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Old 10/14/06, 11:48 AM   #1
Savos
Piston Honda
 
Undead Warrior
 
Mal'Ganis
Just trying to think of a way to do these style of fights better as an off tank.

Battle Shout spam should be superior to Sunder spam when you are only really getting rage from white hits and trying to pull aggro right?

10 rage for 55 threat / person * 5 People (unknown if it must be clicked off or not though) = 27.5 threat / rage / target

5/5 Defiance Sunder is 260 * 1.30 * 1.15 = 388.7 / 15 = 25.9 threat / rage, talented 32.4 threat / rage

Seems like it would be a decent idea to use battle shout to build off tank threat (sans talented Sunder) and a bonus is you don't have to worry about miss/dodge/parry and it is cheaper so you get a smoother threat curve as your ability is used more often. Assuming that battle shout reapplications do provide the same threat as the initial.

Thoughts?

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Old 10/14/06, 12:00 PM   #2
zepi
Miekkamies
 
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Human Mage
 
Darksorrow (EU)
It depends quite a lot if you really can use BS. We usually have Paladin + Warlock + few tanks / rogues in Broodlord tankgroups, so you'd probably be BS'ing only 3 ppl. On huhuran MT group we usually have MT, OT, Hunter, Priest and Warlock, so it'd mean from 2-4ppl depending if warlock and or hunter poisontank in close range...

So in theory, yes, but usually your group compostion is such that you have either shamans / warlocks / paladins in tankgroup who don't want to stay inside the BS range.

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Old 10/14/06, 12:04 PM   #3
Savos
Piston Honda
 
Undead Warrior
 
Mal'Ganis
Would seem reasonable to get them to adjust positions though especially to allow better control over Huhuran especially... Broodlord not so much because of Blastwave.

Though it might be worthwhile to pick up a few points in the extended range talent.

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Old 10/14/06, 12:28 PM   #4
Schnappi
Piston Honda
 
Orc Shaman
 
Vek'nilash (EU)
Huhuran is high rage off tanking if you do it like we do: Switch very early in the fight and then switch every time the OT's stacking DoT wears off. We usually have about 3-4 switches before 30%.

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Old 10/14/06, 2:57 PM   #5
Daboran
King Hippo
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Twisting Nether (EU)
Originally Posted by Schnappi
Huhuran is high rage off tanking if you do it like we do: Switch very early in the fight and then switch every time the OT's stacking DoT wears off. We usually have about 3-4 switches before 30%.
Same here - assuming your tanks are familiar with their own aggro levels it is relatively easy for MT1 to simply stop attacking at around 4 debuffs and let MT2 overtake him. Keep doing this until around 32%, stop dps, switch tanks so you have a MT with no debuffs again for the enrage, then go full out dps.

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Old 10/14/06, 6:41 PM   #6
Savos
Piston Honda
 
Undead Warrior
 
Mal'Ganis
I'm not really trying to alter the overall strategy on say Huhuran or whatever, just trying to find ways that are better to generate threat as an off tank in a generic sense, but Huhuran and Broodlord seemed decent examples.

Wrong title perhaps I suppose, sorry.

Regardless, is any information known about if repeated applications of battle shout generating the same threat?

I tried it a bit as a Hakkar tank but the results weren't very impressive, though that perhaps might have been the hunter overaggroing, though I am not sure, switched to a more standard sunder and bloodrage strategy and worked fine though.

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Old 10/15/06, 7:15 AM   #7
Arko
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Warrior
 
Alleria (EU)
Why did you add the def stance bonus to sunder armor but not to battle shout?

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Old 10/15/06, 7:43 AM   #8
Taeme
Soda Popinski
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Mug'thol
Originally Posted by Schnappi
Huhuran is high rage off tanking if you do it like we do: Switch very early in the fight and then switch every time the OT's stacking DoT wears off. We usually have about 3-4 switches before 30%.
I was thinking about this recently. I am glad to see I am not insane. It sounds like a good idea. (Switching more than once, not necessarily switching 4 times which sounds a little goofy)

you're the one that decided to trust me

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Old 10/15/06, 7:44 AM   #9
 sp00n
banned
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Wrathbringer (EU)
Originally Posted by Arko
Why did you add the def stance bonus to sunder armor but not to battle shout?
Indeed, the battle shout should go to 55*1.30*1.15= 82.225 with def stance and defiance.
Applying it to 5 ppl would give 426.125 threat, which is 42.6125 threat/rage.
For 4 people buffed it is 32.89 (still better than improved SA), for 3 24.6675, which is worse than not improved SA.

