It works like VE, any shadow spell damage increases the amount healed/mana regened. So you're not just gaining a % of mana back from VT, but also from any other shadow spell you cast. (Mindflay, SW:P, mindblast, etc)
At least it seems like that to me, 12 mp/5 seems really low for your entire array of shadow spells.
Okay, I must be missing something here. The OP says that the end talent is a DoT that returns a percentage of mana to the party, and people are talking about a shadow priest doing 800 DPS somehow returning a percentage of all of that DPS being converted to mana?
If you look at it like the OP suggests it works, it's a DoT that does maybe 1500 damage over 30 seconds, and you're looking at a much more reasonable 12.5 mp5 returned to the group. There's no way in hell that anything is ever going to consistently return 200 mp5 to the group for the duration of a fight.
You missed that all shadow damage done during the DoT's (VT) duration is returned in mana. 800 * 0.05 * 5 = 200 mp5
Okay, I must be missing something here. The OP says that the end talent is a DoT that returns a percentage of mana to the party, and people are talking about a shadow priest doing 800 DPS somehow returning a percentage of all of that DPS being converted to mana?
If you look at it like the OP suggests it works, it's a DoT that does maybe 1500 damage over 30 seconds, and you're looking at a much more reasonable 12.5 mp5 returned to the group. There's no way in hell that anything is ever going to consistently return 200 mp5 to the group for the duration of a fight.
Anyhow, i think a group of 2 mages, 1 lock, 1 resto shaman (yes, resto for mana tide & spelldmg totem, but he heals basicly, just a group totem-dropper) and a shadow priest will be a rather incdredible dps group.
You want that Shaman to be Elemental since he/she will contribute greatly to the DPS of the group, mana tide is not needed and he/she can chain-heal a few times to keep everyone up as well as a resto shammy and provide +3% crit.
Perhaps yeah. I think mana tide totem would increase the damage of the group more than 3% crit especially when the shadowpriests reclying it and all, atleast for longer encounters.
Will be a case if wether the raid has an elemental shammy or not i guess :-)
The Shadow priest keeps the group up with VE really. Resto shaman is for healing other groups and do an occational healing wave on a party member if he for some reason drops low.
Okay, I must be missing something here. The OP says that the end talent is a DoT that returns a percentage of mana to the party, and people are talking about a shadow priest doing 800 DPS somehow returning a percentage of all of that DPS being converted to mana?
If you look at it like the OP suggests it works, it's a DoT that does maybe 1500 damage over 30 seconds, and you're looking at a much more reasonable 12.5 mp5 returned to the group. There's no way in hell that anything is ever going to consistently return 200 mp5 to the group for the duration of a fight.
775 + 690 = 1465 base dmg. Add in shadowform, it becomes 1684. Add in Darkness, 1852. Add in CoS - 2037. Add in Misery - 2138.
That's 427 per tick, or 142 dps for that particular dot. That's 4.5dpm base, without 5% dmg coming back. You get 106 mana back, so the effective cost of that spell is 369mana, making it's dpm 5.08dpm. That's assuming my current gear, raid buffs, and misery.
So 2138 total dmg, 5.08dpm, 5% dmg during the 15s duration to my group, 142dps dot. Any questions?
That dot alone + mindflay rank 7 with my current gear is 669 dps. That doesnt include ~150 dps from pain,w hich brings me to 819 dps. That doesn't include SW:D and mindblast ranked down being mixed in.
Assuming I don't even use mindblast or SW:D (insanely unlikely), that's 204mana/5 to each group member, while doing significant dps. That's also 1228hp every 5 seconds to each party member.
Obviously, my gear will get far better. Results will be far better. How can you *not* use a shadow priest is my question?
Okay, I must be missing something here. The OP says that the end talent is a DoT that returns a percentage of mana to the party, and people are talking about a shadow priest doing 800 DPS somehow returning a percentage of all of that DPS being converted to mana?
If you look at it like the OP suggests it works, it's a DoT that does maybe 1500 damage over 30 seconds, and you're looking at a much more reasonable 12.5 mp5 returned to the group. There's no way in hell that anything is ever going to consistently return 200 mp5 to the group for the duration of a fight.
775 + 690 = 1465 base dmg. Add in shadowform, it becomes 1684. Add in Darkness, 1852. Add in CoS - 2037. Add in Misery - 2138.
That's 427 per tick, or 142 dps for that particular dot. That's 4.5dpm base, without 5% dmg coming back. You get 106 mana back, so the effective cost of that spell is 369mana, making it's dpm 5.08dpm. That's assuming my current gear, raid buffs, and misery.
So 2138 total dmg, 5.08dpm, 5% dmg during the 15s duration to my group, 142dps dot. Any questions?
