To directly answer the topic question: When you feel you have done everything you can to make it so you have fun in the guild, and you still are not.

Sometimes, you may find that even though you feel dissapointed in your guildmates for not being as hardcore as you, you may still be having fun. You're also at a place/time right now, where many raiders are going to be losing motivation for continuing, with BC on the horizion, make it clear to leadership that you are in this to see new bosses, and you'd like to do it before BC

Do whatever keeps the game fun for you, within the limits allowed by your conscience. If fun for you involves being in an advanced guild and getting T2.5/3 epics, then that's your goal. Personally, I would weigh friendships and a healthy guild atmosphere rather heavily, but to each his own. If your guild zoomed thru MC and BWL in 1 month, then it probably prized progression above all else, so having members who hop at the first chance at even better progression is something that comes with the territory.

Keep in mind, however, that in the long run, your reputation will affect you more than any loot you could ever gather. Even a server transfer will only start you back at Anonymous. It cannot buy you a 'good' reputation.

Also, like attracts like. Its almost impossible to progress past AQ40 these days without recruiting players that have left other raid guilds. But some leave for better reasons than others. If a guild is willing to take in blatant guild hoppers, it cannot complain when that player one day leaves for equally unsatisfactory reasons. And what kinds of people do you want to surround yourself with every day anyways?:)

Whatever you do, make sure you communicate clearly with the rest of your guild what the problems you're having are.

I didn't, I internalised my problems, so when I left (Soulbound, the guild I'm now back in) it was a rather big surprise and there was a fair amount of bitterness. Even when I reapplied six months later there were still some reservations about me.

edit: the above is assuming you care about your rep on the server, which you really should if you want to keep raiding. Guilds are very rarely open recruiting, they'll want chapter and verse on your guild history and why you left, and while you seem to have another guild lined up, what about if that one doesn't work out, you leave that guild, and you're stuck in the wilderness? Your rep is probably as important as your skill and gear.

For the record, I changed guilds about a month, month and a half ago.

I'm still good friends with pretty much everyone in my old guild, have access to the guild forums, have an alt in their alt guild, etc.

Circumstances vary; if you're clear about why you left and the reasons are good ("I wasn't having fun, I didn't want to play" is fine; "I wanted moar purplez" is not) odds are decent that most of the old guild will understand.

Definitely depends on the guild. I was in my previous guild for a year. We were like "war buddies", but soon as I gave my resignation post I was exiled. I still talk to a couple guild members, but overall the guild pretends like I never exist due to my departure for a more serious raiding guild.

Theres something fishy about "naxx starting guild" that is willing to recruit a crappy geared rogue. Not like there is a shortage if this class. I mean go if you see it being better choice but I personally wouldnt expect too much jump of a quality.

Naxx starting guild = Instructor/Anub = possible with little better then tier 1 if your real good. Say,if your rerolls on a new server and have been there before.

Yeah, I'd say that if you'er not having fun, then is the time to move on.

You say he has the support of some officers but it appears to me that they are the same officers who are slacking in raids. If you have the support of the members who are pulling their own weight, I'd say you are the one calling the shots.

First off, I'd suggest a discussion with the leader and the officers about that. If that doesn't work out to your satisfaction, try letting him handle leading entirely for a week or so to let yourself and others get a proper impression of how he's managing. If you still find it to be an issue after that, you can try a "public" discussion (all guild members but no one outside the guild) about the issue and what kind of long term solution they'd like. It may be that they support him or it may be that they support you but the opinion of both members in general and particularly the core raiders should be an indicating of which way to go. If you have massive support and your leader won't let you handle raid leading without his interruptions, you may have to reform the guild without him as happened to Nightmares Asylum.

In the end this is a hobby, like any other team based hobby. When is it ok to leave? The answer is when you aren't having fun anymore. What are the things you should do before you leave? Make sure any debts you have to the guild are paid. The best way to make a bunch of enemies would be to leave at -1,000,000 DKP because they would feel like you didn't spend the time to help them accomplish their gear goals after you filled yours. Anytime I've left a guild in any MMO I've always been at the top or DKP cap for the guild, leaving all of those points on the table. Why? Because then nobody can question that I didn't put in my time to earn the gear the guild did help me obtain.

I'm with CrazyGamer on this one, with the exception of letting him lead for a week. That might push some people out of the guild before you get the chance to take charge (if it comes to that).

Every story has two sides, but even if what you say is half precice, you shouldn't have to suck it up at all.

