde with no 25%AC proc.
I should note too, OT1 uses Thunderfury and we were approximately 2min in to the encounter. One would assume OT1 would have built substantial threat considering Thunderfury and highest rage used of the OTs, after taking most HSes and having more revenge usability from avoidance. Yet, OT1 still fell off.
I did try it Deric, as have about 6 other posters here... the HS requires additional threat (if you're in an alliance guild you may need to try without BoS as Broda from conquest mentioned above)... the act of being hit alone is not sufficient.
You can generate enough threat with rage alone to stay on the HS threshold the 2nd half of the fight if you do well for the first half, that doesn't mean its the HS giving you threat. THe threshold is just relatively minute.
As for the people with MT and OT switching, this has also been discussed countless times. The MT is on the HS list - the moment an OT passes him in regular threat, he becomes the MT, and the MT is now and HS tank.
If HS hits gave you aggro you would expect to see this more often - but the MT swap follows normal aggro rules precisely.
You can generate enough threat with rage alone to stay on the HS threshold the 2nd half of the fight if you do well for the first half, that doesn't mean its the HS giving you threat. THe threshold is just relatively minute.
Not sure what you mean by this; correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know, gaining rage from damage taken (and not bloodrage, a rage pot etc) does not generate threat, so I don't understand how any threat is generated "with rage alone"
As for the people with MT and OT switching, this has also been discussed countless times. The MT is on the HS list - the moment an OT passes him in regular threat, he becomes the MT, and the MT is now and HS tank.
If HS hits gave you aggro you would expect to see this more often - but the MT swap follows normal aggro rules precisely.
What do you mean by "normal aggro rules"?
It's obvious that the MT receives some amount of bonus threat, over and above his own threat generation, based on the fact that it is impossible for both melee and ranged dps to pull aggro (regardless of damage done, and the 110%/130% threat thresholds, apart from that one obscene fire mage in that video) and become the "MT".
The only people who can swap to become the MT are HS-eating OTs.
Doesn't this very specific list of possible MTs make it pretty clear that the threat mechanics in this fight are anything but normal?
Look at KTM, note that Draega is a DPS Warrior, and loot at Erestor's HP. There is really no question that there is an artificial threat mechanic at play here.
if that is the case, totally based on HP. Our first attempt we kiled him, we werent positive and our warriors just autoattacked.
Threat means zil.
This is patently false. I've seen DPS Warriors with less HP start getting nuked 3-4 minutes into the fight, with OT3 topped off. Rogues quickly followed suit. OT3 clearly fell off "The List", and it most definitely was a factor of threat in some way. No one eating HS came anywhere close to their HP.
No one knows exactly how HS mechanics work, you just have to play with the encounter a bit and find what works for you. For us, we just have OT3 use rage potions instead of stoneshield, since he does not get hit very often. This seems sufficient rage to stay "primed". YMMV.
I don't recommend reactive healing. I believe we did some math and found what our healers real mana pool was for a 6 minute duration (counting regen, consumeables, etc). Divided 6min by the casttime of the spell they would primarily be using (slow, big heals), and divided that into their total mana pool. This gives you the mana cost of a spell they can cast non-stop for 6 minutes without going out of mana, no cancelling, no nothing. Open spellbook, find which rank matches it best. The only reactive healing that's safe here is upgrading 1rank if their tank seems to be taking more damage than expected.
Once you get your healers set up with their "I can spam this mindlessly the whole fight" spell, it's just a matter of stacking the right number of them on each tank. I believe we have around 1500 HPS on the main tank, 3500 HPS on OT1, 1500 HPS on OT2, and just a spot healer for OT3, who tosses HoT's on other tanks during slow periods. It's really hard to fuck this up, it's so simple. Of course people will anyway, but just sayin.
This strategy will probably fail miserably for you though. It seems everyone does it a little different, tailored to what works best for them. I will tell you one thing we did that really helped learn this fight: Had a healing+tank only raid, and just had DPS log out, until tanks lived until the healers went OOM. This gives you a lot more total attempts by cutting in half the people you need to rez each wipe. DPS has nothing to learn on this fight, it's all the healers, and to a lesser degree tanks. You probably need to retain a Warlock for blood pact, and maybe a mage for amp magic. Also, if you plan on using CoR for this fight, have your warlock keep it up during your dry runs, or you may misjudge the healing necessary when it's actually on.
Threat plays a huge part into this fight. I cant count how many times weve had OT3 die in our practice attempts a while back and watch DPS get the crap whacked out of them with HS if OT1 and OT2 werent healed fast enough. We even had DPS initially dip into the slime to help mitigate this somewhat when we were having problems with OT3 even taking a HS to begin with. Threat most definitely plays a part in this.
As for the artificial threat mechanic im still not entirely sure it exists but your picture Hamlet does provide some proof that it may indeed exist. The question is though did your DPS warrior at anytime he was that high on the threat list and above the HP take a HS or did it just completely ignored him as if he wasnt "primed"?
10/09/06, 3:21 AM
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