That dot alone + mindflay rank 7 with my current gear is 669 dps. That doesnt include ~150 dps from pain,w hich brings me to 819 dps. That doesn't include SW:D and mindblast ranked down being mixed in.
Assuming I don't even use mindblast or SW:D (insanely unlikely), that's 204mana/5 to each group member, while doing significant dps. That's also 1228hp every 5 seconds to each party member.
Obviously, my gear will get far better. Results will be far better. How can you *not* use a shadow priest is my question?
You gotta substract the % of time doing Mind Flay lost by casting VT every 15 seconds, same with 24 secs if you add SW:P.
Okay, I must be missing something here. The OP says that the end talent is a DoT that returns a percentage of mana to the party, and people are talking about a shadow priest doing 800 DPS somehow returning a percentage of all of that DPS being converted to mana?
If you look at it like the OP suggests it works, it's a DoT that does maybe 1500 damage over 30 seconds, and you're looking at a much more reasonable 12.5 mp5 returned to the group. There's no way in hell that anything is ever going to consistently return 200 mp5 to the group for the duration of a fight.
775 + 690 = 1465 base dmg. Add in shadowform, it becomes 1684. Add in Darkness, 1852. Add in CoS - 2037. Add in Misery - 2138.
That's 427 per tick, or 142 dps for that particular dot. That's 4.5dpm base, without 5% dmg coming back. You get 106 mana back, so the effective cost of that spell is 369mana, making it's dpm 5.08dpm. That's assuming my current gear, raid buffs, and misery.
So 2138 total dmg, 5.08dpm, 5% dmg during the 15s duration to my group, 142dps dot. Any questions?
That dot alone + mindflay rank 7 with my current gear is 669 dps. That doesnt include ~150 dps from pain,w hich brings me to 819 dps. That doesn't include SW:D and mindblast ranked down being mixed in.
Assuming I don't even use mindblast or SW:D (insanely unlikely), that's 204mana/5 to each group member, while doing significant dps. That's also 1228hp every 5 seconds to each party member.
Obviously, my gear will get far better. Results will be far better. How can you *not* use a shadow priest is my question?
You gotta substract the % of time doing Mind Flay lost by casting VT every 15 seconds, same with 24 secs if you add SW:P.
Okay, I must be missing something here. The OP says that the end talent is a DoT that returns a percentage of mana to the party, and people are talking about a shadow priest doing 800 DPS somehow returning a percentage of all of that DPS being converted to mana?
If you look at it like the OP suggests it works, it's a DoT that does maybe 1500 damage over 30 seconds, and you're looking at a much more reasonable 12.5 mp5 returned to the group. There's no way in hell that anything is ever going to consistently return 200 mp5 to the group for the duration of a fight.
775 + 690 = 1465 base dmg. Add in shadowform, it becomes 1684. Add in Darkness, 1852. Add in CoS - 2037. Add in Misery - 2138.
That's 427 per tick, or 142 dps for that particular dot. That's 4.5dpm base, without 5% dmg coming back. You get 106 mana back, so the effective cost of that spell is 369mana, making it's dpm 5.08dpm. That's assuming my current gear, raid buffs, and misery.
So 2138 total dmg, 5.08dpm, 5% dmg during the 15s duration to my group, 142dps dot. Any questions?
That dot alone + mindflay rank 7 with my current gear is 669 dps. That doesnt include ~150 dps from pain,w hich brings me to 819 dps. That doesn't include SW:D and mindblast ranked down being mixed in.
Assuming I don't even use mindblast or SW:D (insanely unlikely), that's 204mana/5 to each group member, while doing significant dps. That's also 1228hp every 5 seconds to each party member.
Obviously, my gear will get far better. Results will be far better. How can you *not* use a shadow priest is my question?
You're saying damage = (base dmg) * 1.15 * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.05 = (base dmg) * 1.46. Pretty sure percentage modifiers don't stack this way. The correct formula should be (base dmg) *(1+(0.15+0.1+0.1+0.5) = (base dmg) * 1.4. With the initial base damage that you provided, therefore, the final damage after modifiers would be 2051. However, you seem to have forgotten shadow weaving - that brings the modifier up to 1.55, and the final number up to 2270.
Also, the shadow priest will be better off in a caster dps group. The healing group won't need the mana really. As many complaints as there are about priest regen - there's not much of an issue with regen at any major fight in the game atm.
More mana can always be used by healers. Until all druids can endlessly spam max rank regrowth and all priests can spam max rank gheal, we don't have "enough" mana.
You're saying damage = (base dmg) * 1.15 * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.05 = (base dmg) * 1.46. Pretty sure percentage modifiers don't stack this way. The correct formula should be (base dmg) *(1+(0.15+0.1+0.1+0.5) = (base dmg) * 1.4. With the initial base damage that you provided, therefore, the final damage after modifiers would be 2051. However, you seem to have forgotten shadow weaving - that brings the modifier up to 1.55, and the final number up to 2270.
