Vant

There is a mod and generally accepted appoarch on loatheb:
Before engage: Shadow potion
After doom 1: Shadow potion
After doom 2: nothing
After doom 3: bandage
After doom 4: Healthstone
After doom 5: Bandage + Shadow potion
After doom 6: Nothing
After doom 7: bandage

I sometimes die before doom 4 or before doom 5. No poison is debuffed. My buff HP is around 4.7-4.9K. I'm a mage.

This happens to a few of our guildies too.

A few of our guildies conclude that the death = we are not doing the right order, but we did do the right order. And the combat log said only doom dmage of 2.55k. Why sometimes we have less than 2.55k HP before the doom as per the above appoarch?

I turn out to survive by using a bit more sta gears, HP regen potion and mana shield. But, I'd like to see if you guys experience this and know any reason for HP < 2.55k before doom. Thanks.

 

Failure

Low rolls on shadow Pots? Not sure really, but that is not the most optimal consumable order, IMO.

 

Judia

Erm.
Why not just do this:
After doom 1: Shadow potion
After doom 2: bandage
After doom 3: Healthstone
After doom 4: Bandage
After doom 5: Shadow potion
After doom 6: Nothing
After doom 7: bandage

Should stop you dying before doom 6.

 

• Arawethion

Bandaging after Doom 7 is probably not fun.

Answers to Moonkin questions:
0) Read the TTT/use the spreadsheet: http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-moonkin_pve_dps/
1) Maintain high DoT uptime. Use WiseEclipse.
2) Nothing beats 2T8.
3) Sometimes you cast many Wraths and no Eclipse procs. Deal with it.

 

Tel

We use

1. nothing - pre emptive SPP absorbs this
2. New SPP and bandage back to full after this
3. nothing - SPP absorbs this
4. Bandage after this
5. Healthstone/Whipper root
6. Bandage and new SPP
7. Nothing, as SPP absorbs this

Would you say thats optimal? Or is there something I've missed?

[edit]
this is intended to leave you at full or almost full HP after doom 7 incase low dps pushes fight into enrage

 

Iskaral

That is what we use as well and the best I can come up with if you add a whipper root at doom 1 (in case of bad luck with the shadow pot)

 

◊ Praetorian

We use this order. Dying before Doom 4 should not be possible. Assuming you only get 1950 absorbs across the board, using the above order:
After 1: -600hp
After 2: -1200hp
After 3: -3750hp, bandage back up to -1750
After 4: -4300hp, healthstone back up to -3100
After 5: -5650hp, bandage back up to -3650
After 6: -4250hp

Now, the above assumes you are the unluckiest person in the world and you get the very low end of a large range (1950-3250) time after time. -5650hp looks like a lot but in practice that pretty much never happens. But it makes 5650hp a good goal, and if you get the ZG buff and the EPL tower buff on the way in, even a mage should be able to hit that hp target without much effort. If not, look into using a Troll's Blood pot, which can help quite a bit. Or just use the alternate order given above.

Personally I like to aim for sub-5 Loatheb kills on a regular basis, and I'd rather only bandage twice if possible, and repotting immediately means you only bandage at 3:10 and 4:10.

 

• Arawethion

We haven't tried the fight with consumables yet, but unless I'm missing something, I strongly prefer using GSPP to absorb Dooms 1, 3, and 7.

Gurg, you said you like to aim for sub-5 kills, and using 16 seconds bandaging rather than 24 makes that more likely. However, it seems the primary goal of utmost importance is make sure as many people as possible survive until 5:25 or even 5:40.

Using GSPP on Dooms 1, 3, and 7 rather than 1, 2, and 6 carries a few advantages:
--Since you're using the Healthstone after Doom 5 rather than Doom 4, you can use a WRT or NDB after Doom 1, eliminating the chance (or rather, the effect) of an unlucky roll on your first potion.
--You can use 3 GSPP's and 3 bandages without trying to squeeze in a bandage between 7 and 8.

As a result of both of those, the lowest HP you can ever reach is -5360 after Doom 6, And the lowest HP you can reach even at doom 8 is -6510. This ensures that nearly everyone will survive until Doom 9. Some people may even survive Doom 9, although your tank will probably be down.

Basically, your way does maximize the chance of a 5-minute kill, yes. But wouldn't the near-disaster that Navaash posted have been averted if you did it the other way?

Answers to Moonkin questions:
0) Read the TTT/use the spreadsheet: http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-moonkin_pve_dps/
1) Maintain high DoT uptime. Use WiseEclipse.
2) Nothing beats 2T8.
3) Sometimes you cast many Wraths and no Eclipse procs. Deal with it.

