That's what you're saying. I have my doubts that a warrior will have any rage left after keeping BT / WW / rampage on cooldown, so all the extra damage warriors currently produce by HS spam is pretty much gone.
I've been running some basic numbers, and I'm curious about a few things. With 300 Weapon Skill, it seems that Glancing Blows themsevles make up about 15% of a Rogues Total DPS (not total hits, just DPS).
I guess the question is, how much does the change from the Glancing Blow default from 30% damage reduction to 24% plus an increase in Crit on all your Yellow and White Non-Glancing attacks increase compensate for the fact that WS no longer effects Glancing Blow damage.
I wouldn't be surprised if the DPS difference wasn't nearly as large as people think it is. Is WS in TBC still the "Best" PvE skill? Well that's probably not true anymore as you could replace +weapons kill with straight crit and probably get a bigger benefit, but I don't think it will be that bad. I need to run the numbers in a bit more detail, I'll post when I'm done (lunch first).
I know it's odd to quote yourself, but I've been crunching some numbers and none of it looks "right". Until Blizzard gives us a better worded description of the changes (way to ambiguous the way it's written now), it's going to be hard to tell the difference. Also, how sure are we about the change to 24% reduction instead of 30%? Assuming someone's not at the +15% hit, +33% crit threshold, I'm thinking an increase in crit on Yellow Attacks (assuming Lethality) and on White Non-Glancing blows coupled with the 24% change might make things a lot closer than people think...but if it is, why change it?
I understand itemization is brutal, and maybe like Crit Rating now, they can spread around Weapon Skill Rating, but that wouldn't require them to make this change. Very odd.
The best I can figure with WS is that it boosts your entire critical strike rating (talents, agility, etc) by .1% per point. At level 70, with enough critical strike rating to get 30% crit (assuming that's even realistic at level 70), that would be +1.4% crit I believe.. and I remember hearing that the +hit bonus to weapon skill was increased from .04 to .24 per point? If so that'd net you 1.2% hit. With the -dodge component included, I'd value Weapon Expertise it just slightly better than Malice/Dagger Spec per point. Except the wording implies it only effects mobs higher level than you..I'm still scratching my head over that one.
Really, the patch note is beyond vague -- it's incomprehensible. But even in this best-case scenario, it seems vastly underpowered for being a 25-point talent. I would still take it.. there's nothing else to put the 2 points in for pve damage in a 15/31/5 build, but I think this talent really needs to be reviewed. If I'm forced as Daggers to yet again ditch AR to get the highest sustained DPS build, I will feel the entire 1.12 patch was a waste.
How will warriors pull ahead of rogues again with 50% rage reduction?
What? I haven't seen any problem with rage generation so far in beta on my warrior.
Every other warrior in beta is posting everywhere they can find about the enormous rage generation nerf. Be interesting to hear an alternative point of view. How much of a reduction are you seeing, and how geared is your warrior?
Grats warriors pulling solidly ahead of rogues for dps though. The one good buff to the combat tree in the rogue patch just got completely wiped out.
ps. Is it just me or is weapon skills new role of adding crit just salt in the wound? I mean, its crit that only applies when fighting mobs 3 levels higher than you... with a 40% glance chance... So in all likelyhood your white damage is crit capped. So a point of weapon skill is +.1% crit, vs mobs that are 3+ levels above you, that only applies to yellow attacks. Fantastic.
Throw in the WS nerf basically killing sword/mace rogues and you get +.1% crit on an attack that already had 60-70% chance to crit?
I'm not really sure why you assume Warriors will significantly out-dps Rogues after the next patch. The reduction in white damage is the same for both Rogues and Warriors, but Warriors will also produce much less rage as a result. So the change will probably end up affecting Warriors more.
From what blizzard have described of the Rage normalisation, it *shouldn’t* be particularly noticeable in a solo situation with "average" gear. I haven't tested this myself, but the majority of reports I've read have suggested it does have a negative affect for the vast majority of Warriors. But in a raiding situation, with top quality gear and full raid buffs, there WILL be a significant reduction in rage. There is no question of this.
From my experience at least, Fury warrior DPS really only pulls ahead of Rogue DPS when there are heavy buffs or damage modifiers – the white dmg produced by Raid buffs results in more rage and more dmg. Rage normalisation seems to have been put in place specifically to taper off the PvE dmg of end-game Fury Warriors so I can't see how these changes will see Warriors pulling ahead of rogues.
