Ooh, a Gothik thread. Only major boss without a strategy thread--I was tempted
to make one myself just to read about it.
Originally Posted by Praetorian
Loatheb. (Actually the same designer did Grobbulus too, but I
actually like Grobbulus -- it's a fun fight and I like the concept. It's just
too easy.) I just can't wrap my head around how the same person produces the
ultimate "skill > consumables" fight and then turns around and makes a "deposit
gold for epics" moneysink. :(
Edit: (BTW, to ward off any conspiracy theories, my knowledge about who
designed what, etc., comes from interaction with devs on the Naxx PTR.)
Want to talk about this, but will make a new thread.
---------------
Gurg, what reference point are your timestamps based off of?
The timing for the fight works most neatly from the moment he does his third yell ("Now there is only one way out...") If you start a timer at that precise moment, you will find that the trainees spawn at 0:10, 0:30, 0:50, 1:10, 1:30, 1:50, 2:10, 2:30, 2:50, 3:10, and 3:30. You will find that DKs spawn at 1:00 and every 25sec thareafter, and that a Rider spawns at 2:00 and every 30sec thereafter. The last set of spawns (when the three spawn loops sync up) is at 3:30, and Gothik comes down right after 4:00.
The timing for the fight works most neatly from the moment he does his third yell ("Now there is only one way out...") If you start a timer at that precise moment, you will find that the trainees spawn at 0:10, 0:30, 0:50, 1:10, 1:30, 1:50, 2:10, 2:30, 2:50, 3:10, and 3:30. You will find that DKs spawn at 1:00 and every 25sec thareafter, and that a Rider spawns at 2:00 and every 30sec thereafter. The last set of spawns (when the three spawn loops sync up) is at 3:30, and Gothik comes down right after 4:00.
Isn't it more like 4:15 (just based on other timing I've seen?). It's hard to tell; I only have a dead side video at the moment. Also, are those his exact words?
About how much time is there between death on live side and appearance on undead side?
Trying to do a little pre-emptive bossmodding . . .
It may be just a pet peeve of mine, but it's annoying when someone asks for strats/info on an encounter when they won't even put for the effort to at least pull once to wipe and see what happens.
It may be just a pet peeve of mine, but it's annoying when someone asks for strats/info on an encounter when they won't even put for the effort to at least pull once to wipe and see what happens.
Right now (meaning, between now and TBC), I'm arming myself with anything I can, in the way of information, about boss fights. Any or all of it could save my guild time at some point. I imagine most people who are at risk of not seeing all the content the game even has to offer would feel the same way.
If you objected to my getting any information about a fight EJ killed months ago, it seems your problem would have been with me reading this thread in the first place, regardless of whether I ask for a trivial extra bit.
Also, while I may already have tipped my hand, any of the stuff I've asked could easily have come from someone who's seen the fight a few times.
I'd really love to talk about our strat on this fight because I believe it is absolutely exceptional - but I don't think any guild should waste their time with consumables on this fight (even on the first kill) - this is a pure 1 shot execution style fight unlike say... sapphiron or loatheb (although sapph is no walk in the park execution style, it just really benefits massively from consumables).
I think this was already reiterated in this thread multiple times though, beyond that others can spoil the fun :o I'll hate seeing the 4H strat revelation thread - especially as this fight is similar in microcosm to that one... all those wonderful and unique 4H strats that every guild came up with to beat the fight will ultimately be emulated versions of whats easiest to pull off. Shame I think, moreso than any other previous bosses.
Gothik is honestly a lot easier with world buffs, I hate to say it. Your margin for error on dead side is so much larger (everything dies extremely fast) that it's hard for things to really go wrong unless people make glaring mistakes.
The thing I will say; I don't know where people got the idea the dead side was the difficult part. The dead side is definitely the easier part, as long as your DPS is quick to assist.
Either side can be the hard side depending on how much you CC and your strategy - live was never the problem for us for instance initially - just changed things to balance it up.
I think this was already reiterated in this thread multiple times though, beyond that others can spoil the fun :o I'll hate seeing the 4H strat revelation thread - especially as this fight is similar in microcosm to that one... all those wonderful and unique 4H strats that every guild came up with to beat the fight will ultimately be emulated versions of whats easiest to pull off. Shame I think, moreso than any other previous bosses.
