The new-look BC Shadowpriest - Page 7

Althor · 10/10/06, 12:23 AM

Mind Flay:

(426 + 570*0.45)*1.1*1.1*1.15*1.15 / 3 = 364.05 per tick with 5/5 Weaving

With only 4 Shadowweaving up it's

(426 + 570*0.45)*1.1*1.1*1.12*1.15 / 3 = 354.56 per tick.

I'm betting that you only have 4 Shadow Weavings up.

Mind Blast (using the avg value of 522.5):

(522.5 * 1.1 + 570*1.5/3.5)*1.1*1.15*1.15 = 1191.49 avg hit with 5/5 weaving.

Why am I using 45% as the coefficient for Mind Flay rather than 43%? Because:
1) Blizzard have said it's 45%
2) All of my tests (*with* FRAPS recording) say 45%.

Here's a link to the video I made showing how it works:
http://files.filefront.com/SEARCH/;4.../fileinfo.html

The Jalwell · 10/10/06, 12:30 AM

Okay, now, back to the question I originally had that made me want to do some theorycraft: how do you get rank 4 mindblast doing as much dpm as rank 6 mind flay? Empirical testing on my own gear says that it isn't the case for me for rank 4 (or even 3), and in fact not even close. Plugging into the formulas (the correct ones ><) with +820 shadow, I get closer, but still off by about 15%. Using the formulas, we have:

DPM (MindFlay Rank 6) = [(426+(1.5/3.5)N)*1.15^2*1.10^2]/205
DPM (MindBlast Rank 4) = [197 + (1.5/3.5)N)*1.15^2*1.10]/150 <----figured in Darkness directly into the "base damage"
So, DPM (Blast) > DPM (Flay) =>

(426+(1.5/3.5)N)*1.10/205 < (197+(1.5/3.5)N)/150

(426+(1.5/3.5)N) < (197+(1.5/3.5)N) * 1.24

426 + .43*N < 245 + .5332 N <-Blast DOES gain more DPM than flay

181 < .1N
1810 < N

Not very realistic.

Using Rank 3 Mind Blast, we have

(426+(1.5/3.5)N)*1.10/205 < (134+(1.5/3.5)N)/110

(426+(1.5/3.5)N) < (134+(1.5/3.5)N)*1.69

426+.43*N < 227+.73N
199 < .3N

663 < N. Quite more doable.

However, we still need Rank 3 Mind Blast to do more dps than Rank 6 Mindflay.

(426+(1.5/3.5)N)*1.10 < [(197+(1.5/3.5)N)]* 2

469 + .473N < 394 + .86N

75 < .387N

193 < N. Thus, this condition is redundant.

Well, that was more math than I meant to do, but anyhoo - looks like Rank 3, not rank 4, is the way to go (unless you've got 2k +dmg). If I made (another) mistake, though, please correct me! Also, you do need 663 dmg according to this, which (in my case) means oils/flask, so I can't do a direct test of the second result myself.

Sherriffroot · 10/10/06, 12:40 AM

Originally Posted by Torel

If you have a fight that needs extra healing for 20% of the time, is completely healable by 3 people for the rest of the time, requires high DPS during burst periods, and which has lots of chaotic elements (such as adds that need controlled).... then, a very diverse raid starts to look extremely powerful compared to the traditional healbot/tankbot/dpsbot situation. This hybrid-friendly scenario is seen even now on some fights, but due to the large raid numbers, perception issues, and itemization issues it is fairly rare to see guilds using hybrids extensively.

Currently, it is also easier to simply build a raid composition when everyone is completely focused on one task as opposed to multitasking. The latter puts a lot of responsibility on the place of the hybrid, which can make things more chaotic if they are not performing. However, with a smaller raid size, more dynamic encounters, better talent trees, and comprehensive itemization, the driving force for hybrids could be engineered high enough that they would be seen as a critical component of the raid.

I may be giving blizzard too much credit, but the moves thusfar indicate they are looking to integrate hybrids into overall raid design.

The healbot/tankbot/dpsbot roles will stay, its swapping the classes which have those roles which will create an environment healthy for hybrids - this is what you are saying. The thing is that these encounters exist already, at least in AQ40 and Naxx. Its just a matter of perception, as you pointed out.