I think its multiplicative, not additive ;)
Seen all the movies where people did sick numbers? Those numbers wouldn't be possible if it wasn't stacking mutliplicative.
An example is the stromstrike movie (^_^) and that warlock 11k crit movie in wsg.
Also, the shadow priest will be better off in a caster dps group. The healing group won't need the mana really. As many complaints as there are about priest regen - there's not much of an issue with regen at any major fight in the game atm.
More mana can always be used by healers. Until all druids can endlessly spam max rank regrowth and all priests can spam max rank gheal, we don't have "enough" mana.
Agree to that. However, assuming fights similar to current ones the shadow priest would end up in DPS groups more than healer groups. But who knows what the expansion will bring (I have a sense for example that Hunters with VT mana regeneration can do some sick dmg given the new talents - would be interesting to run those numbers).
The ability to place the shadowpriest in different groups to provide benefits to different functions (offensive casters or healers) depending on the fight makes the shadowpriest a nice tool in a raid wich wants to be able to adapt between encounters.
Why i also like resto shaman is that it can also be put in different groups for totems. Mana tide/mana spring & spelldmg totem in offensive caster group for dmg heavy required encounters, or mana tide + tranquil air for aggro sensitive encounters aswell as in healing groups with mana tide/mana spring on encounters wich requires heavy healing.
Raid adaptability without the sacrifice of individual performance is the future. Its smart to embrace it ;)
This really makes no sense to me. A vast amount of mana regeneration to everyone in the party? Man, half the raiding priests in the world are going to be whining about wanting to go shadow in the expansion.
Too bad though, as there are only so many spots (^_^).
I consider wanting to change function is the same as wanting to change class really. Its not something oen can demand from ones raids or create drama about rightfully.
To avoid drama, one could make the rules clear, if you wish to change your raid function (in this case from healer to damage dealer) you actually have to make a new application to the guild. Just as one would have to do with changing class.
If one applies to a guild as a healer, one has no grounds to demand being a damage dealer. People wich wants to deal damage should ahve the balls to apply as what they want to be.
I see this really creating drama, unless deciding who gets to be shadow is done by straws or dkp.
Otherwise, who decides which priests are going to take the hit to continue to be mediocre while all their new shadow priests run around with their toys off raid times?
The drama of going from 40-person raids to 25-person raids might be a little bit more than "I want to be a healer DPS!"
---
What's the math on the sustainibility of Shadow damage? I have a feeling most Shadow priests would just be maintaining the two Vampiric spells and Shadow Word: Pain most of the time, as Mind Blast/Mind Flay would be too expensive. I'll have to work it out on a spreadsheet though. And oddly enough, the mana-regen gives the most benefit to off-spec classes like Elemental Shaman and Balance Druid, as those are the most mana-hungry specs around.
If one applies to a guild as a healer, one has no grounds to demand being a damage dealer. People wich wants to deal damage should ahve the balls to apply as what they want to be.
We can realistically expect that many priests are a little miffed that solo farming/PvP as a healing class pretty much sucks, and doesn't improve at all after level 60 (in fact probably gets worse, as they respec out of whatever DPS spec they used for leveling). Most guilds have a few of these. Now, the common theme amonst all of these "off-spec" that Blizzard has improved somewhat in TBC is that you really only need one to get most of the raid-oriented benefit. So supposing that a few of your priests/druids/shamans reapply with a DPS spec, who do you figure out who to allow? You obviously can't choose based on gear, because then it would be somewhat hypocritical of your guild for not giving them the gear previously. If you go based on seniority, then it's just a bit awkward to give the go-ahead for your most senior healers to stop healing. If you let a new guy do it then the older ones get miffed.
I expect much drama!
If one is going to choose from current members, the leadership just has to choose. If the people wheren't happy healing in the first place, why did they apply to the guild as healer?
Just choose the ones wich are best for the job, simple:). One cannot always be a carebear and think about everyone's feelings, cause this has to happen, wether they like it or not. As i said before, a person that applied as a healer has no grounds to demand a damage dealing spot in the raid more than a person can demand a spot in a raid with his alt.
If some of the healers aren't happy about them not being chosen, then they shouldn't have been healing in the first place, and if they aren't happy about it, they can apply to others guilds in hopes of filling the role they want to fill.
Strong leadership and a mature guild where everyone cares about the function they joined to fill is required to have off-specs.
Other bigger, but less structured guilds will probably have some whine issues. The top guilds will most likely not.
The ability to place the shadowpriest in different groups to provide benefits to different functions (offensive casters or healers) depending on the fight makes the shadowpriest a nice tool in a raid wich wants to be able to adapt between encounters.
Yeah and it's fun to speculate who can get the most benefit of having a constant stream of health and mana.
