Low rage off tanking (Huhu and Broodlord mostly)

Savos · 10/14/06, 11:48 AM

Just trying to think of a way to do these style of fights better as an off tank.

Battle Shout spam should be superior to Sunder spam when you are only really getting rage from white hits and trying to pull aggro right?

10 rage for 55 threat / person * 5 People (unknown if it must be clicked off or not though) = 27.5 threat / rage / target

5/5 Defiance Sunder is 260 * 1.30 * 1.15 = 388.7 / 15 = 25.9 threat / rage, talented 32.4 threat / rage

Seems like it would be a decent idea to use battle shout to build off tank threat (sans talented Sunder) and a bonus is you don't have to worry about miss/dodge/parry and it is cheaper so you get a smoother threat curve as your ability is used more often. Assuming that battle shout reapplications do provide the same threat as the initial.

Thoughts?

zepi · 10/14/06, 12:00 PM

It depends quite a lot if you really can use BS. We usually have Paladin + Warlock + few tanks / rogues in Broodlord tankgroups, so you'd probably be BS'ing only 3 ppl. On huhuran MT group we usually have MT, OT, Hunter, Priest and Warlock, so it'd mean from 2-4ppl depending if warlock and or hunter poisontank in close range...

So in theory, yes, but usually your group compostion is such that you have either shamans / warlocks / paladins in tankgroup who don't want to stay inside the BS range.

Savos · 10/14/06, 12:04 PM

Would seem reasonable to get them to adjust positions though especially to allow better control over Huhuran especially... Broodlord not so much because of Blastwave.

Though it might be worthwhile to pick up a few points in the extended range talent.

Schnappi · 10/14/06, 12:28 PM

Huhuran is high rage off tanking if you do it like we do: Switch very early in the fight and then switch every time the OT's stacking DoT wears off. We usually have about 3-4 switches before 30%.

Daboran · 10/14/06, 2:57 PM

Originally Posted by Schnappi

Huhuran is high rage off tanking if you do it like we do: Switch very early in the fight and then switch every time the OT's stacking DoT wears off. We usually have about 3-4 switches before 30%.

Same here - assuming your tanks are familiar with their own aggro levels it is relatively easy for MT1 to simply stop attacking at around 4 debuffs and let MT2 overtake him. Keep doing this until around 32%, stop dps, switch tanks so you have a MT with no debuffs again for the enrage, then go full out dps.

Savos · 10/14/06, 6:41 PM

I'm not really trying to alter the overall strategy on say Huhuran or whatever, just trying to find ways that are better to generate threat as an off tank in a generic sense, but Huhuran and Broodlord seemed decent examples.

Wrong title perhaps I suppose, sorry.

Regardless, is any information known about if repeated applications of battle shout generating the same threat?

I tried it a bit as a Hakkar tank but the results weren't very impressive, though that perhaps might have been the hunter overaggroing, though I am not sure, switched to a more standard sunder and bloodrage strategy and worked fine though.

Arko · 10/15/06, 7:15 AM

Why did you add the def stance bonus to sunder armor but not to battle shout?

Taeme · 10/15/06, 7:43 AM

Originally Posted by Schnappi

Huhuran is high rage off tanking if you do it like we do: Switch very early in the fight and then switch every time the OT's stacking DoT wears off. We usually have about 3-4 switches before 30%.

I was thinking about this recently. I am glad to see I am not insane. It sounds like a good idea. (Switching more than once, not necessarily switching 4 times which sounds a little goofy)

sp00n · 10/15/06, 7:44 AM

Originally Posted by Arko

Why did you add the def stance bonus to sunder armor but not to battle shout?

Indeed, the battle shout should go to 55*1.30*1.15= 82.225 with def stance and defiance.
Applying it to 5 ppl would give 426.125 threat, which is 42.6125 threat/rage.
For 4 people buffed it is 32.89 (still better than improved SA), for 3 24.6675, which is worse than not improved SA.