BTW your point about multitasking vs focused tasking makes me think: should raids stack they will not develop out of this focused casting role. This will be a disservice to a guild's development. To rehash an old argument, I think the point that PvP develops multitasking skills which are good for raids is not lost here.

Sherriffroot · 10/10/06, 12:50 AM

Originally Posted by Holyman

Originally Posted by Elog

Originally Posted by Holyman

Anyhow, i think a group of 2 mages, 1 lock, 1 resto shaman (yes, resto for mana tide & spelldmg totem, but he heals basicly, just a group totem-dropper) and a shadow priest will be a rather incdredible dps group.

You want that Shaman to be Elemental since he/she will contribute greatly to the DPS of the group, mana tide is not needed and he/she can chain-heal a few times to keep everyone up as well as a resto shammy and provide +3% crit.

Perhaps yeah. I think mana tide totem would increase the damage of the group more than 3% crit especially when the shadowpriests reclying it and all, atleast for longer encounters.

Will be a case if wether the raid has an elemental shammy or not i guess :-)

The Shadow priest keeps the group up with VE really. Resto shaman is for healing other groups and do an occational healing wave on a party member if he for some reason drops low.

And the DPS of an elemental shammy is formidible, providing they have mana. If the group mana regen capabilities of a shadow priest is as good as people are saying it is, you most definitely will want an elemental shaman over a resto shaman.

A resto shammy's selling point is earthen shield more than anything else.

Sherriffroot · 10/10/06, 1:04 AM

Originally Posted by Avair

A class tag is just a word, it does not define a function.

Class is not just a word. It's also a choice that players are locked into, and may have up to two years of investment in. Players are not 'pluggable raiding units' that can be freely moved around with no consequences.

Well designed hybrids are "pluggable raiding units", and the only consequence is a drop in effectiveness to compensate for a degree of flexibility. TBC seems to be increasing the number of hybrid options available. I think that a raid could get away with only a very few "obligatory" specs - mainly tied to buffs that require talent point investment.

I dont think its a stretch to claim that a lot of people hide behind their specs to conform to an accepted standard and gain acceptance or priority in a raid. Id bet that some of the shadow priests in this thread could heal the pants off (in effectiveness) of some of the holy priests out there. Healing is a hell of a lot more than spec and gear, its mostly situational awareness - the same thing can be said about all raiding, really.

Althor · 10/10/06, 1:27 AM

First, Mind Flay gets 45% not 1.5/3.5.

Second, you're only using the base mana which isn't much use in practise.
You need to take into account JoW, BoW, other mana regen buffs, mp5 gear, spirit regen with Meditation and similar things. Why?
Because spells with a lower base mana/second will be effected relatively more by all those than spells with a higher base mana/second. Faster spells will also benefit more from JoW than slower spells.

That said, I've done my own modeling for TBC spells adding in various ranks of Mind Blast into my cycles.
I currently have +636 dmg with 69 mp5 (I can vary it) on gear. Adding in all the new ranks of spells, buffs, pots and enchants and the like and counting Shadowfiend as mp5 (for a fight of infinite length this is what it boils down to if you ignore the damage it does) then I came up with the following cycles (amongst others): (Doesn't include Imp. CoS or Imp. Shadowbolt. Assumes 7% crit rate against a boss mob +3 levels higher than you with "base" boss shadow resist, i.e. 24 (3*8).
Also doesn't include Shaman Totems at all.

1) 1*VE, 2*SW:P Rank 10, 3*Vampiric Touch Rank 1, 6*SW:Death Rank 1, 11*Mind Flay Rank 7.
846.4 DPS sustained forever (or until you run out of pots etc).
Healing for 262.8 health/second per person in the party.
169.5 health/second lost for the Shadow Priest from SW:D (Heal/second is higher than loss/second so it's a net gain for the Priest)
211.6 mp5 for everyone in the party.
Assuming just 1 person's worth of VE healing for threat then that's 472.3 threat/second. Add 63.5 threat/second for every other full use of VE.
This method has the priest *regenning* 23.4 mana/second (so basically means they don't need to use Super Mana Potions to maintain a net 0 mana/second usage).

