What do you think of the planned hunter mechanic changes? - Page 2

Phlis · 10/10/06, 10:48 PM

Originally Posted by RK

And if you're BM spec, it seems pretty likely that the ideal weapon is just "as damaging as you can, and the faster the better, and +crit mods help".

I think 2.0, with serpents swiftness and quiver(2.6-2.8), will be the best. You'll pretty much always be able to get steady shots in without interupting aimed shot and it drops to about 1.5 when AotH procs, so still able to wrap around steady shots if steady is not affected(It probably is though), which means you get 2 extra auto shots in per aoth proc, and your auto shots, and even multishots, won't be that small at all.

Same thing, pretty much with pet DPS, you want to find a mean between damage and attack speed so that the individual attacks, kill commands, aren't negligable. 1.5-2.0 is probably a pretty good range of pet attack speeds, depending on whatever the new pet attacks are. 0.96-1.28 when frenzied is a nice range.

Tzeni · 10/10/06, 10:50 PM

Originally Posted by RK

Edit: Misread the first time.

I think you mean 1.5 and 3.0 after quiver haste (so probably something like 1.7 and 3.4), although to realistically allow for lag and reaction time to actually fit the steady shots in between autoshots you mean 1.6 or 1.7 after quiver haste (so maybe 1.9 and 3.8?)... but then you need time as well to fit in potential multishots and arcane shots and kill commands...

It's much more variable than before. Perhaps they've made an error and there will still be a mathematical best rotation which is mana-sustainable and requires a particular speed weapon and where that rotation is more important than increasing white DPS. Right now the major problem is that keeping an older, slower weapon is better than upgrading to a higher level, faster weapon. It doesn't look like that will remain the case any longer. There may turn out to be an ideal speed, but it won;t be the dominating factor it once was.

And if you're BM spec, it seems pretty likely that the ideal weapon is just "as damaging as you can, and the faster the better, and +crit mods help".

It is variable, I agree... but I don't think global cooldown affects your auto shot. Correct me if I'm wrong, I could well be mistaken on that.

But if that WAS the case, then arcane shot shouldn't do anything to your autoshot timer and multishot would only have that slight Multi delay that's always been in the game.

Edit: same for kill command, if it ahd a global CD.

Glaurong · 10/10/06, 11:16 PM

Originally Posted by Phlis

While I love all the changes I think blizz missed 1 crucial thing which would round out hunters perfectly. An instant cast Pet HoT and an instant cast Pet Flash heal. Thats just about all we'd need to keep our pets alive without sacrificing any DPS at all, besides MP costs. Would have been decent as BM Talents, a pet hot and a pet swift mend right below it.

On the other hand I really like everything else, it's the one whiny thing I had to get out, now that I'm pretty much taken aback by the talents and don't care so much about the aimed shot changes.

I'm sorry but it would piss me off if they gave me more heals. Mend pet is a soloing deal, you get in a bit over your head you have an option. On a raid, if our pet is doing respectibly damage it should be getting renews. Between that and a judgement they shouldn't be in health problems any more than the rogues. Most definately with each faction getting another healing class.

EDIT

Originally Posted by Phlis

I think 2.0, with serpents swiftness and quiver(2.6-2.8), will be the best. You'll pretty much always be able to get steady shots in without interupting aimed shot and it drops to about 1.5 when AotH procs, so still able to wrap around steady shots if steady is not affected(It probably is though), which means you get 2 extra auto shots in per aoth proc, and your auto shots, and even multishots, won't be that small at all.

Same thing, pretty much with pet DPS, you want to find a mean between damage and attack speed so that the individual attacks, kill commands, aren't negligable. 1.5-2.0 is probably a pretty good range of pet attack speeds, depending on whatever the new pet attacks are. 0.96-1.28 when frenzied is a nice range.

Sorry I keep seing people mention IAotH. I really dont see any reason to use it with the new mp/5 aspect, both sides get kings, we all get AB, steady shot has no cool. New ranks of AotH are going to have to be damn sexy to beat out mana regen. Am I missing something?

Steelfleece · 10/10/06, 11:33 PM

We'll have JoW/BoW and possibly Mana Spring, that will help. One will have to see how much.

Glaurong · 10/10/06, 11:43 PM

Oh I'm alliance side and if I'm trying to push my dps I can still go oom real quick.

Zurai · 10/10/06, 11:51 PM

Well, for BM at least...

1.7 base speed weapon yields 1.07 speed after IAOTH, quiver, and SS. Over 10 seconds, that'll give you 9.33 attacks. At 50% chance for 59 mana (for the level 58 judgement - I don't know offhand what the higher level one gives back), that's 275 mana.

Now add in 1.67 arcane shots and 9.26 steady shots (haste affects cast speed if it works like aimed shot) for another 322 mana.

That's 1202 mana out and 597 mana in over 10 seconds.

Now assume aspect of the viper and 250 int. Your attack speed drops to 1.23 and your steady shot cast time is 1.25.

