Yeah, I was just being a dumbass. Even w/ mobs poisoned, 5pt KS (find weakness) and about 950 AP I was unimpressed with the damage mutilate did. Again, only spending about 15 mins killing UD things in EPL/WPL. My initial plan was to go play around at tyr's, but I didn't even get that far.
Also the new NE stealth waddle was driving me rather insane.
I bitch about Disc on this board pretty frequently. Having tried out this spec last night on PTR, I'd have to say I remain unimpressed. I'm certain with practice I'll start to anticipate when I am about to be focus fired on, but without cross healing it didn't seem like Pain Suppression made the life or death difference in a fight - Arena or Battleground. The rest of the talents are passive or standard on most healing Priests with the exception of Reflective Shield. Reflective Shield didn't seem to make a lot off difference (the DPS is minor). It did kill off hunter pets quite nicely though, but only when the hunter was out of range to support his pet. I'm going to play around with the spec a while, since it seems to be the designated healing Priest PvP spec and the PvP revamp will be pretty much the only new content next patch.
Nerby (you may or may not recognise the name) is PvP based priest from my guild, and he has been doing nothing but swear by deep discipline.
He was 5v5 Arena'ing and as long as he was able to use PS before being silenced, he was fine as all hell.
I was (and still am) worried about it's purgability, but with warlocks, mages, priests, etc having heaps of scrap buffs (and mana free buff time) i guess that's less of a worry.
Sad, but true - almost no one will be speccing into Shadowstep or Surprise Attacks until 61. Maybe a very, very heavy PvPer could take Shadowstep... but I'm not sure about that, even.
That said: 11/40 will blow 20/31 out of the water, most likely. Combat Potency more than makes up for the loss of Lethality. 11/0/40 might be interesting also as a hemo build, picking up the %Agi talent; again, it should more than compensate for the Lethality loss. Dagger-wise, I'll play around with some kind of Mutilate build (43/3/5, probably), and then probably go back to 15/31/5 until I can snake a sword or mace to level with.
Eh, Relentless just isn't as good in PvP; Lethality and the lack of Malice stand out more to me as the problems with Shadowstep in a PvP build, as to get Shadowstep working you end up with something like 2/8/41, and it's to be determined just how good that is.
I'd be going from an average crit Ambush (assuming typical PvP setup) of 2041 to 2428, though, which is substantial.
Raid dps, however, will take a nosedive. Even at level 70 I'd be looking at something like 5/15/41, but with Resiliance I'm expecting SS or Hemo builds to top Ambush/BS builds in the arena.
*Insert standard Raid vs. PvP spec rant*
Can we please have an arena reward that lets us alternate between two specs?
I was poking around with 41/5/5 last night in EPL. It's slightly better than I thought, but I didn't have high expectations. My daggers are a little sub-par admittedly, DFB and Veiled Shadows. It's very frustrating that they decided to put in the poisoned requirement to make the skill worth shit. Why? Seriously. Just why? Cuts dps by not-insignificant numbers by denying you IP for grinding and it's not rare to have Crippling (even with dual Crip) not proc for the duration of Cheap Shot. Crip is pretty decent for kiting elites rather than waiting in melee while I regen energy to get behind them but for nonelites (unless I'm worried about random pvp) it's just wasted.
I think it will work pretty well for instance work (with imp ambush and serrated blades, I think you can really put the CP generation to work) and be serviceable in non-Arena pvp (Prep being king there obviously), but for a 41pt talent it's far too limited, with the poison requirement being the numero uno stupid thing. You should be able to keep up Expose Weakness at least most of the time. For 41pts I don't want "a little better than backstab... usually". Mutilate vs a BoF Paladin, shifting druid, etc, it's just silly. Oh, and bad mutilates just as a Mage gets out of Ice Block, unless you just get lucky and proc Crip on the auto just before. I ask again, why the poison requirement?
Nerby (you may or may not recognise the name) is PvP based priest from my guild, and he has been doing nothing but swear by deep discipline.
He was 5v5 Arena'ing and as long as he was able to use PS before being silenced, he was fine as all hell.
I was (and still am) worried about it's purgability, but with warlocks, mages, priests, etc having heaps of scrap buffs (and mana free buff time) i guess that's less of a worry.
obviously, the second spec there involves no new talents. (but does give me a short c/d on mind blast, due to the range talent being reduced to 2tp's)
as i haven't had experience with my warlock, i don't know what spec i could go.
My druid will be the cookie cutter 0/41/10 feral spec, many people have already linked.