True, though it'll all be moot once TBC hits because Naxx will be marginalized and these fights in particular will be trivialized by the level difference (taunting 4H as a level 63+ warrior? yes please). I personally plan to start a "what is the optimal 4H strat" thread by then, if no one else does, just for the fun of comparing the pros and cons of all the different approaches. In the meantime, figuring out a strat that personally works for your guild is too much fun to spoil.
True, though it'll all be moot once TBC hits because Naxx will be marginalized and these fights in particular will be trivialized by the level difference (taunting 4H as a level 63+ warrior? yes please). I personally plan to start a "what is the optimal 4H strat" thread by then, if no one else does, just for the fun of comparing the pros and cons of all the different approaches. In the meantime, figuring out a strat that personally works for your guild is too much fun to spoil.
That thread will be interesting. Right now we're trying all these queer things with our players. Our tanks rotate in a full caurosel every 2 marks, we have six groups of 2 healers rotating seperate from the tanks and marks(they relieve the other healers) then we have a few on the DPS(which are doing a fairly standard looking 5 group rotation). I have a feeling though, that if we all lined up our strats that a number of guilds would have originally created that same strat, or whatever queer strat we make up by the time we get a kill.
Bringing this thread back up from the dead as I know there is something we can do to improve our gothik add strat. Three kills and then a night of wiping on this boss. And none of the kills have that farm feeling.
Heres our basic strat.
6 mages, 6 priests, 1 tank, 2 warlocks 1 rouge, 1 pally live side
3 tanks, 2-3 hunters, 6 rogues, 3 dps warriors, 5 pallys, 3-4 druids (the numbers change a bit on this side but this is the ideal they try to aim for since I'm a mage I'm not entirely sure just who is on the dead side)
Anyhow, the warrior live side stands in the middle, to get the rider (all riders are killed ASAP), rogue assists killing the rider and kills the middle trainee. Left and right sides have a warlock killing trainee spawns. Mages frost nova the left so a priest (usually 2) chain shackle it until dead, no nova means someone gets charged. The right side has a pally on it, gets aggro pulls it over to the side so the priests can shackle it without having them stacked up or dieing to a charge.
We crowd control waves 8,9, 10, 11 on the trainees (3 sheeps and 1 fear kited add on the left and right side) middle trainee is killed from start to finish. Deathknight waves 1 and 2 are killed on each side, preist shackles adds 3-7 the rest of the fight on the right and we kill the death knights on the left until the last spawn which is shackled. So basically the left right kill strat, then all left and mix some crowd control in. The live side usually pulls this off around 60%+ of the time, the other 40% is from random priest deaths or random dps death which happens too much for my liking. (deathknight one-two shotting and/or marking and sometimes trainees pwn a healer but that usually doesn't happen)
Deadside, I'm a lot less familiar with. They create a line which the healers are behind, they focus fire on the correct mods, at least thats what they are attempting, the horses are tanked off to side and ranged down usually, (tried meleeing them down but found that the slow debuff allows too many ghosts to live too long) However, the main issue is that dead side pulls there side off about 40-50% of time. (usually when the live side goofs they do it flawless) Listen to chat during and after the attempts/kills, common threads are of 'so much arcane dmg in so little time', or 'add in the healers' is the usual blame issue on wipes. We do use arcane protection potions. but again, i'm live side so dead side is still a question mark to me, just that they wipe a lot more. And to top it off, the dead side sometimes aggros the shade in the next room wipe results in very fast wipe. We're guessing it has a large assist radius and the dead side just gets unlucky when that happens.
Anyhow, thats the basic strat, when we mange to pull this off, gothik usually lands with 99% of the live side up and at least 75% of the dead side up. When this happens we've always managed to kill gothik, rather easy at that point, and a few minutes of clean up after.
I do realize there are many many different ways of doing this fight, heard of frost mages kiting all the death knights around the room, glad I don't that :S. tanking horses live side for the entire fight (tried that, the aoe range on their pulses is stupidly large), etc etc. Is there any comments on improving our strat? I would really like to give this encounter a farm status feel rather than going up against a wall and praying we get lucky :S
I'd really love to talk about our strat on this fight because I believe it is absolutely exceptional - but I don't think any guild should waste their time with consumables on this fight (even on the first kill) - this is a pure 1 shot execution style fight unlike say... sapphiron or loatheb (although sapph is no walk in the park execution style, it just really benefits massively from consumables).