 

Iskaral

Still, the other order is better if you aren't sure you will get a kill before 5 min. You would then have

After 1: Full health
After 2: -2550 hp, bandage back to -550
After 3: -1150 hp
After 4: -3700 hp, bandage back to -1700
After 5: -4250, healthstone back to -3050
After 6: -5600, bandage up to -3600
After 7: -4200
After 8: -6750

And also the advantage that with a lucky first pot the additional amount absorbed will carry over to all the next dooms. Another advantage is that you take damage earlier and get more use of hp regeneration buffs (only with average or better absorbs of course).

 

• Arawethion

Oh yeah. I'm a pretty low-stat Mage: 3280 HP unbuffed. Then I get:

Fort (700)
Kings (about 210)
Spirit of Zanza (500)
Dirge's (250)
Spirit of Zandalar (maybe about 540--it is applied to buffed Stam, right?)
and Elixir of Fort (120)
Mol'dar's Moxie (540 again? Same as ZG heart?)
Major Troll's Blood, in the 2-minute period between 2:40 and 4:40, will be effectively worth 480 HP.

I'll have over 6000--it shouldn't be a problem.

Answers to Moonkin questions:
0) Read the TTT/use the spreadsheet: http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-moonkin_pve_dps/
1) Maintain high DoT uptime. Use WiseEclipse.
2) Nothing beats 2T8.
3) Sometimes you cast many Wraths and no Eclipse procs. Deal with it.

 

• Arawethion

I just noticed that I was counting a Healthstone as 1440, and you guys were as 1200.

EDIT: Can't the Healthstone be made even bigger with Amplify?

Answers to Moonkin questions:
0) Read the TTT/use the spreadsheet: http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-moonkin_pve_dps/
1) Maintain high DoT uptime. Use WiseEclipse.
2) Nothing beats 2T8.
3) Sometimes you cast many Wraths and no Eclipse procs. Deal with it.

 

snape

No.


Also, without world buffs, we would die at 5:40 every time, with 2-3% left on Loatheb.

With world buffs, he died at 4:48 or similar for the last 3 weeks; the fight shouldn't last 5:40 if you're savvy.

 

◊ Praetorian

You're forgetting the EPL buff which is +5% health. Also, it's probably a waste of Chops for DPS to use them on Loatheb... one of these will give similar effectiveness in a 5min+ fight, and they're dirt cheap: http://www.thottbot.com/?i=10334

Edit:
No. However the spore buff does give everyone's Healthstone a far greater crit chance. You obviously don't want to design a strat that requires healthstone to crit, but in practice, most people's will.

 

• Arawethion

Ahh, nice. Yeah, I doubt I actually would have used them, I was just trying to push the number up.

Also, I forgot Lung Juice, if there's some Mage who's really having an HP problem (if you're not using World buffs, or he's not revered with ZG, or something).


Do you guys have everyone bandage themselves, or use healer-DPS "bandage buddy" scheme?

EDIT: Also, it should be noted that Loatheb is not a "5+ minute fight" for purposes of HP regen. Everyone is at full HP until Doom 2 hits at 2:40. The "danger point" is Doom 5 for you, Doom 6 for us, meaning that HP5 buffs only have 90 or 120 seconds to actually take effect.

Answers to Moonkin questions:
0) Read the TTT/use the spreadsheet: http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-moonkin_pve_dps/
1) Maintain high DoT uptime. Use WiseEclipse.
2) Nothing beats 2T8.
3) Sometimes you cast many Wraths and no Eclipse procs. Deal with it.

 

kais[bo]

lightwell solves.
just get 2 priests to respec, its still the best pve spec just without spi buff. thats 10 charges. 11 ppl being the unluckiest person in the world won't happen in one attempt/kill. i can't recall the exact order, but we use 3 pots and 2 bandages and a HS for low hp guys. i use full priest T2 and we don't world buff, so i have like 4.8k hp with food buff max. i think i had to use lightwell twice in 4 or 5 weeks of loatheb. otherwise it was always enough. with 10 lw charges, you really have no hp problems. and we always kill around the 5 min mark, not much faster.

 

◊ Kalman

The only bandage-buddy we use is one druid bandaging the mage who's keeping the ignite rolling. In our scheme, druids are the odd men out for the spore buff, so their DPS tends to be lowest of any of the healers.

And yes, we use the scheme the OP posted. Pot on engage, absorb, pot/bandage, absorb, bandage, healthstone, pot/bandage, absorb, bandage if you have to but preferably just kill him. We use a Hakkar heart, Ony head (if possible - we've done it without, too), and the EPL 5% buff. Most people use a Spirit of Zanza as well as food buffs.