To be absolutely fair as possible to PS, I used every tool I could think of to make sure it wasn't purged - putting on every buff my UD Priest could muster and throwing five points into Silent Resolve (instead of going for cheaper instacast spells or attempting to get PI). I didn't play a whole lot mind you, I'd like a week to mess with this to really be happy with making a definitive statement about PS, but I will say it was never successfully removed. I believe there were three reasons for this:
1. 90% of the teams you seem to find on PTR are PUGs and don't know how to assist worth a damn and only Shaman can really purge and not miss out on some DPS in the meantime (if they are Enh)
2. Organized teams have someone dedicated to silencing the Priest before PS often anyway. The few times I was assisted on I was stunned or otherwise too locked down to PS before death.
3. Frontloaded DPS is insane on test with a lot of the 41 point talents. In that environment PS is only worthwhile with a player with experience in it, and I'll be the first to admit mine is negligible. Still, without cross healing I don't think it will let you live that much longer than Holy Resilience (which will almost always be up if you are being assisted on).
Nominally I am with BRL but my account is inactive. Also they kicked out the RL friends I'd been playing with so I dunno what's going on, sorta in limbo. Thankfully you can test for free.
Edit: Reflective Shield is breaking CC all over the place in AB, if I do go Disc for PvP I'm probably not gonna take it for that reason.
Kalman, can you explain why you feel that 11/40/0 is better than 10/41/0 for combat swords. Doesn't that depend on the fight significantly ?
I'm finding that fear/hide fights (Gluth/Chromag) or run fights (Twin Emps) the bonus provided by RS was somewhat reduced as the cycle time for CP generation only allows for one cycle - and then there is a full energy regen. RS works well when you are starved for energy between cycles on stand and spank fights (Raz, Patch, Noth to a lesser extent)
I was looking at a 10/41 for 2.0 because I felt that the 5/5 CP was going to mean that I wasn't starved for energy anyway, and the 8% (+dodged) bonus on my SS just "felt" better.
What's a good formula for plugging my numbers into ? (For example, I can find out what 8% increase in SS damage is worth, and what the mob +dodge percentage is worth), but I've no math background to determine what the +25 energy is worth in the calculation.
Pewsey has heard about tact and discretion, but tends to regard them much as children view vegetables.
There are only two kinds of MMOs: the ones people complain about and the ones nobody plays. (inspired by Bjarne Stroustrup)
I threw this Priest build together on PTR without much thought due to all of the lag. Aside from one quick run through UD Strat, I have been doing 5v5 Arena matches and have been quite satisfied though for live I would probably move two points from Spiritual Guidance to Healing Prayers and maybe mix around Disc ever so slightly.
Most of my games were with guildmates forming a group of priest, warrior, druid, hunter, and then either a second hunter, a warlock, or a mage for the fifth spot. I most definitely felt like Blessed Resilience was giving me better staying power as I basically chain healed and shielded myself while being focus fired. Since I still have Benediction, I was quickly targeted every battle so I got quite accustomed to playing the "stay alive while my teammates kill my attackers" game. I only had a few deaths and they became much more rare when we started having the druid stay stealthed until I began to be focused fired. Trying to take down anyone when a Holy priest and a 41pt Resto druid are healing them is quite difficult. Granted we likely went up against mostly PUGs so my anecdotal evidence is based off of a pre-made in BWL/AQ and a sprinkling of Naxx (3 bosses down) gear going up against unorganized groups in a wide variety of gear. I stand by Blessed Resilience as being a worthy talent due to the sheer number of crits a priest will be subject to while being focus fired.
I thought about trying the Disc talents but I'm just not impressed with most the higher tiered talents and if Reflective Shield is breaking CC then that is another strike against it. Pain Suppression seems great but I think in organized 5v5 Arena play, it will be dispelled quite often, especially as people start learning who is specced for it. Of course in 2v2 and 3v3, you are more likely to come against teams that can't dispel so it does have its advantages.
Ultimately, I love being a raid healer that can mix it up in PvP and from my standpoint, I really like a heavy Holy build with Blessed Resilience.
Clearcasting, however, never seemed to proc enough when I was testing it by just spamming heals on myself. If it went up to 10% like the mage version, however, I would definitely grab it. I still may as I approach 70 but I won't lose any sleep if I don't find a way to work it in my build.
I'd suggest putting 1 point in SoR as well. The extra 5 seconds does make a noticable difference and the extra 5% spirit is nice. This is what I was planning on for my priest. Hopefully a couple of the other priests will be going imp DS so I don't have to.