You get 8.13 autoshots, 1.67 arcane shots, and 8 steady shots in 10 seconds, for a total of 525 mana from judgement. Then you get 125 mana from viper, for a total of 650 mana in and 1077 mana out.

More mana-efficient? Yes. More damage-efficient? Debatable.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and rank 1 arcane shot only costs 25 mana pre-efficiency. If they keep the 20% AP and only rank up the +damage with each rank, rank 1 arcane is going to be mana-free damage with judgement up.

LadyVex · 10/10/06, 11:52 PM

Originally Posted by Glaurong

Oh I'm alliance side and if I'm trying to push my dps I can still go oom real quick.

How is that possible? Paying strict attention to my rotation it's almost impossible to go out of mana unless it's a mana draining fight.

Use major manas as SOON as you have the amount of mana gone that it gives back, use the night dragon breath whenever it is up.

Unless you're not using consumables it should be damned near impossible to ever hit OOM as an alliance hunter.

Steelfleece · 10/11/06, 12:07 AM

Do alliance with any amount of CS run out of mana at all? I mean, I do not even come close to running out of mana on Patchwerk, the biggest manadump fight in the game, using SUPERIOR mana potions and demonic runes as Horde.

Elendril · 10/11/06, 12:24 AM

Originally Posted by Steelfleece

Do alliance with any amount of CS run out of mana at all? I mean, I do not even come close to running out of mana on Patchwerk, the biggest manadump fight in the game, using SUPERIOR mana potions and demonic runes as Horde.

i OOM on sapphiron constantly, but i can only use 5 piece CS with my frost gear. i end up using demonic/dark runes to keep me up there, since i'm spamming frost pots.

i don't come close to running out of mana on any other fights, with 8 piece CS and mana regen enchant on bracers :-P i may use a combat pot now and then, but that's it.

krucifix85 · 10/11/06, 12:40 AM

Seeing you brought up Saph... in your "worst shutdown" thread Elendril, I see that 2 hunters are #1,2 dps.

Is that due to Hunter's relying less on their items (i guess scaling worse) than all the other dps classes (seeing you would be all in FrR gear, i assume), or is that something unique to the fight?

(i haven't seen / read much on the fight, at all)

Elendril · 10/11/06, 12:52 AM

hunters can basically constantly DPS, while melee classes can't meaningfully attack sapph while he's in the air and can't always effectively reposition themselves to keep attacking while avoiding blizzard, while mages are on decurse duty for the life drain. hunters are actually really gear dependant because so much of their damage comes from attack power, but the mechanics of the fight really favor hunters.

Pontiac · 10/11/06, 12:53 AM

Originally Posted by Zurai

EDIT: Oh yeah, and rank 1 arcane shot only costs 25 mana pre-efficiency. If they keep the 20% AP and only rank up the +damage with each rank, rank 1 arcane is going to be mana-free damage with judgement up.

They've already announced that healing and damage spells will only get a percentage of +heal or +dam based on the level of the spell. It would be a spectacular oversight if they didn't do the same thing with Arcane, and one they'd almost certainly correct in short order.

krucifix85 · 10/11/06, 1:09 AM

But even with 0+damage gear, Arcane Shot is still getting 20% of your AP (if that's the way the spell is designed at lower levels).

I think that's more what Zurai meant.

Zurai · 10/11/06, 1:15 AM

Originally Posted by krucifix85

But even with 0+damage gear, Arcane Shot is still getting 20% of your AP (if that's the way the spell is designed at lower levels).

I think that's more what Zurai meant.

Correct.

So, rank 1 will be ~200-250 damage for 25 mana, with a 50% chance to get at least 59 mana back.

Now THAT is mana efficiency.

It's possible they'll change that %AP based on relative level, but I doubt it. You're still sacrificing a big chunk or more or less unmitigated damage to get that mana efficiency.

◊ Eej · 10/11/06, 1:21 AM

It's entirely possible that only the level 60+ versions of Arcane Shot will be getting bonus from RAP. For example, only the ranks of Garrote past 60 have the Silence component.

Zurai · 10/11/06, 1:34 AM

Possible - but Garrote isn't part of a complete rewrite of the mechanics of a class, either. I think we'll see AP play a part in every rank of Arcane Shot. How much AP? Take a guess.

Glaurong · 10/11/06, 1:42 AM

Originally Posted by LadyVex

Originally Posted by Glaurong

Oh I'm alliance side and if I'm trying to push my dps I can still go oom real quick.

How is that possible? Paying strict attention to my rotation it's almost impossible to go out of mana unless it's a mana draining fight.

Use major manas as SOON as you have the amount of mana gone that it gives back, use the night dragon breath whenever it is up.

Unless you're not using consumables it should be damned near impossible to ever hit OOM as an alliance hunter.