So I think, if everybody of your party is in range, battle shout would be a very good tool to genereate threat if there is low rage available.
Problem is, the warlock in your party will most likely be out of range. Priest/hunter/shaman/paladin most likely as well.
The only ones who really should be within range are rogues and other melees. And as a rogue, I prefer an improved battleshout if available.

On a sidenode, is the warlock's imp affected by battleshout?


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Old 10/15/06, 11:48 AM   #10
Savos
Piston Honda
 
Undead Warrior
 
Mal'Ganis
I believe Hunter's pets are, not Warlock Imps as they are generally phase shifted.

I did not include the defensive bonus and defiance modifiers as the information from Kenco seemed to indicate it was only base theat not modified by stance, I could be misunderstanding it however.

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Old 10/15/06, 12:03 PM   #11
Sebila
Piston Honda
 
Murloc Warrior
 
<DD>
Icecrown
Originally Posted by Daboran
Originally Posted by Schnappi
Huhuran is high rage off tanking if you do it like we do: Switch very early in the fight and then switch every time the OT's stacking DoT wears off. We usually have about 3-4 switches before 30%.
Same here - assuming your tanks are familiar with their own aggro levels it is relatively easy for MT1 to simply stop attacking at around 4 debuffs and let MT2 overtake him. Keep doing this until around 32%, stop dps, switch tanks so you have a MT with no debuffs again for the enrage, then go full out dps.
Same here as an OT, but I don't use battle shout, nor even sunder primarily, still rely on revenge/shield block, shield slam, hs and only some sunders, but with TF.

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Old 10/15/06, 12:32 PM   #12
Savos
Piston Honda
 
Undead Warrior
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Sebila
Originally Posted by Daboran
Originally Posted by Schnappi
Huhuran is high rage off tanking if you do it like we do: Switch very early in the fight and then switch every time the OT's stacking DoT wears off. We usually have about 3-4 switches before 30%.
Same here - assuming your tanks are familiar with their own aggro levels it is relatively easy for MT1 to simply stop attacking at around 4 debuffs and let MT2 overtake him. Keep doing this until around 32%, stop dps, switch tanks so you have a MT with no debuffs again for the enrage, then go full out dps.
Same here as an OT, but I don't use battle shout, nor even sunder primarily, still rely on revenge/shield block, shield slam, hs and only some sunders, but with TF.
How are you using revenge while not the primary target?

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Old 10/15/06, 1:23 PM   #13
Apate
POWER = MEAT + OPPORTUNITY = BATTLEWORMS
 
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ChickenArise
Night Elf Warlock
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by Savos
10 rage for 55 threat / person * 5 People (unknown if it must be clicked off or not though) = 27.5 threat / rage / target
It doesn't.

See you, auntie.

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Old 10/15/06, 6:10 PM   #14
Furion
Don Flamenco
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Blutkessel (EU)
On topic: Maybe use a Macro to switch between dual wield and Shield(Weaponquickswap recommended). Using an offhand certainly helps building rage faster.

Offtopic: If Hunter Pets are affected by Battleshout... I imagine a group with 4 Hunters+Pets in range to be by far the most efficient way to build aggro. Not that I can think of any use for that.

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Old 10/16/06, 3:54 AM   #15
 sp00n
banned
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Wrathbringer (EU)
Now the question is, is battleshout affected by def stance and defiance or not?
It isn't very clear on Kencos summary.

Most warrior abilities add a fixed amount of threat when they land successfully. The following table gives the raw values, i.e. before the modifiers from battle stance or defensive stance, and ignores the damage done by the abilities.


Sunder Armor............260
Heroic Strike 8.........145
Heroic Strike 9 (AQ)....175
Revenge 5...............315
Revenge 6 (AQ)..........355
Shield Bash.............180
Shield Slam (1.11)......250
Thunder Clap............130
Demoralizing Shout.......43
Battle Shout.............55
Battle Shout generates 55 threat for each player that is buffed; up to 5 people in your party and their pets, as long as they are on the relevant mob's threat list. For example if you buff a player that is out of combat, no threat is generated. Therefore in a tightly packed group, Battle Shout can rival Sunder Armor for threat, but as a buff the threat is split amongst all the mobs that are aware of you. On the other hand, Demoralizing Shout gives 43 threat to each affected mob. As long as there are 6 or more mobs affected, it will hold aggro as well or better than Sunder Armor.