Put some feelers out there; if the majority of the guild agrees with you, you can just ask him to leave the guild. If he refuses that, form a new one. After all, you did just fine in his and his friends absence right?

Worst case scenario, you apply to another guild. But don't just up and leave; explain to the rest of them the situation, then make your farewells peacefully.

The first time we downed Nef, the raid leader immediately put AQ40 into our rotation. That was a month after we killed Rag. We now have 4 Nef kills under our belt and have downed Huhu twice. We have the Twin Emps pull and a few teleports down but Emps is honestly the first time in AQ that we've collectively said "okay we have to gear up for this fight". Our MT is only in 5/8 Wrath and is still wearing a blue belt from ZG. Stupid low Wrath/Might drops.

Only 1 of our Priests (me) is in 3/8 Trans - 2 (new recruits) have none at all. It's probably more difficult, but not impossible to start AQ early. I think it's made us better as a guild.

We are starting Naxx tonight. :P

You guys have to be on of the most skilled, or most flasked guilds I've ever heard of....Hell just farming the NR for Huhu for a raid usually takes at least a couple weeks. The whole story seems a little nuts.

"Previously we've been led by a guild leader / raid leader who although brash and abusive, got the job done"

It's been my personal experience that this does not work well in Naxx. You want 40 people working in unison, but everyone needs to show individual intitative. Yelling makes people follow the line but dampens down any intelligent thought. It's quite likely someone who led successfully through MC/BWL where that was all you needed will be in for a very rude shock upon return.

As for how to handle it. You have two choices, and they depend on who the guild leader and his cronies are:

If you judge them incapable of change, or egotistical bastards (ie.. are they the type of people to move against you as a threat), you need to set them up and take them out. Offer them no help. Do not assist setting things up that they forget. Give them enough rope to hang themselves. Put feelers out, use your friends. Your goal is them either quitting or a break/reform. Go for the throat. The more people you get and the more swiftly it's done the better.

If they are decent, then you work with them. Phrase things as for the good of the guild. Work from there. Help them out.

Personally, anyone who would take off to egypt for an extended period without passing leadership is a complete asshat and should be punched in the face. It's just fucking bullshit. Leaders should lead by example. In the end, there really isn't any other way.

It's entirely possible, my guild went through the same rate of progression. After 2 Rag kills we went into BWL and cleared it all within the week, we then bravely strode into AQ40 and managed to clear to Huhuran who promptly whipped us because of course we had little to no NR. Our progression has definitely outstripped our aquesition of gear, but it makes fights that much more interesting. I'm probably one of the few Priests who could say they healed Huhuran with Dreadmist being their best healing robe. :P

As for leaving your guild, don't feel you're under any obligation to stay. If you have fun with the people you play with then the game shouldn't really feel like a chore, if you find yourself dreading logging in, or worse, simply logging in because you feel obligated to then it's time for a break. WoW is a game, and if you're not playing it for your own enjoyment there's no reason to play at all.

The enjoyment you get from WoW really has everything to do with the people you play with, I couldn't imagine playing it solo or with people I hated, being in a good guild with people you like really does make all the difference, and if you're in such a guild hold on to it for dear life.

We definitely took advantage of the craftable NR for Huhu. After many, many ZG runs we had a good amount of Bloodvine and people were advised to start collecting the mats for it after we downed Nefarian the first time. The guild bank was tapped to help in that also. Most of our guild are re-rolls from an Alliance raiding guild so they knew which Maraudon pieces to pick up. We did flask 2 tanks, 2 priests, and a few mages on both the first and second kill.

Ok, this doesn't directly relate, but I assumed it would be better here than in it's own topic.

When is a guild in a slump, and when are they dying?

I was in one of those shoot thru MC/BWL guilds, taking care of those instances in about 1-2 months. After that, we shot thru Fankriss as well, and waited for people to get NR. We downed huhu one week using zanza pot's and then that was nerfed the next week (lame strat, I know, not the point of question though). A few weeks later, we down huhu normally. During those few weeks, our guild leader/raid leader gets his xbow of smiting, last piece of tier 2, and prestors, pvp's for a few days, and then sells his account. Since then, attendance has been crappy, we wipe on bosses we shouldn't have, and we haven't progressed since the middle of july.