I have a non ideal weapon speed so if I want to push my dps I clip my cycle. If I clip my cycle I go oom. Major manas are fucking stupid expensive so I've shyed away from them so far. Mageblood + 2x lesser mana oil is most I go for mana usually. Far as runes go I have a shitload sitting in my bags but with our healers I dont bother using them.

EDIT

Originally Posted by Zurai

Possible - but Garrote isn't part of a complete rewrite of the mechanics of a class, either. I think we'll see AP play a part in every rank of Arcane Shot. How much AP? Take a guess.

Percentage normalized to AP per DPS at each level. Using lvl 60 and 14 as a reference is my bet

◊ Eej · 10/11/06, 1:46 AM

Where's your Nightfin and Combat Mana Potions? I mean come on, Superior and Combat Manas are like my bread and butter. Also pop your Demonic Runes like crazy unless you're in a fight like Thaddius or Loatheb. For those fights, just use NDBs.

Maybe you should just go more with more stuff for mana, get some mp5 on your bracers and some CS pieces.

Glaurong · 10/11/06, 1:56 AM

Originally Posted by Eej

Where's your Nightfin and Combat Mana Potions? I mean come on, Superior and Combat Manas are like my bread and butter. Also pop your Demonic Runes like crazy unless you're in a fight like Thaddius or Loatheb. For those fights, just use NDBs.

Maybe you should just go more with more stuff for mana, get some mp5 on your bracers and some CS pieces.

Hunter was a reroll from my priest which was a reroll from my warrior so I have 0 pvp rep or rank.

Bottom line, if I was in a guild where people got into mechanics and min/maxed like me I would go all out and probably not have mana problems. Thing is, I'm not. Blowing 3-5g worth of consumables (or more) on attempts got real old real quick when I'm only one of a few doing so.

◊ Shalas · 10/11/06, 1:57 AM

Originally Posted by Glaurong

Originally Posted by Zurai

Possible - but Garrote isn't part of a complete rewrite of the mechanics of a class, either. I think we'll see AP play a part in every rank of Arcane Shot. How much AP? Take a guess.

Percentage normalized to AP per DPS at each level. Using lvl 60 and 14 as a reference is my bet

AP per dps doesn't scale with level, and there isn't really any reason to make it scale with level.

Glaurong · 10/11/06, 2:04 AM

Originally Posted by Shalas

Originally Posted by Glaurong

Originally Posted by Zurai

Possible - but Garrote isn't part of a complete rewrite of the mechanics of a class, either. I think we'll see AP play a part in every rank of Arcane Shot. How much AP? Take a guess.

Percentage normalized to AP per DPS at each level. Using lvl 60 and 14 as a reference is my bet

AP per dps doesn't scale with level, and there isn't really any reason to make it scale with level.

Too many replies but I'm bored in BWL.

Thats suprising, I remember they scaled agi/crit and a couple other things as you level so I assumed stuff like AP per dps would as well. Guess I haven't been below 60 in a long ass time though.

Zurai · 10/11/06, 2:05 AM

Originally Posted by Glaurong

Percentage normalized to AP per DPS at each level. Using lvl 60 and 14 as a reference is my bet

Can you explain that to me in English?

(Not a slam if you happen to be not be a native English speaker - I just have no clue what you mean, honestly)

osirisunnefer · 10/11/06, 2:31 AM

Originally Posted by Zurai

Originally Posted by Glaurong

Percentage normalized to AP per DPS at each level. Using lvl 60 and 14 as a reference is my bet

Can you explain that to me in English?

What he's trying to say is that he thinks that while 14 Attack Power is 1 dps at level 60, you will require more Attack Power for 1 pds at level 70.

While its an interesting proposition, there have been no reports about it from people on the alpha and they have already modified Crit and Hit so they scale downwards, so I doubt it would be the case.

Brannwyn · 10/11/06, 2:32 AM

Originally Posted by Zurai

Originally Posted by Glaurong

Percentage normalized to AP per DPS at each level. Using lvl 60 and 14 as a reference is my bet

Can you explain that to me in English?

(Not a slam if you happen to be not be a native English speaker - I just have no clue what you mean, honestly)

I think he means that the Jargon you are using is a bit thick and to please explain what you mean.

Glaurong · 10/11/06, 2:59 AM

Originally Posted by osirisunnefer

Originally Posted by Zurai

Originally Posted by Glaurong

Percentage normalized to AP per DPS at each level. Using lvl 60 and 14 as a reference is my bet

Can you explain that to me in English?

What he's trying to say is that he thinks that while 14 Attack Power is 1 dps at level 60, you will require more Attack Power for 1 pds at level 70.

While its an interesting proposition, there have been no reports about it from people on the alpha and they have already modified Crit and Hit so they scale downwards, so I doubt it would be the case.

Pretty much what he said for 60-70.

Opposite for the levels below 60.

But someone already pointed out it doesn't scale back at levels below 60 (its always 14 ap per dps) so my guess must be wrong.

Curious why they would scale something relatively minor like agi/crit but not scale something huge like ap/dps.