I think this was already reiterated in this thread multiple times though, beyond that others can spoil the fun :o I'll hate seeing the 4H strat revelation thread - especially as this fight is similar in microcosm to that one... all those wonderful and unique 4H strats that every guild came up with to beat the fight will ultimately be emulated versions of whats easiest to pull off. Shame I think, moreso than any other previous bosses.
Okay, you've got me really intrigued. This has always been our toughest fight, and it feels like 4H is easier with our progress thus far.
We used to do it without world buffs/flasks, but after two kills we wiped for a night then did it again after Loatheb and easily one shotted it. Without heavy consumable use you have to really be sharp on not only having perfect frost nova/sheeping/shackling execution, but also DPSing as well.
With our loatheb buffs we can just go in and even though we still need to be on top of shackles/novas, our DPS and sheeping doesn't need to be quite as tip top to defeat the encounter and it's a lot easier.
Once your raid is pretty good at the encounter, there's no reason to not wait until after Loatheb to do it(Unless you want to practice 4H or something) It's not required but it's a lot easier.
As for raid makeup, I don't really think it favors classes that much more than other encounters once you have 6 mages/priests/warriors, though I'd prefer to have 7 of each. Generally we have 8 warriors anyway for 4H.
While we've done every boss in the zone without worldbuffs I find the best way to approach it is to get them and do loatheb/sapph/kt. Mostly for the hp boost on sapph/kt, and to insure that we dont fall short with our pvp specs on loatheb
Me too, we just killed saph (hours before patch 2.0 thank god) and Gothic is BY FAR our most difficult encounter. 4HM we get on 2nd/3rd go (still people that havent done it fully) and loatheb dies np, thaddius is fine unless the five people who live together all DC at once. Gothik however is like stabbing rusty nails into my skin, while rolling in salty acid.
Any tips you may have would be REALLY appreciated.
Bringing this thread back up from the dead as I know there is something we can do to improve our gothik add strat. Three kills and then a night of wiping on this boss. And none of the kills have that farm feeling.
Heres our basic strat.
6 mages, 6 priests, 1 tank, 2 warlocks 1 rouge, 1 pally live side
Huh. Why in would you put a rogue (ROUGE? get that shit out of here) on live side? Also, 17 people? Also, I'd put a druid over there -- you want someone who can do nothing but heal and doesn't have shackling to worry about. A combat rez if a priest gets intercept-gibbed can save a wipe, too.
Do most people split the sides unevenly? We've always done 20/20 and never thought twice about it.
Our ideal live-side composition is 3 warriors, 6 mages, 3 warlocks, 6 priests, 1 shaman, 1 other (a 7th priest if somehow have one is perfect). A hunter can fill a mage/lock slot if you don't have 9 mages+locks combined. Then everyone else (~3 warriors, 5-6 rogues, 4-5 hunters, and all other shamans/druids healing) on the dead side.
Does anyone else offtank two of the Riders liveside until Gothik is dead?
We put two warriors liveside and have the secondary warrior go to the far corner (in between entrance and the middle gate) with the second Rider and then the primary Warrior pull over the fourth Rider to him. A dedicated healer (usually a druid, with one of the two live side Paladins on backup) on this tank can outrange the shadow damage aura when at max range.
This seems to be alot better for us when we don't have exactly the ideal raid composition for the fight, and helps our dead side with keeping everything under control.
We just had our first Gothik kill yesterday (yay right before 2.0 too) and used a 20/20 split. I wish we would had tilted it 19/21 at least towards undead though. By the middle of the night, live side was owning the spawns and going flawlessly towards Gothik spawn while undead was struggling to keep up. With a tweak to assisting towards the end of the night, everything just clicked and we killed him the second time we saw him drop below 95% (96% and 97% midway through the raid, 47%, then 0%).
