I'd actually prefer the strikethrough parry dodge block to be the main effect of +skill, since we can get both hit / crit from +crit and +hit aalready.
"The player will gain 0.1% to their critical strike rating per weapon skill against monsters above their level."
Am i wrong in thinking it could mean something like this (for a lvl 60)
0.1% of current total crit rating (exactly how much crit rating would this be at say lvl 60? lets say 300 assuming naxxesk gear and excluding +5crit from talents)
- so this would be 30 crit rating per weapon skill (about 2% crit)
Assuming human for swords '+10' (talent & racial) this results in +21% crit.
Which would (albeit looks overly large) possibly counter the glancing loss as if you have enough hit to enable the crit, you will not glance.
Its a hopeful thought but even after finally writing it down it would again make +weapon skill the superior choice added to the fact it scales so well with gear.
Ah well... Anyone tested their damage on a Live realm vs PTR yet?
Which would (albeit looks overly large) possibly counter the glancing loss as if you have enough hit to enable the crit, you will not glance.
Hmmmm? No amount of +hit or +crit or +skill will ever make you have less glancing blows, and glancing blows can't crit. For example, on our last Loatheb kill my white damage was ~40% glancing, ~10% miss/dodge/parry, ~50% crit, and 0% hit.
0.1% of current total crit rating (exactly how much crit rating would this be at say lvl 60? lets say 300 assuming naxxesk gear and excluding +5crit from talents)
- so this would be 30 crit rating per weapon skill (about 2% crit)
Assuming human for swords '+10' (talent & racial) this results in +21% crit.
Which would (albeit looks overly large) possibly counter the glancing loss as if you have enough hit to enable the crit, you will not glance.
You have an "off by 10 error." 0.1% = 0.001. So 0.1% of 300 CR = 0.001*300 = 3 CR per skill.
Which would (albeit looks overly large) possibly counter the glancing loss as if you have enough hit to enable the crit, you will not glance.
Hmmmm? No amount of +hit or +crit or +skill will ever make you have less glancing blows, and glancing blows can't crit. For example, on our last Loatheb kill my white damage was ~40% glancing, ~10% miss/dodge/parry, ~50% crit, and 0% hit.
Glancing blows have priority over crits and hits.
Well, no amount of weapon skill will ever make you have less glancing blows too. Weapon skill in its current form helps to avoid damage loss on glancing. +hit helps you to avoid crit cap and convert misses to crits.
So the basicly this thread can be condensed to....
a) +weapon skill does nothing to help reduce glancing blow damage.
b) No one yet knows what they did to +skill to keep it being the "best raid stat".
I doubt the Devs really understand how their game works for the most part, so I guess its time to go for some BF/BS gloves to replace my ACLG for the expansion =(.
You know, they COULD just leave it the heck alone and add the odd +1 dagger skill on some items and reduce other stats, and reduce ACLG to +2skill. Don't really understand this mentality of just nerfing the living crap out of it instead of itemizing better.
There is light at the end of the tunnel.
The only problem is, it's often an incoming train.
You know, they COULD just leave it the heck alone and add the odd +1 dagger skill on some items and reduce other stats, and reduce ACLG to +2skill. Don't really understand this mentality of just nerfing the living crap out of it instead of itemizing better.
I never understood this "the only problem with +skill is itemization" comment that people are throwing around. The problem with +skill is that it was many times stronger than other stats, point-for-point. Casters get +hit scattered on our items, yes, but it's not an overpowered stat that makes us wear a +hit item in any slot at the expense of anything else, even when we're under the cap (as nearly all casters are). You'll frequently see caster pass up a +hit in favor of some mix of other things of similar ilvl. That wasn't the case with +skill. When a stat like that exists, a change has to be made, beyond the way it's allocated onto items.
So the basicly this thread can be condensed to....
a) +weapon skill does nothing to help reduce glancing blow damage.
b) No one yet knows what they did to +skill to keep it being the "best raid stat".
I doubt the Devs really understand how their game works for the most part, so I guess its time to go for some BF/BS gloves to replace my ACLG for the expansion =(.
You know, they COULD just leave it the heck alone and add the odd +1 dagger skill on some items and reduce other stats, and reduce ACLG to +2skill. Don't really understand this mentality of just nerfing the living crap out of it instead of itemizing better.
I dont see it as a nerf to rogues/warriors, simply correcting a stat that was giving melee an unfair advantage on dps.