 

• Playered

How does melee as alliance count for dooms and poison? Ive seen several sources that say (assuming 3x T1 and 2x T3) JoL effectivly heals around the same amount as doom deals damage over the fight.

Now on paper that sounds good, but is it enough to ensure survival without needing to bandage or be as reliant on GSPP as other people?

Is it worth using a GNPP (pre-fight) ontop of a GSPP to absorb the slow poison damage u take too? but i guess by the time the GNPP runs out you will be about 2mins in and as you have no dooms, your better off just letting JoL heal it up by itself anyway.

 

Grombar

I dont know about anyone else but as a rogue I was at near 7k HP fully buffed and was never in danger of dying. My experiance is limited since we've only gone 1 full out run and a few ppl messed up thus causing a 10% wipe but I had no problems keeping my HP topped off or near enough until the tank died and Loatheb turned and smacked me. This was just using Major Trolls, Pally judgement and crusader procs since I didnt have my Heroism card yet and still havnt gotten my 2 piece BS. Should be easier when we go at him this week since I now have a heroism card to toss into the mix.

 

◊ Kalman

JoL doesn't eliminate the need to bandage or GSPP; basically, for alliance JoL allows you to ignore the poison damage, while horde (presumably) use Poison Cleansing Totem for the same purpose.

Our rogue lead also made up some Elixir of Poison Resistance, which are useful late in the fight if a doom is going to take you really low and you can't risk a poison tick, or if you're poisoned and need to bandage. No cooldown, doesn't interfere with your pot timer.

 

• Playered

Oh? i was just informed that JoL healed _MUCH_ more than the poison damage did... more on par with the amount doom does.
And that crusader/other source of healing (heroism, bloodfang, bonescythe, warrior abilities etc) *almost* countered the poison damage by themselves.

One other interesting thing, have people considered the use of double-bandaging to increase the amount healed? its hard to pull off... but its possible to get 2 applications of bandage on you at the same time, thus resulting in 4k healed for the usual cooldown...

 

Murgen

Dual wielding with flurry I only use GSPP. JoL doesnt do as much using a slow 2h with MS; I end up bandaging 2-3 times and using a healthstone on top of GSPP.

 

Tuco

this is what I made for our guild, and is what we use:

GSP before fight
1. GSP
2. Blocked
3. HS
4. Bandage
5. Nothing
6. Bandage
7. GSP/HS

The beauty about my rotation is that it allows people to use GSP/HS at Mark 7, and once you get it in farm mode, it allows you to only use 2 GSPs if everyone works right. We haven't had someone get killed (without them messing up) early.

 

◊ Kalman

Bandages are cheap, repairs are not.

Looking at our meters for our most recent kill (5:33, 5%, Ony, and Hakkar world buffs):

JoL healed me for 12798, of which 29% was overheal. 5:33 kill, so most of that overheal was during the first phase where doom isn't hitting
Bandaged for 5750 (I lost one bandage tick to a spore whacking me, I think)
Healthstoned for 1320

Shadow damage taken 13,222 - this does *not* include damage absorbed by pots
Nature damage 5,684, I used curepoison elixirs twice

Without bandaging, I'd be dead.

edit: Looking at logs from rogues with 8/8 BF or 2/8 BS:

JoL: 14499, Bonescythe proc: 1638
JoL: 11259, Bonescythe: 1729
JoL: 13932, Bonescythe: 937

etc.

Bonescythe proc is worth about as much as Crusader is for healing purposes.

 

Nurru

Have any of you alliance fury warriors tried a set like:
Heroism Card
2 Lifestealing weapons (Or maybe Crusader?)
Judgement of Light

I'm somewhat curious how much regen that would give.

< Aislinana> Why would it be my job to sleep with vontre? Don't I have standards?

 

Failure

Our order is:

pre-pot

1. Absorbed
2. Let it tick, bandage after, drink a shadow pot after
3. Abosrbed
4. bandage after.
5. hs (1440 variety imo)
6. bandage after, [maybe drink a shadow pot]

Thing is, we're killing Loatheb right before doom 6 at best, before doom 7 at worst. We'd have to see doom 8 for the last GSPP to make a difference, so most the time, we're getting off with only 2 shadow pots used in the fight. Either, you last the longest if you always prioritize your bandage cooldown, since it's the shortest. It's the same order overall, but I think the 2nd doom should be bandaged, not absorbed, it basically should be delaying your death 1 extra doom?

Also, as far as your death, are you sure you aren't pulling healing aggro on a spore during a bandage, or something? Having a bandage interrupted can cause a death for sure.