Currently deciding whether I want to go with balance or feral in the next patch. I have the gear to support either, my feral stuff is better but that's mostly because balance itemization is crap.
My heart is definitely still in feral but I plan on doing mostly PVP, and IMO a level 60 feral build is lacking a few critical feral PVP talents. No maim or 10 yard pounce yet either.
I have yet to try out a balance build on PTR due to all my balance gear being mysteriously eaten by the PTR bank monster but I'll try and give it a whirl when I can get a new copy of my druid on there.
Note that I'm still not very comfortable with moonkin, I have PVPed a lot as 30/21 balance and never felt moonkin was worth losing NS for. Remains to be seen if treants, 2% more crit and empowered starfire can change my mind.
Vitality sucks. I can't reach Anger Management ... damnit and i want to skill Imp Demo Shout, cause Demo Shout scales "alot" with Mob modificators going up.
Mangle is rather silly for me in pvp at this point. Even full dps spec'd in live with 1.4k AP unbuffed I have never been able to feel like a dangerous force in pvp, more like an annoyance, something people have to kill to get to the dangerous guys.
But right now in the ptr i am -eating- mages, I am the very worst thing that can happen to a mage. But druids have always been good against mages, What im finding out is that I'm able to do enough dps that other classes have to watch out, pallys and priests can't just heal through it and hurt me.
I'm pretty excited to see the itemization in BC.. if its good enough lolzcatdps might be alittle bit less lolz.
\"Listen, I\'m trying to have a serious conversation about ferret bras and you are not listening\"
I'd love to put more points in Prot, but we're still raiding and I'm hitting the mana pots hard enough as it is without losing Illumination. Aura Mastery could be nifty, but it's silly to spend a point on it while the 3-piece Judgement bonus is still available.
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
For live (DRUID!) I'm looking at a 0/41/10 or 0/40/11 build, still testing to see is mangle is better than OOC but I think it is. I'm moonkin atm and its very strong, although my current build is more for lols than legit (4x/0/5). What I'm noticing is the treants are way better than I thought they would be, and not really for the damage they do (which isn't bad at all, I see mine crit for 200ish pretty often.) The real power of treants is its worse than a ZG bat on you. You can't really see well and are forced to tab target since the screen is full of them. They can also shut most casters down, I've even seen pallys bubble out of them (which amusingly enough drops their aggro on the pally and they go chase someone else.)
I'd like to be the guild Imp. Farie Fire bitch, because its really quite fun. Barring that, I have yet to try treeform, going to need to test more.
Are we getting an updated talent spec to test before they launch this patch or is what we see what we get pre-BC? Expansion talents are quite different and I wouldn't spec the same given what I see on beta and on test.
Depending on the quantity of decursing we have to do in TBC raids, Absolution might be nice. My idea is to stay the course of what I know works for me right now, then adjust once I see how TBC raiding will be at 70.
If I had the luck of being in a structured Arena team I'd probably go heavy Disc. Pain Suppression reminds me of BoF that Albion Clerics (and I after I quit, all 3 main healers) had in DAoC. I was an Aug Healer for a long time and I loved that supporting type of role in a gank squad.
Depending on the quantity of decursing we have to do in TBC raids, Absolution might be nice. My idea is to stay the course of what I know works for me right now, then adjust once I see how TBC raiding will be at 70.
If I had the luck of being in a structured Arena team I'd probably go heavy Disc. Pain Suppression reminds me of BoF that Albion Clerics (and I after I quit, all 3 main healers) had in DAoC. I was an Aug Healer for a long time and I loved that supporting type of role in a gank squad.
Think you might have made a bit of a misstype with something as they're both 60 builds, but you seem to be saying the second one will be your 70 build >.>. Anyway, if you are sticking with #1, I would really really suggest swaping as many points from spiritual guidance into Spiritual Healing as possible. The new spiritual Healing is by far the stronger talent this patch.
I'm raiding shadow, and I don't really have all that much spirit. The reduction in cost for my spells with Focused Mind was actually more beneficial to my longevity, tied in with VT, than keeping Meditation was, so I see no reason in keeping it at the moment. Come Burning Crusade, you can bet your ass I'm putting my first points into it; after all, why not?
A lot of people ask why not just put 51 into shadow if I'm not getting Med, and the simple answer is the threat reduction is too good to pass up, along with the fact that not all of our tanks are as good at keeping aggro as our MT is. If threat were't a problem, and Affinity was enough, I'd have a much different build; possibly http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...11251123051551
with that extra point in fade just as insurance =)
I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should chellenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him.--Mark Twain
Im trying to put a value on relentless and how much it gives, i just wish i could move away from the 11 points in assasination i just dont know how much it would take for it to be worth taking the points out? Is it really just 50 energy every minute? With a 1.5 speed dagger and combat potency thats 8 procs on average a minute for 120 energy.