0.1% of current total crit rating (exactly how much crit rating would this be at say lvl 60? lets say 300 assuming naxxesk gear and excluding +5crit from talents)
- so this would be 30 crit rating per weapon skill (about 2% crit)
Assuming human for swords '+10' (talent & racial) this results in +21% crit.
Which would (albeit looks overly large) possibly counter the glancing loss as if you have enough hit to enable the crit, you will not glance.
You have an "off by 10 error." 0.1% = 0.001. So 0.1% of 300 CR = 0.001*300 = 3 CR per skill.
You know, they COULD just leave it the heck alone and add the odd +1 dagger skill on some items and reduce other stats, and reduce ACLG to +2skill. Don't really understand this mentality of just nerfing the living crap out of it instead of itemizing better.
I never understood this "the only problem with +skill is itemization" comment that people are throwing around. The problem with +skill is that it was many times stronger than other stats, point-for-point. Casters get +hit scattered on our items, yes, but it's not an overpowered stat that makes us wear a +hit item in any slot at the expense of anything else, even when we're under the cap (as nearly all casters are). You'll frequently see caster pass up a +hit in favor of some mix of other things of similar ilvl. That wasn't the case with +skill. When a stat like that exists, a change has to be made, beyond the way it's allocated onto items.
Then allow me to explain.
The stat IS very very powerful point for point. No one is arguing that. But the fact is, it allows rogues to currently keep up with mages/hunters on the DPS lists. I am one of few +10 dagger skill rogue in my guild (We have a horrible drop rate on ACLG). I am often the only rogue who keeps up with the uber mages/hunters on some fights.
Take that away and we lose what we are supposed to do best (an assumption based on the fact its the ONLY thing we do).
So, as everyone knows all items have a specific Ilevel. This Ilevel determines how many stat points an item can have. +weapon skill is powerful, but not treated as such when it comes to its points value. So make the armour more interesting. Give us some +skill items with piss poor stats, make the rogue choose to focus on wtf they want to do. Where is the problem in that?
So instead of
+24 stam
+35 agi
+10FR
legs, we can get...
+12 stam
+20 Agi
+10FR
+2 dagger skill
items. Its more INTERESTING, and it DOES solve the problem in a more enjoyable way than "Hey, this is a bit too powerful, so nevermind you have been used to it from the early days, lets just nerf the crap outta ya".
So Arawethion, hope this makes more sense now? And your closing statement :
When a stat like that exists, a change has to be made, beyond the way it's allocated onto items.
Is based on nothing. You CAN solve this issue by assigning +weapon skill a new ilvl stat value according to its current usefulness. Such as what they did with +defense. Simply make rogues suffer in other stats for it. It will keep balanced, and it will make higher raid rogue items with nice stats and a tiny bit of +skill that much more appealing.
And Anastazi:
I dont see it as a nerf to rogues/warriors, simply correcting a stat that was giving melee an unfair advantage on dps.
Of course you see no problem with this. You are not a rogue/warrior. Hunters do not get glancing blows.
Its strange that people argue its a fair nerf because now the other DPS classes who have 5x the utility of a rogue will now be able to out dps/even dps them in raids. How about... the lost rogue DPS will affect your raid as a whole? after this patch next time you wipe on patchwerk at 5%, blame this nerf. But nooooo, now Mr Utility Belt can be top DPS, AND pull, or AE, or Sheep, Trap, Attack from RANGE or do-something-other-than-just-dps.
As I have said, if items such as edgmasters and ACLG are too powerful, then lower the amount of +skill they have. Make it an actual choice for people if they wish to have nice stats or +weapon skill. THAT is an actual solution. It keeps people happy, it gives people the option to mix and match gear and it also gives the option of adding T6 with the occasion +weapon skill bonus instead of 5495793 stamina.
This nerf is unwarranted. Not only that, the promise that it will still be "the best stat point for point" has so far shown to be utter crap. Want to make it still the best stat point for point and keep it fair? then divide the number of +weapon skill points on every armour piece by 3 and THATS IT.
I don't think its possible to write this any clearer. Oh, and some people said that the DPS won't change so much, quite whining. If it won't change so much, why the nerf?
Itemize better!
