Weapon Skill Bugged in Beta? - Page 13

Lank · 11/15/06, 10:01 PM

Originally Posted by pf

Actually, +skill nerf affects rogues more. Rogues can get +10 skill whereas non-human/orc warriors cannot. Also, warriors have a skill called heroic strike which mitigates some glancing blows. This isnt to say that warriors will not feel the nerf, its just to say that rogues will feel a greater loss from this. Also, rogues have slightly more white dps due to better offhand damage and +haste.

From white damage rogues get: Damage
From white damage warriors get: Rage (Yellow damage), Damage, Flurry

Who does this effect more again?

Valen · 11/15/06, 10:27 PM

Originally Posted by Lank

Originally Posted by pf

Actually, +skill nerf affects rogues more. Rogues can get +10 skill whereas non-human/orc warriors cannot. Also, warriors have a skill called heroic strike which mitigates some glancing blows. This isnt to say that warriors will not feel the nerf, its just to say that rogues will feel a greater loss from this. Also, rogues have slightly more white dps due to better offhand damage and +haste.

From white damage rogues get: Damage
From white damage warriors get: Rage (Yellow damage), Damage, Flurry

Who does this effect more again?

How does +skill change make a difference to your flurry up time? If anything, the new system allows more flurrys because of increased crit rate.

Koryk · 11/15/06, 10:41 PM

Originally Posted by Valen

How does +skill change make a difference to your flurry up time? If anything, the new system allows more flurrys because of increased crit rate.

Glancing blows can't crit.

Bliss · 11/15/06, 10:49 PM

Originally Posted by Koryk

Originally Posted by Valen

How does +skill change make a difference to your flurry up time? If anything, the new system allows more flurrys because of increased crit rate.

Glancing blows can't crit.

And weapon skill doesn't remove glancing blows, it just makes them hit for full damage.

Tzeni · 11/15/06, 10:51 PM

Originally Posted by Koryk

Originally Posted by Valen

How does +skill change make a difference to your flurry up time? If anything, the new system allows more flurrys because of increased crit rate.

Glancing blows can't crit.

+skill doesn't reduce the number of glancing blows you get.

Eitherway, arguing about who this affects more is fairly pointless.

Deathstorm · 11/15/06, 11:17 PM

Originally Posted by pf

Originally Posted by Kody

Originally Posted by TL-Seria

No I am not, but almost all warriors in beta say that we generate less rage and you say "well of course if you tank Hellfire Ramparts with T3", which is just as bad.

I am bringing it up because some rogues here already claim that warriors will seriously outdamage them due to the weapon skill change, not only ignoring that warriors also have lost +weapon skill but also the rage nerf.

Btw, the warrior specs that have way too much rage were hit the least with that nerf. 2h warriors who have less rage generation to begin with are now even more crippled. So while Rage may / may not have been bad, any 2h spec without Endless rage is now so rage-starved that it's hardly fun to play now.

I personally know exactly how much the weapon skill change will impact warriors. It will impact them just as much as us - infact it'll fix an even sillier issue than Aged Core Leather Gloves, and that's the issue of those mail epic gloves being as good or superior to the gloves from C'Thun due to the +skill they give. Now obviously this isn't a good this for our damage output - it WILL suffer - both for rogues and warriors, but this is a needed change because it gets rid of problems like that.

Actually, +skill nerf affects rogues more. Rogues can get +10 skill whereas non-human/orc warriors cannot. Also, warriors have a skill called heroic strike which mitigates some glancing blows. This isnt to say that warriors will not feel the nerf, its just to say that rogues will feel a greater loss from this. Also, rogues have slightly more white dps due to better offhand damage and +haste.

Don't be silly, at the end of a day a DW Fury warrior is going to be doing around 50% white damage and the same is true of a combat Rogue so generally we can say 50% of either classes overall damage is going to suffer the same loss. There are some specialist fights like Patchwerk and Loatheb where this isn't true for Warriors but two soon to be outdated fights do not set the standard. Personally I really couldn't care less who has it worse though.

suicuique · 11/16/06, 6:27 AM

Originally Posted by Tzeni

Originally Posted by Koryk

Originally Posted by Valen

How does +skill change make a difference to your flurry up time? If anything, the new system allows more flurrys because of increased crit rate.