Hell, if my rage generation in a solo situation remains more or less unchanged, and it simply puts my dps behind a similarly geared rogue in a raiding environment then I will consider the change a success. The picture being painted by the majority of Beta testers, however, is considerably grimmer though :(
On PTR, on my warrior, the only time I have significantly more rage than I expect to have is after crits. This is, of course, while soloing, so I'm sure in raids there will be a bit more scaling down from expected rage generation in live.
From the PTR 2.0 Patch Notes:
Weapon Skill now does the following:
- Weapon skill will no longer reduce the percentage damage lost due to
glancing.
- The player will gain 0.1% to their critical strike rating per weapon
skill against monsters above their level.
Wow, so weapon expertise really did replace throwing weapon specialization after all...
That is so amazingly bad I can't even figure out why they didn't just remove the talent.
I think it's ironic that if things really are as bleak with weapon skill as people are saying, the new throwing weapon itemization would probably make the old throwing weapon spec more useful to rogues while levelling than Weapon Expertise... it would let you pull mobs or hit runners from further away than you can with bows right, since you're now likely to actually have a throwing weapon worth using?
How will warriors pull ahead of rogues again with 50% rage reduction?
What? I haven't seen any problem with rage generation so far in beta on my warrior.
Every other warrior in beta is posting everywhere they can find about the enormous rage generation nerf. Be interesting to hear an alternative point of view. How much of a reduction are you seeing, and how geared is your warrior?
Well of course people are seeing rage problems. The first few instances aren't much harder than Stratholme and Scholomance - you can't go into them wearing raid gear and expect to have rage pouring out of your ears. Anyone I've grouped with on my rogue that has had appropriate gear for the instance has had more than enough rage to do their job. People in Dreadnaught? Not so much, but that should be expected, much the same you can't really do Stratholme in 8/9 Dreadnaught and a shield in your offhand and expect to have enough rage coming in to do anything.
My warrior isn't very geared anymore so that may be one of the reasons, but I also don't have spectacular weapons either and my rage generation hasn't been all that bad so far.
I have no idea what you are talking about, this isn't about Hellfire Ramparts.
The same attack that generates 15 rage in WoW only generates 10 rage in BC.
You can of course claim that this is not really noticable but I think everyone knows what would happen if rogues only generated 18 energy per tick.
I have no idea what you are talking about, this isn't about Hellfire Ramparts.
The same attack that generates 15 rage in WoW only generates 10 rage in BC.
You can of course claim that this is not really noticable but I think everyone knows what would happen if rogues only generated 18 energy per tick.
You're really trying to compare rage generation to energy regeneration? They're two entirely different mechanics and function differently. Rage generation is flat out broken in the live game right now, don't try to deny it at all. It's as broken as weapon skill is. But really, why are you bringing rage generation into a topic about weapon skill to begin with?
No I am not, but almost all warriors in beta say that we generate less rage and you say "well of course if you tank Hellfire Ramparts with T3", which is just as bad.
I am bringing it up because some rogues here already claim that warriors will seriously outdamage them due to the weapon skill change, not only ignoring that warriors also have lost +weapon skill but also the rage nerf.
Btw, the warrior specs that have way too much rage were hit the least with that nerf. 2h warriors who have less rage generation to begin with are now even more crippled. So while Rage may / may not have been bad, any 2h spec without Endless rage is now so rage-starved that it's hardly fun to play now.
The rage normalization in beta is very noticeable. I rarely have enough rage to HS (after BT/WW) while grinding, and I don't imagine I will on bosses either. On fights like Patchwerk HS can account for nearly 30% of my damage, so this is obviously very troubling to me.
To the point of this discussion (Weapon Skill nerf), has Blizzard made any comments about how they plan to account for all the lost melee DPS on boss fights in 2.0? I really hope they're not just going to 'wait and see' and then play damage control after the fact.
To the point of this discussion (Weapon Skill nerf), has Blizzard made any comments about how they plan to account for all the lost melee DPS on boss fights in 2.0? I really hope they're not just going to 'wait and see' and then play damage control after the fact.