Now that we've finally got people showing up for emps and we had them down to 20% in 12 minutes, the leadership decides that the guild wants to get easy epics from Anub'rekhan and Razuvious. I took over as raid leader month or so after the other one quit, and I told them that I wouldn't do that, it's a waste of time. So now I'm being replaced as raid leader for Naxx.

Is this a really long slump or what?

When the guild believes it is dying, it is.

It makes me mad when I hear that people are going to a new guild for "progress". Being there for a raid's first kill is progress. Going to a guild that is a whole instance above you is not going for "progress". It is jumping content for better loot and more prestige which are both valid reasons. If someone plays the game for progress, I do not think jumping content would be acceptable to that person. The thread author might have much more fun in a hardcore raiding guild environment, but that fun has nothing to do with progress. Going from a class leader to the new guy that needs to be ran through BWL for loot does not seem like much fun to me. When this new hardcore raiding guild gets a first kill in Naxx and the new guy is sitting there in his tier 1, is he really going to feel like he ever really contributed to this progress?

I am sorry if my post is a little inflamatory but being an officer of a medium level raiding guild, I have heard the "progress" excuse many times. It always sounds like bs to me. The execuses that I would except are "I want better loot" or "We don't raid enough" or "the MT is a self absorbed prick".

That's because you want to hear the details that can be fixed.. or might be able to be fixed.. instead of the vauge "progress". Thing is, you shouldn't be depending on exit interviews to tell you what's wrong in your guild. Officers tend to get tied up in the general bs and grumbling of a guild and forget that whatever they get told is only half the story.

I am going to reply to this, simply becuase the guild Molpadia is refering to joining (and more specifically the officer who confronted him) is me. :))

The guild he is in now "Reborn" has traded members with us for a good 2-3 weeks now, back and forth, having people leave us for them, and leave them for us, the issue Molpadia is having right now, is unlike the rest of the members who have converted, he has a Heart, and a knowledge of right/wrong which is making this decision harder. As far as Reborn's progress, right now they are ranked 3rd as far as overall progression ( but personally i rank them 2nd) the biggest issue ive seen (and heard complaints about) is there unheard of Open Bid DKP system (LOL Open bid?).

Our server is rather new (June release) the first guild was in MC early august, the second guild, was in MC 1 week after them, after 14 days from Hakkar dead. we had Rag dead (only 2 mc clears and 3 ZG clears and rag was dead) Note. we kill Broodlord before we killed Rag, after only 1 MC run. On our first MC run (2 Zg clears before this) we 1 Shot every boss, up to Golemagg (unable to summon domo for obvious reasons) the next week, we bolted in a 1 Shot domo, then 3 shot rag. We killed Razorgore our 4th attempt (after 1 MC clear, got a HUGE thrashing on the boards about "di hacking" lol) we had a minor setback, and didnt kill Vael for another week and a half, but once vael was dead we did Vael - Chromaggus in a single week (not know you could still hide from Nef's landing breathe we called it) 2 weeks later (and now with 35 ony cloaks) we 2 shot nef. with 1 dwarf priest, and only 3 deaths. we farmed BWl/MC for 2 weeks till AQ gates were open. on the first day of AQ (this is maybe 6 MC clears 3 BWL clears) we killed Ossiran(1 shot) Skeram, and Sartura. the next week (this week) we are wiping on Huhu (have the NR for it, just cant get it down yet) Fankriss, we killed with 3 priests. Sartura, with 3 priests, Skeram with 4 priests. We then (after our first Sartura killed) went into Naxx, and got anub rekhan down to about 70%. (note only 3 priests still[man we have an issue with priests ;p])

Having said all this, i think what Molpadia is not looking to jump ship for a more progressed guild, i think he is looking further, and determination, and overall skill of the guild as a whole.

However as stated earlier, when BC is released, most guilds will split, pick there top 35-40 and kick the rest, the need for a 55-60 person raiding guild, is ending, and will cause alot of break downs, and reforms on the server, and guild base. i would not be surprised, if 3 out of 5 guilds, on our server broke down completely, forming 2- 3 seperate guilds all together. the epics you can attain now, will mean nothing (aside from Saphiron/Kt and some select naxx loot) will all be replaced by lvl 68-70 with Greens and quest Blue's.

Personally, it is your choice. Whatever makes you happy, would be best, but then again, sometimes its harder to do what makes you happy, when you feel your choice will hinder soo many others :)

There are 2 ways to take this. Either you're saying a mindset like mine is killing the guild, or you're saying that when the guild members begin to question it, then the guild is already dying. Which did you mean?