Glancing blows can't crit.

+skill doesn't reduce the number of glancing blows you get.

You are not getting his argument.

wpn skill -> higher white damage ->more rage -> more Heroic strikes instead of autoattack

THESE heroic strikes CAN crit while the autoattacks they substituted had a crit cap (beacuse of glancing blows) -> EVENTUALLY higher effective crit rate

Altough I agree that this argument is quite insignificant, its valid :)

regards

TL-Seria · 11/16/06, 6:38 AM

Originally Posted by Kobal

Would you mind providing arguments? What you stated in your original post clearly indicates an itemization problem.

Other classes have level based damage reduction (resists for mages and warlocks) and ways to counteract them (+% spell hit), why not melee classes as well?

This isn't exactly true

+hit does the same as +spell hit, reduce resists / misses.

However, +skill reduces glancing blow damage loss. The caster glancing spell (partial resists despite 0 resistance) can not be overcome by anything.

Valen · 11/16/06, 6:45 AM

Originally Posted by suicuique

Originally Posted by Tzeni

Originally Posted by Koryk

Glancing blows can't crit.

+skill doesn't reduce the number of glancing blows you get.

You are not getting his argument.

wpn skill -> higher white damage ->more rage -> more Heroic strikes instead of autoattack

THESE heroic strikes CAN crit while the autoattacks they substituted had a crit cap (beacuse of glancing blows) -> EVENTUALLY higher effective crit rate

Altough I agree that this argument is quite insignificant, its valid :)

regards

How does weapon skill nerf change the % you crit with auto attacks? It can only raise it with new addition.

Also i can't see a warrior running around with 40% crit chance but no +hit. ;)

• sp00n · 11/16/06, 6:50 AM

How does weapon skill nerf change the % you crit with auto attacks? It can only raise it with new addition.

Not auto attack per se as suicuique has explained.
But due to higher damage on glancing blows and therefore higher rage, you can replace some auto attacks with heroic strikes, which do not suffer from the crit cap and glancing blows.

suicuique · 11/16/06, 6:54 AM

Originally Posted by Valen

How does weapon skill nerf change the % you crit with auto attacks? It can only raise it with new addition.

Also i can't see a warrior running around with 40% crit chance but no +hit. ;)

Easy:

Suppose DW Fury Warrior with +10hit (not too shabby), using dual crit stones he can easily get to 37% crit in zerk stance (no problem to achieve that)

Attacking from the front (there are many bosses like Cthun,Thaddius etc that you can not reliable attack from the back) you get

40% glancing + 15.6% miss + 5.6% dodge + 5.6% block + 5.6% parry = 72.4%

-> crit capped at 27.6% crit on autoattacks.

regards

Valen · 11/16/06, 8:48 AM

Originally Posted by suicuique

Originally Posted by Valen

How does weapon skill nerf change the % you crit with auto attacks? It can only raise it with new addition.

Also i can't see a warrior running around with 40% crit chance but no +hit. ;)

Easy:

Suppose DW Fury Warrior with +10hit (not too shabby), using dual crit stones he can easily get to 37% crit in zerk stance (no problem to achieve that)

Attacking from the front (there are many bosses like Cthun,Thaddius etc that you can not reliable attack from the back) you get

40% glancing + 15.6% miss + 5.6% dodge + 5.6% block + 5.6% parry = 72.4%

-> crit capped at 27.6% crit on autoattacks.

regards

Why would a fury warrior stand in front of the boss? I mean aside from 2-3 bosses you mentioned?

Edit: Now i realize this is not very constructive, but finding that rare situations that may or may not increase or decrease the flurry up time doesn't really change the big picture. When it comes to flurry, new system is a benefit actually, rather than a nerf.