So I think, if everybody of your party is in range, battle shout would be a very good tool to genereate threat if there is low rage available.
Problem is, the warlock in your party will most likely be out of range. Priest/hunter/shaman/paladin most likely as well.
The only ones who really should be within range are rogues and other melees. And as a rogue, I prefer an improved battleshout if available.

On a sidenode, is the warlock's imp affected by battleshout?

Savos · 10/15/06, 11:48 AM

I believe Hunter's pets are, not Warlock Imps as they are generally phase shifted.

I did not include the defensive bonus and defiance modifiers as the information from Kenco seemed to indicate it was only base theat not modified by stance, I could be misunderstanding it however.

Sebila · 10/15/06, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by Daboran

Originally Posted by Schnappi

Huhuran is high rage off tanking if you do it like we do: Switch very early in the fight and then switch every time the OT's stacking DoT wears off. We usually have about 3-4 switches before 30%.

Same here - assuming your tanks are familiar with their own aggro levels it is relatively easy for MT1 to simply stop attacking at around 4 debuffs and let MT2 overtake him. Keep doing this until around 32%, stop dps, switch tanks so you have a MT with no debuffs again for the enrage, then go full out dps.

Same here as an OT, but I don't use battle shout, nor even sunder primarily, still rely on revenge/shield block, shield slam, hs and only some sunders, but with TF.

Savos · 10/15/06, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by Sebila

Originally Posted by Daboran

Originally Posted by Schnappi

Huhuran is high rage off tanking if you do it like we do: Switch very early in the fight and then switch every time the OT's stacking DoT wears off. We usually have about 3-4 switches before 30%.

Same here - assuming your tanks are familiar with their own aggro levels it is relatively easy for MT1 to simply stop attacking at around 4 debuffs and let MT2 overtake him. Keep doing this until around 32%, stop dps, switch tanks so you have a MT with no debuffs again for the enrage, then go full out dps.

Same here as an OT, but I don't use battle shout, nor even sunder primarily, still rely on revenge/shield block, shield slam, hs and only some sunders, but with TF.

How are you using revenge while not the primary target?

Apate · 10/15/06, 1:23 PM

Originally Posted by Savos

10 rage for 55 threat / person * 5 People (unknown if it must be clicked off or not though) = 27.5 threat / rage / target

It doesn't.

Furion · 10/15/06, 6:10 PM

On topic: Maybe use a Macro to switch between dual wield and Shield(Weaponquickswap recommended). Using an offhand certainly helps building rage faster.

Offtopic: If Hunter Pets are affected by Battleshout... I imagine a group with 4 Hunters+Pets in range to be by far the most efficient way to build aggro. Not that I can think of any use for that.

sp00n · 10/16/06, 3:54 AM

Now the question is, is battleshout affected by def stance and defiance or not?
It isn't very clear on Kencos summary.

Most warrior abilities add a fixed amount of threat when they land successfully. The following table gives the raw values, i.e. before the modifiers from battle stance or defensive stance, and ignores the damage done by the abilities.

Sunder Armor............260
Heroic Strike 8.........145
Heroic Strike 9 (AQ)....175
Revenge 5...............315
Revenge 6 (AQ)..........355
Shield Bash.............180
Shield Slam (1.11)......250
Thunder Clap............130
Demoralizing Shout.......43
Battle Shout.............55
Battle Shout generates 55 threat for each player that is buffed; up to 5 people in your party and their pets, as long as they are on the relevant mob's threat list. For example if you buff a player that is out of combat, no threat is generated. Therefore in a tightly packed group, Battle Shout can rival Sunder Armor for threat, but as a buff the threat is split amongst all the mobs that are aware of you. On the other hand, Demoralizing Shout gives 43 threat to each affected mob. As long as there are 6 or more mobs affected, it will hold aggro as well or better than Sunder Armor.