2) 1*VE, 2*SW:P Rank 10, 3*Vampiric Touch Rank 1, 6*SW:Death Rank 2, 11*Mind Flay Rank 7.
872.3 dps
270.8 heal/second. 195.4 health loss/second from SW:D
218.1 mp5
486.7 threat/second. 65.4 per extra worth of ve healing.
Regenning 16.7 net mana/second. (Can stop using Demonic Runes but would still need Super Mana Potions or could downgrade to Superior Mana Potions and NDBs)

3) 1*VE, 2*SW:P Rank 10, 3*Vampiric Touch Rank 2, 6*SW:Death Rank 2, 11*Mind Flay Rank 7.
890.3 dps
276.4 heal/second. 195.4 health loss/second
222.6 mp5
496.7 threat/sec. 66.8 per extra.
Regenning 13.1 mana/second net

4) 1*VE, 2*SW:P Rank 10, 3*Vampiric Touch Rank 3, 6*SW:Death Rank 2, 11*Mind Flay Rank 7.
895 dps
278 heal/second. 195.4 health loss/second
223.8 mp5
499.4 threat/sec. 67.1 per extra.
Regenning 8.8 mana/second net.

5) 3*VE, 5*SW:P Rank 10, 8*Vampiric Touch 3, 32*Mind Flay 7
812.8 dps
252.4 heal/second. 0 loss.
203.2 mp5
453.5 threat/second. 60.1 per extra.
Regenning 24.8 mana/second.

6) 3*VE, 5*SW:P Rank 10, 8*Vampiric Touch 1, 32*Mind Flay 7
787.2 dps
244.4 heal/second. 0 loss.
196.8 mp5
439 threat/second. 59 per extra.
Regenning *33.8 mana/second*. i.e. Can completely stop using Super Mana Potions, Demonic Runes and Nightfin Soup. And still have 2.2 mana/second spare. Could almost stop using normal Mageblood Potion too. The days of Shadow Priests running oom as an excuse for not using one is over.

Now onto ones with Mind Blast:
7) 2*VE, 5*SW:P Rank 10, 8*VT Rank 3, 11*SW:D Rank 2, 12*Mind Blast Rank 3, 20*Mind Flay Rank 7:
859.7 dps
266.9 heal/second. 147.7 loss/second.
214.9 mp5
518.3 threat/second. 64.5 per extra ve person.
Regenning 14.9 mana/second.

8) 2*VE, 5*SW:P Rank 10, 8*VT Rank 3, 11*SW:D Rank 2, 12*Mind Blast Rank 4, 20*Mind Flay Rank 7:
868.8 dps
269.8 heal/second. 147.7 loss/second.
217.2 mp5
527.8 threat/second. 65.1 per extra.
Regenning 11.9 mana/second.

9) 2*VE, 5*SW:P Rank 10, 8*VT Rank 3, 11*SW:D Rank 2, 12*Mind Blast Rank 7, 20*Mind Flay Rank 7:
898.6 dps
279 heal/second. 147.7 loss/second.
224.7 mp5.
558.8 threat/second. 67.4 per extra.
Regenning 3.6 mana/second.

10) 2*VE, 5*SW:P Rank 10, 8*VT Rank 3, 11*SW:D Rank 2, 12*Mind Blast Rank 8, 20*Mind Flay Rank 7:
911.7 dps
283 heal/second. 147.7 loss/second.
227.9 mp5
572.4 threat/second. 68.3 per extra.
Regenning 0.47 mana/second.

After this point (increasing ranks of Mind Blast, you'll no longer remain at <= 0 mana/second used. Will still be viable for non-infinite length fights of course but I'm just tracking those for now).

And now a varient on 4) but this time replacing SW:D with Mind Blast Rank 6.
11) 1*VE, 2*SW:P Rank 10, 3*Vampiric Touch Rank 3, 6*Mind Blast Rank 6, 11*Mind Flay Rank 7.
916.7 dps
284.6 heal/second. 0 loss/second.
229.2 mp5.
616.3 threat/second. 68.7 threat/second per extra ve.
Regenning 0.97 mana/second.

Conclusions:
While fully buffed up and willing to use consumeables when they come off cooldown a Shadow Priest (in my current gear) could cast forever quite easily doing rather nice DPS, healing and mana regen.

They could go the highest DPS route (cycle 11) but it will also probably generate the most threat and you'll need to be using all consumeables all the time.