Kody · 11/16/06, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by Kobal

Originally Posted by Kody

Originally Posted by Kobal

It has been said in this thread before, but it seems necessary to repeat it:

The problem you are mentioning is not a game mechanic problem, but an itemization problem. And what would the natural way to fix an itemization problem? Correct, adjust the itemization. If you can't do it retroactively, do it in BC.

There may be reasons why this change was warranted, but please stop using this stupid argument "Weapon Skill needed to be changed because otherwise Aged Core Leather Gloves and Edgemaster Handguards will continue to be used in Naxxramas.".

As much as we want to deny it, because it sucks having a change like this happen after two years, it is a game mechanics problem.

Would you mind providing arguments? What you stated in your original post clearly indicates an itemization problem.

Other classes have level based damage reduction (resists for mages and warlocks) and ways to counteract them (+% spell hit), why not melee classes as well?

As someone already stated below this, +% spell hit works similar to +% melee hit. It simply reduces the frequency of full resists, what you're thinking of is spell penetration, which would be a better comparison to weapon skill than chance to hit. That said, there are definitely still partial resists even with spell penetration and debuffs bringing the mob's resists to 0(one would assume anyway, I'm sure some mobs have varying resist values, Ouro for example).

So here's the problem: In current implementation, spell penetration does not negate the chance to be partially resisted fully like weapon skill negates damage loss on glancing blows.

Itemization issues aside, ACLG are a glaring example of how ridiculously powerful the current weapon skill mechanic is. Especially when a combination of tier 3 weapons and tier 3 gloves can't overcome the loss of the +5 skill on ACLG.

The obvious reason for this change was the expansion and the fact that if you stacked weapon skill in its current implementation, you could damage level 70 mobs at level 60, like you were level 66 or so. Obviously this is a bit of a stretch due to the sheer amount of +hit you would need, but you get the idea. Glancing blows are here to stay on anything above our level because it's the best way they can implement something with their combat system to keep people from killing mobs they shouldn't be killing.

Now... are TBC raid bosses going to use the skull system? A good test of this would be to get someone level 60 summoned in to Doom Lord Kazzak and see if the +3 rule works the other way around as well. If so, then there's an entirely different problem aside from weapon skill that they need to fix, because it could still be possible for people to kill mobs they shouldn't be killing.

Lank · 11/16/06, 11:13 AM

Did I miss something? How is it a benefit?
The 1% crit (wait, .72% and loss of +.28% dodge, (+.28% parry, +.28% block - situational) +.72% hit) I gain from changing out my edgemasters for those crappy zg ones?

Edit: It would be funny seeing a orc warrior kill a level 67 at lvl60.. (Goldminer's hat+ edgemasters+racial= +4.2 levels /lol)

pf · 11/16/06, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by Deathstorm

Don't be silly, at the end of a day a DW Fury warrior is going to be doing around 50% white damage and the same is true of a combat Rogue so generally we can say 50% of either classes overall damage is going to suffer the same loss. There are some specialist fights like Patchwerk and Loatheb where this isn't true for Warriors but two soon to be outdated fights do not set the standard. Personally I really couldn't care less who has it worse though.

The last time i was only 50% white damage was when I was a non-combat rogue. Naxx combat rogues run about 60-70% white damage. The change will hurt warriors, its just that due to talents and other factors, rogues will feel it slightly more.

Apate · 11/16/06, 12:03 PM

Can I make a small request that this thread veer away from rage normalization and Rogue vs. warrior "who got nerfed most" discussions?

I'm very interested in what the new benefits of +skill are, but it's becoming difficult to wade through this.

LadyVex · 11/16/06, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by Apate

Can I make a small request that this thread veer away from rage normalization and Rogue vs. warrior "who got nerfed most" discussions?

I'm very interested in what the new benefits of +skill are, but it's becoming difficult to wade through this.

Believe it is the same + hit as before, but now you get .4% crit chance per skill point for monsters +3 levels above you.