Im probably way off track but i was looking towards something like this.
Its 5am so im not really in the mood to do some serious maths ><. But the point in surprise attacks im sure could be moved into slice and dice. All the points in assasination after malice are all about keeping slice and dice up mainly (cept lethality) With a 1.5 speed offhand(120 energy per minute), and 4 piece bonescythe (around 30 energy per minute? guessing) would this all grant enough energy to keep up a complete SnD cycle? Would losing lethality ruin this or is that balenced by picking up surprise attacks?
Well, here's the thing. Relentless is more and more valuable the more energy you generate - it's effectively a 5 energy refund on every combo point you use. For combat daggers, that's right around 50 energy per minute, but for combat swords with CP and BS4, it'd be more like 80 energy per minute. Something like a 5/41/5 might work out for levelling, where you aren't really using SnD all that much, but in that kind of circumstance CP loses a lot of its attraction as well; you're almost better off using a heavy Mutilate/poisons build where you burst most mobs down in a couple Mutilates, something like
Depends on if you're going to be raiding with your build or not, really. For raiding, swords obviously moves to 11/40, but I'm not really sure if daggers wants to go to a Mutilate setup or stick with 15/31/5.
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
Has anyone put serious thought into the question what the optimal cycles for a 41/0/5+5 spec in a sustained DPS scenario (assuming a 100% poisoned target) are?
If it weren't for Find Weakness, the optimum probably would be to use the next finisher after one Mutilate if Ruthlessness and Seal Fate proc giving you 4cp, otherwise do the next finisher after two mutilates. Choose SnD if the old one is about to run out, else choose Eviscerate.
But how do we optimize Find Weakness? Is it best to just "ignore" it insofar as you do not alter the cycle and just take the bonus if you happen to get it, or is there a better cycle to make the best use of Find Weakness?
And would Dual Crusader be the best enchant combo for a Mutilate build? The reason Crusader was better on the mainhand was that on the mainhand it could be triggered by specail attacks as well. However this changes with Mutilate, or does it?
I think when I was looking at optimized FW cycles, the ideal was something like 5S/3E/2E or similar, spacing the 3 and 2 to be 10 seconds apart, but that was based on the assumption that FW affected white damage.
Does FW affect uncontrolled yellow damage (i.e. poisons)?
If not, I think the optimal cycle will be ~ build 4/5, wait for your energy to tick full, pop SnD, Mutilate Mutilate, wait for your energy to tick full, Evis/Enven/KS/Rupture, Mutilate Mutilate, repeat.
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
Well, here's the thing. Relentless is more and more valuable the more energy you generate - it's effectively a 5 energy refund on every combo point you use. For combat daggers, that's right around 50 energy per minute, but for combat swords with CP and BS4, it'd be more like 80 energy per minute. Something like a 5/41/5 might work out for levelling, where you aren't really using SnD all that much, but in that kind of circumstance CP loses a lot of its attraction as well; you're almost better off using a heavy Mutilate/poisons build where you burst most mobs down in a couple Mutilates, something like
Depends on if you're going to be raiding with your build or not, really. For raiding, swords obviously moves to 11/40, but I'm not really sure if daggers wants to go to a Mutilate setup or stick with 15/31/5.
I thought that might be the answer >< it just pisses me off, pretty much all the other clases recived new talents and special stuff, us dagger rogues.....NOTHING. How does 11/40 stack up to daggers now with naxx gear?
Does FW affect uncontrolled yellow damage (i.e. poisons)?
Doesn't seem to. I just spent a while testing on the PTR, killing blood elves in azshara (CS/SnD for FW/melee to death with double instant), and got a max of 148 and min of 112, both of which were definitely with FW active.
edit: also, on a completely unrelated note, i just discovered that you can click poisons off now, which will make being swapped in/out of shaman groups much less annoying..
Relentless is one of the highest DPS / Talent point talents a rogue can get. Its just that important. For PVP only you could work without it, but if you want a PVE build or a PVE/PVP hybrid build you definitely need it.
Rogues really get the shaft here because, unlike most other classes, they wont see a huge DPS boost until well into TBC leveling process. At level 60 rogues just dont have enough combo points to do anything that special because blizzard insists rogues need to spec into multiple trees.
11/27/06, 5:15 PM
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