Spending all night on that side putting up with the frustrations of watching wipe by wipe occur because a rider got through to the healers made killing Gothik so immensely satsifying. BTW, am I the only one who thinks shadow pots are, albeit more expensive, more useful on undead side? Shadow auras just do a ridiculous amount of interruptions to my heal (yes, I have healing focus) and nuke the whole raid at once. Everytime I used an arcane pot, I don't think I ever absorbed anything so I just ended up not drinking any of those. At least arcane damage spam is limited to hitting a few melee at once, at the most.
Bringing this thread back up from the dead as I know there is something we can do to improve our gothik add strat. Three kills and then a night of wiping on this boss. And none of the kills have that farm feeling.
Heres our basic strat.
6 mages, 6 priests, 1 tank, 2 warlocks 1 rouge, 1 pally live side
Huh. Why in would you put a rogue (ROUGE? get that shit out of here) on live side? Also, 17 people? Also, I'd put a druid over there -- you want someone who can do nothing but heal and doesn't have shackling to worry about. A combat rez if a priest gets intercept-gibbed can save a wipe, too.
Do most people split the sides unevenly? We've always done 20/20 and never thought twice about it.
Our ideal live-side composition is 3 warriors, 6 mages, 3 warlocks, 6 priests, 1 shaman, 1 other (a 7th priest if somehow have one is perfect). A hunter can fill a mage/lock slot if you don't have 9 mages+locks combined. Then everyone else (~3 warriors, 5-6 rogues, 4-5 hunters, and all other shamans/druids healing) on the dead side.
When we don't have 3 warlocks (and we're often a little melee heavy), we've put a mace spec'd rogue on live side. They take almost no healing and can solo a trainee just as easily as a warlock. I wouldn't say it's better, but it's not any worse.
We also started out with a straight 20/20 split and went to a 19/21 and even an 18/22 a few times when undead side was falling behind. The live side is more about crowd control. Almost every live side wipe we've seen has been a missed frost nova or shackle that cascades slowly into more and more deaths.
On undead side (I have less experience here), more DPS seems to not only mean an easier time keeping up with the waves that come in, it also means better control and less damage taken by everyone over there.
This isn't necessarily my favorite encounter. Live side feels way too scripted (like 20 people with G15s could one shot this weekly) with little opportunity for improvisation and skill to poke it's head up until the last wave is out.
Heh we simply split the raid into:
2 Warriors... All Mages.. Priests.. Warlocks.. with 1 Paladin and maybe a Druid over on live-side.
4-5 Warriors... All Rogues.. Hunters.. left over Druids and Paladins on dead-side.
Not enough Warriors? bearform Druid!
Our main problem was the survivability of the dead-side (to which zanza's / hakkar buff / flask - any and all helped here), and co-ordination on the live-side (and no stupidly placed dots breaking cc!)
Once those got mastered... with enough Priests/Mages/Warriors online... :)
Huh. Why in would you put a rogue (ROUGE? get that shit out of here) on live side?
Granted, I've just started on this fight, so what do I know :)
I'd always thought a rogue on the live side would be an intriguing strategy. I would place the rogue on the kill platform with orders to stun the DKs. IMO this would potentially save you a priest slot on the live side if you happen to be short - you'd no longer need the shackle spammer on that side and hence could sub in a paladin or a druid to heal or whatever. A prot war's stun is on a 45sec cooldown so it's not a reliable way of interrupting the DK charges.
We haven't experimented with this approach yet - still working out more basic details. Being a lot more familiar with this encounter, what's your opinion? Do you think this would be viable?
Well, I suppose we use three warriors on liveside, and we're unusual in doing that. Everyone seems to use fewer. They can help with trainees too, but they also help hold things in place as they die, and later on can offtank if something gets loose and we lose some CC.
Well, I suppose we use three warriors on liveside, and we're unusual in doing that. Everyone seems to use fewer. They can help with trainees too, but they also help hold things in place as they die, and later on can offtank if something gets loose and we lose some CC.
We also use 3 tanks on live side. The one in the middle stays there the whole fight, tanking the riders.
The other two are there to keep the trainees under control/kill them. Intimidating Shout and ShieldWall+AETaunt can really help to stay in control when some things go wrong come the last wave at 03:30.
10/20/06, 11:37 PM
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