Warlocks are an obvious choice as they can always appreciate having a flow of health and mana. Hunters can definitely use more mana, and the health from vampiric embrace would do a lot to help keep their pets alive (assuming it affects them).
If healers end up with too much mana you can always throw in a nuke between heals (or consecration I guess?)
The drama of going from 40-person raids to 25-person raids might be a little bit more than "I want to be a healer DPS!"
---
What's the math on the sustainibility of Shadow damage? I have a feeling most Shadow priests would just be maintaining the two Vampiric spells and Shadow Word: Pain most of the time, as Mind Blast/Mind Flay would be too expensive. I'll have to work it out on a spreadsheet though. And oddly enough, the mana-regen gives the most benefit to off-spec classes like Elemental Shaman and Balance Druid, as those are the most mana-hungry specs around.
It's already sustainable, currently, without BC talents, through Kel'Thuzad. Expansion spell-ranks, debuff limit, and 31-41 shadow talents are the icing.
And it's not just the DPS. DPS is cheap. Shadowpriest DPS gives unrivaled group healing and now mana regen. And of the off-specs you mentioned, I would argue a shadowpriest is the most synergetic for raid viability
Come 25man raids, there is going to be some interesting conversation. Kudos to Blizzard for having to balance more "classes" into their encounter possibilities.
A Shadow Priest in TBC wouldn't be taking a Healer spot. Or a DPS spot (or a Tank spot). They'd be taking a Utility spot. And they'd be damned good at that role.
A shadow priest would take a mage/lock spot because bringing a pure dpsing shadow priest would probably increase raid dps more than bringing another mage/lock.
People have had serious trouble understanding this concept since the very first talent trees were released. =/ Many raiders are going to be at a serious disadvantage in a few months because of their stubborn idiocy when it comes to letting players play previously sucky off-specs, like Ret Paladin and Elemental or Enhancement Shaman.
Then I just think you're looking at it entirely the wrong way, that there's just a bunch of mages and locks in a raid, and that you introduce a shadow priest into the mix and because (mages and locks - 1) + shadow priest > (mages and locks) that you're going to kick one of those.
Except that you're not in a vacumn where the only classes to consider are mages, locks and a shadow priest, and since you don't know how much healing, dps and tanking each fight is going to require saying that a shadow priest will take a mage or lock spot makes as much sense as saying they'll take a warrior spot or a priest spot.
Right now there is nobody in raids. There are no 25 man raids. People will be creating new raid groups, and in many instances whole new guilds, to deal with the new 25 person limit.
So yes, we ARE in a vaccuum. We are starting from scratch in TBC.
Hm... I can't seem to find the Utility class on my Raid Ninja. How many Utilities should I bringing to my raids now?
Let's at least be honest about this whole debate. Each class is going to have 2-3 raid slots. How many healing spec'd priests will people bring? And which class spot your shadow priest is going to take is part of this whole debate.
If shadow priests are going to be brought as a mana battery, with some dps or potentially healing, which class mostly resembles that role? Are druid innervates better replaced by dps+mana regen of a shadow priest? Can you get away with two priest slots + a shadow priest? If so, which priest gets the 'fun PvP + Soloing spec" and which gets the raid heal bot spec?
These are important questions to ask.
So yes, we ARE in a vaccuum. We are starting from scratch in TBC.
With the exception of every guild which has been raiding since launch. They are decidely not in a vacuum. They have to decide how to restructure their raid team and which classes they are going to bring. Let us not pretend this is going to be drama free, or a purely an emotionless intellectual exercise.
Hm... I can't seem to find the Utility class on my Raid Ninja. How many Utilities should I bringing to my raids now?
Let's at least be honest about this whole debate. Each class is going to have 2-3 raid slots. How many healing spec'd priests will people bring? And which class spot your shadow priest is going to take is part of this whole debate.
If shadow priests are going to be brought as a mana battery, with some dps or potentially healing, which class mostly resembles that role? Are druid innervates better replaced by dps+mana regen of a shadow priest? Can you get away with two priest slots + a shadow priest? If so, which priest gets the 'fun PvP + Soloing spec" and which gets the raid heal bot spec?
These are important questions to ask.
So yes, we ARE in a vaccuum. We are starting from scratch in TBC.
With the exception of every guild which has been raiding since launch. They are decidely not in a vacuum. They have to decide how to restructure their raid team and which classes they are going to bring. Let us not pretend this is going to be drama free, or a purely an emotionless intellectual exercise.
Its best to not think "class spots" but "function spots"
There are 4 functions, Healer, offensive caster, tanker and physical damage dealer.
One should classify into those 4 roles. If one doesn't one will never have a close to optimal raid.
A class tag is just a word, it does not define a function.
Look beyond the words, and see things for their abilitys and benefits, thats how you build the best raid setup in my opinion.
10/09/06, 11:38 AM
Similar Threads