**Edit*
I see you are complaining that specifically 1 point of weapon skill is too powerful. But why is that any different to.. 10 stamina? 20 agility? Just because it is "1 point" doesnt mean you cannot balance it by removing... 15str and 10stamina off an item. So if Aged Core Leather gloves were designed with +dagger skill being as useful as +2 agi per, keep the same stats and make it +1 weapon skill. I wouldn't complain. I KNOW the stat is too powerful. And as said 395703 times, add higher level armour which is more generous.
Also, TBC uses +weaponskill rating. This could be... 20 weaponskill rating for 1 skill point. Then just make it always a low number, but on a decent amount of rogue gear, so even Full T4 might have the equivalent of +2 weapon skill.
As I said, Itemization can solve this issue and NOT leave rogues feeling like they just got slapped with the nerf stick.
There is light at the end of the tunnel.
The only problem is, it's often an incoming train.
I'll say it once and I'll say it again: this was a raiding stat, pure and simple. It did not impact the pvp game at all. It did not disrupt class balance or prevent other people from having fun playing the game (unless of course, your sole focus the epeen meters). Unlike other dps stats this one impacted only raiding.
You look at the sustained dps thread on Patchwerk and it's not exactly like mages were hurting. In many cases rogues weren't miles ahead of them for dps.
Now you've:
1) Inroduced a pretty significant nerf to one of the most fragile, maintenance intensive classes in the game
2) Potentially upset dps class balance in raids to the point that several people are talking about re-rolling
3) Totally nullified a 25 point talent that was introduced to help balance out the raid game dps issues we were facing
I agree with Kink, the best approach was to just correct the items that were out there through the rating system.
Human rogues gained 6% more melee dmg than other races, if they used swords/maces, simply because they were human. That is an example of it being overpowered. Add in the fact it was under itemized, and you have an issue. Now, the simple fix to that was to nerf the human racials, but they went a more extreme route and nerfed a lot more than racials.
How significant is it? I dont see it as the end of the world as so many people are whining. I dont like the nerf, however, they removed 12% of our white dmg (IF and ONLY IF you had +10 skill), and put what looks to be an inconsequintial buff in its place. They are not removing a massive 30% of our dmg as some people have concluded, it is 12% of our white dmg, if we had +10 skill in the appropriate weapon.
Okay, I'm defining "itemization" to mean, "the way that a person designing items allocated stats onto it, given the ilvl of the item and the listed values of stats."
Be careful, I'm not saying that "+1 skill is too strong," which would be meaningless. I'm saying that a point of skill does too much more than other stats after being normalized for itemization values.
+1 skill added as much white DPS as 1.2% to hit (more, actually, because of the effect on miss/dodge/parry/block). A person making an item, however, was not choosing between a 1 skill and 1.2% hit. He was choosing between 1 hit and (4 or 5? I don't have a table handy) skill. That choice would propagate along to a player choosing between equal-ilvl items. That is not "interesting." It's degenerate.
A perfectly acceptable solution would have been to increase the cost of +skill, much like what was done with the defense nerf. If you call that a change of "itemization," then we're arguing semantics. Regardless of what you call it, however, it's a straight nerf to +skill, which, in some form or another, is precisely what was required.
EDIT: Not only that, it would make that problem far worse if they had started scattering +skill all over the place without a strong nerf. I don't know why so many people that's a solution. It would be a mess.
How significant is it? I dont see it as the end of the world as so many people are whining. I dont like the nerf, however, they removed 12% of our white dmg (IF and ONLY IF you had +10 skill), and put what looks to be an inconsequintial buff in its place. They are not removing a massive 30% of our dmg as some people have concluded, it is 12% of our white dmg, if we had +10 skill in the appropriate weapon.
You're right, I have no idea why a melee dps only class would be upset at losing 12% of thier damage in a raid, since it's the only thing they do. 12% of your damage is pretty inconsequential. The mind boggles.
I just want to know -why-. It makes no sense. Especially after they gave us a talent to get more of it. Really, it seems.. like someone either is overreacting to someone's hot button item of the day, or the Weapon Expertise talent was a reactionary move and this was their original goal with weapon skill.
I rolled a human intentionally for +5 skill, and this was before it was proven what it actually did. Hitting like I was 1 level higher just seemed like a good idea. Later on, I would be vindicated by the weapon skill knowledge burst. But, man.. it seems silly what they're doing now. Oh, no! Someone can kill a +3 faster! Someone not a hunter? They still won't have any problems doing it, I'd wager, especially as a beastmaster spec.
23:40:55> [Illidan Stormrage's] [Shear] was blocked by [Castille].