So +5 skill = 2% crit chance on a mob level +3.

(That's what I gathered from previous posts.)

TL-Seria · 11/16/06, 12:15 PM

I think 1 skill is now .1% more crit chance against enemies above your level = crap

Kody · 11/16/06, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by LadyVex

Originally Posted by Apate

Can I make a small request that this thread veer away from rage normalization and Rogue vs. warrior "who got nerfed most" discussions?

I'm very interested in what the new benefits of +skill are, but it's becoming difficult to wade through this.

Believe it is the same + hit as before, but now you get .4% crit chance per skill point for monsters +3 levels above you.

So +5 skill = 2% crit chance on a mob level +3.

(That's what I gathered from previous posts.)

There is some very conflicting info then, I've seen .1% for mobs above your level, as it currently give .04% for mobs your level or lower. It would seem silly to give ten times the benefit just because a mob is above your level.

pf · 11/16/06, 12:38 PM

Originally Posted by Apate

Can I make a small request that this thread veer away from rage normalization and Rogue vs. warrior "who got nerfed most" discussions?

I'm very interested in what the new benefits of +skill are, but it's becoming difficult to wade through this.

The way i read it is this.

+1skill = +0.04 crit +0.04 hit -0.04 dodge -0.04 parry -0.04 block

Any +skill over your level when attacking a mob > your level adds +.1 crit to the previous.

With this implementation, +skill is slightly better than +crit/hit itemization wise against higher lvl mobs which is what blizzard is aiming for. However, it falls short of +agi for rogues.

Glass · 11/16/06, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by pf

The last time i was only 50% white damage was when I was a non-combat rogue. Naxx combat rogues run about 60-70% white damage. The change will hurt warriors, its just that due to talents and other factors, rogues will feel it slightly more.

Agreed. Just for perspective, my typical raid white damage percentage hovers right around 69-70%. I'm not naxx geared either...

Uziel · 11/16/06, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by pf

The way i read it is this.

+1skill = +0.04 crit +0.04 hit -0.04 dodge -0.04 parry -0.04 block
.

Looks great but it should be .24 hit per +1 skill

Apate · 11/16/06, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by pf

Originally Posted by Apate

Can I make a small request that this thread veer away from rage normalization and Rogue vs. warrior "who got nerfed most" discussions?

I'm very interested in what the new benefits of +skill are, but it's becoming difficult to wade through this.

The way i read it is this.

+1skill = +0.04 crit +0.04 hit -0.04 dodge -0.04 parry -0.04 block

Any +skill over your level when attacking a mob > your level adds +.1 crit to the previous.

With this implementation, +skill is slightly better than +crit/hit itemization wise against higher lvl mobs which is what blizzard is aiming for. However, it falls short of +agi for rogues.

I wouldn't be surprised if +skill is not in it's final form. It may be that people need to move into a raid environment to collect some real data for developers to analyze.

Another question: has anyone compared the effects of +skill on even level vs. +1 vs. +2 vs. +3?

EDIT: possibly testing could be done on "Boss" level mobs also, since current content boss mobs are still appearing to be +3 for mechanics calculations, it is possible they they interact differently with +skill.

pf · 11/16/06, 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by Uziel

Originally Posted by pf

The way i read it is this.

+1skill = +0.04 crit +0.04 hit -0.04 dodge -0.04 parry -0.04 block
.

Looks great but it should be .24 hit per +1 skill

You are basing this off of old data that might or might not be changed now. Its all speculation until there is extensive testing (which would require a large sample set) or we get a post from someone like Chilton.

Rack · 11/16/06, 1:37 PM

Originally Posted by Lank

Edit: It would be funny seeing a orc warrior kill a level 67 at lvl60.. (Goldminer's hat+ edgemasters+racial= +4.2 levels /lol)

Don't forget dual-wielding Zulian Hackers http://www.thottbot.com/?i=51697.

I've been farming for the hat for weeks. 2 picks, many boots, no hat. :(