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Old 10/16/06, 4:32 AM   #16
Ragnor
King Hippo
 
Human Paladin
 
Blackrock
Stand a bit closer and get slept and have someone specifically assigned to cure it off you asap, gives a bit of extra rage

The universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements. Energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest.

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Old 10/16/06, 6:02 AM   #17
Huthuthike
Von Kaiser
 
Undead Warrior
 
Spirestone
http://thottbot.com/?sp=12792

Increases the threat generated by your attacks by 15% while in Defensive Stance.
Based on the wording battle shout would not get the bonus for defiance as it isn't an "attack."

Has anyone tested this?

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Old 10/16/06, 7:08 AM   #18
 Hamlet
<Druid Trainer> Emeritus
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Huthuthike
http://thottbot.com/?sp=12792

Increases the threat generated by your attacks by 15% while in Defensive Stance.
Based on the wording battle shout would not get the bonus for defiance as it isn't an "attack."

Has anyone tested this?
Yeah, but look at Effect 1.

Links: Moonkin Resto WoWMath Twitter YouTube
Please don't PM requests for advice on UI or specific gear choices.

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Old 10/16/06, 9:16 AM   #19
Quigon
Bald Bull
 
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Tauren Warrior
 
Kil'Jaeden
Honestly the battle shout "trick" is borderline exploit - learn it the right way... use sunder et al.
Talented sunder is exceptional, last I checked though shield bash is better in threat/rage. So just setup a priority system there. Have the MT stop attacks I suppose if necessary, they'll get into a rhythm... the tank switch is half the fight for sure though.

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Old 10/16/06, 9:33 AM   #20
Beaggie
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Warlock
 
Maelstrom
Originally Posted by Schnappi
Huhuran is high rage off tanking if you do it like we do: Switch very early in the fight and then switch every time the OT's stacking DoT wears off. We usually have about 3-4 switches before 30%.
Pretty much what we do.
Also, as an OT for Huhuran, an effective way to sustain rage is to ask for a quick cleanse of Wyvern Sting when you know you can handle the 3k damage it deals. The damage taken gives a nice amount of rage to climb back up for the next switch.

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Old 10/16/06, 10:15 AM   #21
 Hamlet
<Druid Trainer> Emeritus
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
We just switched to the "sacrificial lamb" strategy after a while. Much easier.

Athough, you'll just have to deal with it again on Gluth, so maybe that's not to be encouraged anymore.

Links: Moonkin Resto WoWMath Twitter YouTube
Please don't PM requests for advice on UI or specific gear choices.

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Old 10/16/06, 4:30 PM   #22
Savos
Piston Honda
 
Undead Warrior
 
Mal'Ganis
I keep seeing advice for specific circumstances, eg: dispel wyvern sting etc.

While those are valid (and nesscessary sometimes!) ideas, it doesn't really address the generic problem of how to efficiently spend the rage you are getting with the goal of generating threat. Sunder just is not that great at developing threat with only a S/S setup, and I did try adjusting to two-hander and windfury in defensive to improve threat generation and it did help a lot. Somewhat dangerous to eat a few hits without a shield though sometimes unless you are using KLH or Invunlerability pots and know precisely when the transition will occur. Definitly going to have to run a few experiments to see which sort of strategy works better. Good advice though. Somewhat stuck as a 31/1/19 at the moment so SS is a bit off as I am behind a few long standing tanks that are already protection.

Abilities should generate threat, though the amount for Battle Shout probably needs a nerf, though the only "nerf" to battle shout tanking that I know of is to the Twin Emperors initial proximity threat bonus being reduced so healers would outpace the tank on the caster Emperor quickly (or something like that).

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Old 10/16/06, 4:40 PM   #23
Beaggie
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Warlock
 
Maelstrom
Originally Posted by Savos
Abilities should generate threat, though the amount for Battle Shout probably needs a nerf, though the only "nerf" to battle shout tanking that I know of is to the Twin Emperors initial proximity threat bonus being reduced so healers would outpace the tank on the caster Emperor quickly (or something like that).
Nefarian phase 1 would be another one.
Single tank spamming battle shout near the throne while casters AoE made the fight trivial for us.

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Old 10/16/06, 4:44 PM   #24
Bibdy
Great Tiger
 
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Orc Warlock
 
Bonechewer
Its just about crazy enough to work, by jove!

There's always free cheese in the mouse traps, but the mice there ain't happy.

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Old 10/16/06, 5:02 PM   #25
Minotas
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Warrior
 
Rexxar
I just duel wield in def stance when I need to build threat. But then, I'm fury.

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