They could decide to lose 5 dps by using the more complex cycle in 10 and generate less threat but on the downside the Priest himself will be getting less net personal healing due to the loss from SW:D.

Or they could use cycle 4 with it's still very respectable 895 dps with a lot less theat generation and a little bit of slack in the mana/second usage. Still has the problem with SW:D of course.

Downranking VT will not lower your DPS by that much but will give you more leeway with not using pots.

And of course there's cycle 6 which has a fairly large DPS hit but you can do away with almost all the mana regen consumeables (though you'd still want the +dmg ones).

All of this of course is for TBC, not live.

The Jalwell · 10/10/06, 2:23 AM

Nice work, Althor. My guess on the 354 figure is that I recently got a slight upgrade to my neck slot (3 +dmg) which probably adjusted it the 2-3 points, but I forgot about that. I wasn't too worried about that discrepancy.

In general, downranking increases dpm at the cost of dps; my goal was to find a rank (in my case, when fully buffed, rank3) that has superior dpm AND dps. I never thought of doing that before; I've been using mind blast for burst damage or when needed for range, but I'm now going to start cycling all the time and uprank when burst is needed. You learn something new every day, I guess.

I was pessimistic for a while about shadow in the expansion, but I think (especially with the increase to debuff slots) it could really work.

Althor · 10/10/06, 2:45 AM

Originally Posted by The Jalwell

Nice work, Althor. My guess on the 354 figure is that I recently got a slight upgrade to my neck slot (3 +dmg) which probably adjusted it the 2-3 points, but I forgot about that. I wasn't too worried about that discrepancy.

In general, downranking increases dpm at the cost of dps; my goal was to find a rank (in my case, when fully buffed, rank3) that has superior dpm AND dps. I never thought of doing that before; I've been using mind blast for burst damage or when needed for range, but I'm now going to start cycling all the time and uprank when burst is needed. You learn something new every day, I guess.

I was pessimistic for a while about shadow in the expansion, but I think (especially with the increase to debuff slots) it could really work.

One thing to bear in mind is if Healing spells are having their coefficient from +healing being reduced if they're below level 40 spells then the same might also apply to Damage spells with +dmg.

BTW, did a quick comparison with using Mind Blast in my cycles in Live (as opposed to TBC) and Mind Blast 3 does indeed seem nice if threat isn't an issue.

With my setup I'm looking at:

1) 1*SW:P 8, 8*Mind Flay 6. Doomfinger to regen (I wish but who cares).
552.7 dps for 482 seconds. Sustained 511 dps.
289 threat/second.

2) 1*SW:P 8, 3*Mind Blast 9, 6*Mind Flay 6. Doomfinger to regen.
641.3 dps for 170.1 seconds. Sustained 519.6 dps.
390.9 threat/second.

3) 1*SW:P 8, 3*Mind Blast 4, 6*Mind Flay 6. Doomfinger to regen.
573.8 dps for 434 seconds. Sustained 525.2 dps.
339.2 threat/second

4) 1*SW:P 8, 3*Mind Blast 3, 6*Mind Flay 6. Doomfinger to regen.
563 dps for 629 seconds. Sustained 529 dps.
337.3 threat/second.

So a fight of around 3 minutes you'll be using max rank Blast.
Fights between 3 to 7ish minutes use Mind Blast 4.
Fights longer than 7ish minutes use Mind Blast 3.

Or just use Mind Blast 3 and use fewer mana pots.

Althor · 10/10/06, 2:48 AM

As a followup....

We can see just how much of a DPS increase we're looking at (assuming of course we can still convince the locks to give us Curse of Shadows in the expansion) between TBC and Live using the same gear we're using now (but with upgraded pots and buffs and enchants).

I'm going from a sustained 529 dps (with a stop and start method) to a fully sustained 916 dps. That's a 73% DPS increase.

And the thing is, we don't rely upon multiple people of the same class and spec to be in the raid unlike say Fire Mages. Sure we do benefit greatly from a number of different classes but we don't care much about a raid being stacked.

We benefit from:
Paladins: Imp. BoW, JoW, BoK, BoSalv. (With BoK being the least important)
Warlocks: Curse of Shadows (possibly with Malediction) and Imp. Shadowbolt.
Elemental Shaman for their dmg totem...

not really much else we need.