Do you mean current end game Boss Fights in 2.0 or lvl 70 raid instance boss fights? If the former, well then I'm guessing "wait and see" or they hope new abilities will make up for it. For the latter, well they'll just tune the encounters with these changes in mind because they aren't even out yet.
No I am not, but almost all warriors in beta say that we generate less rage and you say "well of course if you tank Hellfire Ramparts with T3", which is just as bad.
I am bringing it up because some rogues here already claim that warriors will seriously outdamage them due to the weapon skill change, not only ignoring that warriors also have lost +weapon skill but also the rage nerf.
Btw, the warrior specs that have way too much rage were hit the least with that nerf. 2h warriors who have less rage generation to begin with are now even more crippled. So while Rage may / may not have been bad, any 2h spec without Endless rage is now so rage-starved that it's hardly fun to play now.
I personally know exactly how much the weapon skill change will impact warriors. It will impact them just as much as us - infact it'll fix an even sillier issue than Aged Core Leather Gloves, and that's the issue of those mail epic gloves being as good or superior to the gloves from C'Thun due to the +skill they give. Now obviously this isn't a good this for our damage output - it WILL suffer - both for rogues and warriors, but this is a needed change because it gets rid of problems like that.
No I am not, but almost all warriors in beta say that we generate less rage and you say "well of course if you tank Hellfire Ramparts with T3", which is just as bad.
I am bringing it up because some rogues here already claim that warriors will seriously outdamage them due to the weapon skill change, not only ignoring that warriors also have lost +weapon skill but also the rage nerf.
Btw, the warrior specs that have way too much rage were hit the least with that nerf. 2h warriors who have less rage generation to begin with are now even more crippled. So while Rage may / may not have been bad, any 2h spec without Endless rage is now so rage-starved that it's hardly fun to play now.
I personally know exactly how much the weapon skill change will impact warriors. It will impact them just as much as us - infact it'll fix an even sillier issue than Aged Core Leather Gloves, and that's the issue of those mail epic gloves being as good or superior to the gloves from C'Thun due to the +skill they give. Now obviously this isn't a good this for our damage output - it WILL suffer - both for rogues and warriors, but this is a needed change because it gets rid of problems like that.
Actually, +skill nerf affects rogues more. Rogues can get +10 skill whereas non-human/orc warriors cannot. Also, warriors have a skill called heroic strike which mitigates some glancing blows. This isnt to say that warriors will not feel the nerf, its just to say that rogues will feel a greater loss from this. Also, rogues have slightly more white dps due to better offhand damage and +haste.
I personally know exactly how much the weapon skill change will impact warriors. It will impact them just as much as us - infact it'll fix an even sillier issue than Aged Core Leather Gloves, and that's the issue of those mail epic gloves being as good or superior to the gloves from C'Thun due to the +skill they give. Now obviously this isn't a good this for our damage output - it WILL suffer - both for rogues and warriors, but this is a needed change because it gets rid of problems like that.
It has been said in this thread before, but it seems necessary to repeat it:
The problem you are mentioning is not a game mechanic problem, but an itemization problem. And what would the natural way to fix an itemization problem? Correct, adjust the itemization. If you can't do it retroactively, do it in BC.
There may be reasons why this change was warranted, but please stop using this stupid argument "Weapon Skill needed to be changed because otherwise Aged Core Leather Gloves and Edgemaster Handguards will continue to be used in Naxxramas.".
I personally know exactly how much the weapon skill change will impact warriors. It will impact them just as much as us - infact it'll fix an even sillier issue than Aged Core Leather Gloves, and that's the issue of those mail epic gloves being as good or superior to the gloves from C'Thun due to the +skill they give. Now obviously this isn't a good this for our damage output - it WILL suffer - both for rogues and warriors, but this is a needed change because it gets rid of problems like that.
It has been said in this thread before, but it seems necessary to repeat it:
The problem you are mentioning is not a game mechanic problem, but an itemization problem. And what would the natural way to fix an itemization problem? Correct, adjust the itemization. If you can't do it retroactively, do it in BC.
There may be reasons why this change was warranted, but please stop using this stupid argument "Weapon Skill needed to be changed because otherwise Aged Core Leather Gloves and Edgemaster Handguards will continue to be used in Naxxramas.".