One Paladin in the raid with BoK. One with Imp. BoW. One to do Salv. Keep JoW up.
One Warlock to give us (and the Hunters, Moonkin Druids and Arcane Mages(lol))!!!) Curse of Shadows. (Not to mention their dots).
And maybe that one Shaman.

Hardest part for the min/maxers might be making a case for CoS to be kept up. But with the Hunter changes Arcane Shot will/might become a larger part of the Hunter's DPS (assuming spell damage bonuses continue to apply of course).

heel · 10/10/06, 2:55 AM

Shadow Reach has been changed to two talent points, ten percent range per point.

Ayr · 10/10/06, 2:56 AM

Originally Posted by Sherriffroot

A raider who perhaps is off-specced and geared a certain way who stays alive to heal/dps/tank from start to finish or wipe is much better than a "perfect" specced guy who is afk, doesnt analyse or research their content prior to a raid.

Except that, you know, a raider who stays alive to heal/dps/tank, who analyses and researches their content prior to a raid, brings consumables and is not afraid to use them, etc. etc. AND has the proper spec for his role is much better than an offspec with the same ammount of skill and dedication.

Please don't assume that all offspecs are godly skilled players and all traditional specs are afk-ers, it's retarded.

krucifix85 · 10/10/06, 3:01 AM

With most of our spells in the shadow tree being insta cast, would you think:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...10251123011551

would be near to the best PvE DPS raid spec going around? Obvious DIRECT DAMAGE increase you can get is swapping the points from Dark Reach into Darkness, but i think the extra range (especially if it works on MFlay now) would be more helpful.

Is that what you would run with Althor?

--
edit:
Or is the fact that Darkness applies AFTER +dmg gear on SWP etc, too big a reason to leave darkness in the cold?

Hmm, i forgot when i originally wrote this, that SWP gets darkness applied after +dmg.... dammit, it just got hard to choose again... :(

I guess it's points out of Shadow Power (crit to MB / SWD) and back into Darkness?

Ayr · 10/10/06, 3:12 AM

I honestly think Shadow Power is a bit overrated. No crit damage bonus for priests means a 7.5% increase in damage coming from Mind Blast and SW:D. However, both of these have cooldowns and they are mana inneficient, so at best we'll see them used as downranked. Which would lead to what, 2% total damage increase from this talent? A bit too low for a 5 point investment.

Great PvP talent though.

Also, the only damage spells affected by Mental Agillity are SW:D and SW:P. Everything else is either channeled or has a cast time.

Althor · 10/10/06, 3:15 AM

Nope.

First, our only instant cast attack spells are SW:P and SW:D (and VE).
Mind Flay is a channeled spell. It doesn't benefit from Mental Agility. Neither of course do Mind Blast or Vampirc Touch.

You've also got 0/3 in Shadow Affinity and only 1/5 in Silent Resolve.

Make no mistake, we will be needing our threat reduction talents in the expansion. "Extra" Mana regen causes threat. It's not clear if the mana regen we'll be giving from VT will count to the Priest or the person receiving it. But if it's the Priest expect a decent chunk of threat generation from that. If we're using Mind Blast in our cycles there's more threat gen. If we're using SW:D we'll be hurting ourselves often and so of course will have health to be healed up with VE which means healing threat generated quite aside from any splash damage our group might be taking.

5/5 Shadow Focus is a must for boss fights until you're hitting like 10% spell hit from gear (and remember that 10% spellhit from gear now, will not be 10% spellhit from gear at level 70) at which point 3/5 is fine.

I'm still not convinced that Shadow Power is worth it though I haven't checked the numbers yet.

Marytrdom and Imp. Shield is a matter of personal preference. Personally I prefer Marytrdom over Imp. PW:S.

I will say that unlike in the current game, Wand Spec loses it's edge (except maybe for solo grinding) and we'll be needing to wand far, far less now as mana becomes much less of a concern for us.

For PvE I'd have 5 in Shadow Focus and 5 in Darkness is worth it.

krucifix85 · 10/10/06, 3:17 AM

Well, i said spells in the shadow tree.
VE, Silence, (Shadowform).

And doesn't it help the channelled? Channelled doesn't equal Insta? :( that sucks. That was basically the assumption i was running under, seeing as flay is the obvious spam choice.