As much as we want to deny it, because it sucks having a change like this happen after two years, it is a game mechanics problem.
The rage normalization in beta is very noticeable. I rarely have enough rage to HS (after BT/WW) while grinding, and I don't imagine I will on bosses either. On fights like Patchwerk HS can account for nearly 30% of my damage, so this is obviously very troubling to me.
To the point of this discussion (Weapon Skill nerf), has Blizzard made any comments about how they plan to account for all the lost melee DPS on boss fights in 2.0? I really hope they're not just going to 'wait and see' and then play damage control after the fact.
I have warrior alt, only level 40, but she's actually relevant to this at her level. When she was level 36 with WW axe, and had on a few blues and the rest good quality greens, she had the same kind of rage generation as what people are describing on beta. The rage I'm seeing now, and people saw as fresh 60s is obviously meant to be where they balanced warriors, and they foolishly didn't see what the mechanic would do when warriors gained crazy gear. Rage itself isn't nerfed, I'm not seeing anywhere that base rage generation is being nerfed, just that the bonus rage from having great gear is being nerfed. That's why I don't see why it has to be all doom and gloom, warriors have been fine in PVP since the reaper/valor days (or the TuF days after normalisation). Nerfed yes, and it remains to be seen what that does for PVE DPS, but I don't think we'll be seeing the death of the warrior anymore than we saw it back at normalisation.
The rage normalization in beta is very noticeable. I rarely have enough rage to HS (after BT/WW) while grinding, and I don't imagine I will on bosses either. On fights like Patchwerk HS can account for nearly 30% of my damage, so this is obviously very troubling to me.
To the point of this discussion (Weapon Skill nerf), has Blizzard made any comments about how they plan to account for all the lost melee DPS on boss fights in 2.0? I really hope they're not just going to 'wait and see' and then play damage control after the fact.
I have warrior alt, only level 40, but she's actually relevant to this at her level. When she was level 36 with WW axe, and had on a few blues and the rest good quality greens, she had the same kind of rage generation as what people are describing on beta. The rage I'm seeing now, and people saw as fresh 60s is obviously meant to be where they balanced warriors, and they foolishly didn't see what the mechanic would do when warriors gained crazy gear. Rage itself isn't nerfed, I'm not seeing anywhere that base rage generation is being nerfed, just that the bonus rage from having great gear is being nerfed. That's why I don't see why it has to be all doom and gloom, warriors have been fine in PVP since the reaper/valor days (or the TuF days after normalisation). Nerfed yes, and it remains to be seen what that does for PVE DPS, but I don't think we'll be seeing the death of the warrior anymore than we saw it back at normalisation.
Remember also that Tier 3 warriors tanking the entry level BC instances are doubly nerfed - first by the rage normalisation from weapon damage, and secondly from the fact that they're vastly over-armoured for the instance and thus taking less damage. Try tanking Scholo in full Dreadnaught and see if you have much rage - and that's even *before* rage normalisation.
I'm willing to bet they'd see their DPS go up if they left off some of their uber gear - and there's no way round that, it's just How Rage Works (TM).
I personally know exactly how much the weapon skill change will impact warriors. It will impact them just as much as us - infact it'll fix an even sillier issue than Aged Core Leather Gloves, and that's the issue of those mail epic gloves being as good or superior to the gloves from C'Thun due to the +skill they give. Now obviously this isn't a good this for our damage output - it WILL suffer - both for rogues and warriors, but this is a needed change because it gets rid of problems like that.
It has been said in this thread before, but it seems necessary to repeat it:
The problem you are mentioning is not a game mechanic problem, but an itemization problem. And what would the natural way to fix an itemization problem? Correct, adjust the itemization. If you can't do it retroactively, do it in BC.
There may be reasons why this change was warranted, but please stop using this stupid argument "Weapon Skill needed to be changed because otherwise Aged Core Leather Gloves and Edgemaster Handguards will continue to be used in Naxxramas.".
As much as we want to deny it, because it sucks having a change like this happen after two years, it is a game mechanics problem.
Would you mind providing arguments? What you stated in your original post clearly indicates an itemization problem.
Other classes have level based damage reduction (resists for mages and warlocks) and ways to counteract them (+% spell hit), why not melee classes as well?
11/14/06, 5:55 PM
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