Regardless of what you call it, however, it's a straight nerf to +skill, which, in some form or another, is precisely what was required.
But what exactly is your reason for this "required" change? Other than the fact that you are a dps caster and a little biased.
Keep in mind this damage that you seem so willing to toss out the window because you don't have to deal with it, is accomplished by taking craploads of front-end damage simply because we are in melee/aoe range which is something we have to deal with and you don't.
I don't hear you calling for less damage to be taken by rogues, only that rogues need to deal less damage because we have one statistical advantage that doesn't affect your class at all. Can you do anything to make your points sound less like a whinge about your lack of an equivalent caster stat? Because I don't see it.
It's almost the equivalent of you stating that we shouldn't be able to auto attack because you don't have an auto attack cast.
They are not removing a massive 30% of our dmg as some people have concluded, it is 12% of our white dmg, if we had +10 skill in the appropriate weapon.
That 12% of damage is a big number when you translate it into dps though. If you assume a rogue is doing 650dps today, and 60% of his damage is coming from white damage, that comes out to a nerf of 47dps (a nerf of 7% to his total dps output or 60% of 12%). This is an extreme case, but it's not insignificant even if you scale down his dps and his skill.
In many cases, that 7% was the sole difference in dps between a rogue and a fire mage. E-peens aside, is it fair to say that mages and rogues should do about the same amount of damage given the other aspects each class brings to a raid? From a raid/class design perspective, is this going to cause huge disruptions? This is why a lot of rogues are scratching their heads and saying "woe is me" and contemplating a re-roll.
If you have 5 rogues that are similar to my example above, the raid now needs to pump out 84k more damage on patchwerk somehow (not even considering the fury warrior impacts). That's a big hurdle for a guild that isn't fully Nax geared yet.
I understand we aren't running an instance like Nax on day one of TBC and there's new buffs to consider, but it is still a pretty significant hit.
Regardless of what you call it, however, it's a straight nerf to +skill, which, in some form or another, is precisely what was required.
But what exactly is your reason for this "required" change? Other than the fact that you are a dps caster and a little biased.
Keep in mind this damage that you seem so willing to toss out the window because you don't have to deal with it, is accomplished by taking craploads of front-end damage simply because we are in melee/aoe range which is something we have to deal with and you don't.
I don't hear you calling for less damage to be taken by rogues, only that rogues need to deal less damage because we have one statistical advantage that doesn't affect your class at all. Can you do anything to make your points sound less like a whinge about your lack of an equivalent caster stat? Because I don't see it.
It's almost the equivalent of you stating that we shouldn't be able to auto attack because you don't have an auto attack cast.
Who said Rogue damage had to be nerfed? I didn't say anything of the sort. I said that the current functionality of +skill is a design error and needs to be fixed.
Independently of that, Rogue damage should be adjusted to whatever they think is the correct value, without any problematic mechanics.
They are not removing a massive 30% of our dmg as some people have concluded, it is 12% of our white dmg, if we had +10 skill in the appropriate weapon.
That 12% of damage is a big number when you translate it into dps though. If you assume a rogue is doing 650dps today, and 60% of his damage is coming from white damage, that comes out to a nerf of 47dps (a nerf of 7% to his total dps output or 60% of 12%). This is an extreme case, but it's not insignificant even if you scale down his dps and his skill.
In many cases, that 7% was the sole difference in dps between a rogue and a fire mage. E-peens aside, is it fair to say that mages and rogues should do about the same amount of damage given the other aspects each class brings to a raid? From a raid/class design perspective, is this going to cause huge disruptions? This is why a lot of rogues are scratching their heads and saying "woe is me" and contemplating a re-roll.
If you have 5 rogues that are similar to my example above, the raid now needs to pump out 84k more damage on patchwerk somehow (not even considering the fury warrior impacts). That's a big hurdle for a guild that isn't fully Nax geared yet.
I understand we aren't running an instance like Nax on day one of TBC and there's new buffs to consider, but it is still a pretty significant hit.
7% is a gross overestimate, I'm seeing less than 5% once you take into account the 24% reduction instead of 30%.
The reason it seems to be overpowered is it one of ( if not the only) stat that caps out so quickly in the current game. All you need is TEN POINTS, and thats it. 11 points is dedundant, and if you choose a certain race, you already get half of that goal. Every other stat does not cap out so quickly ( realisticaly, I think there probably is a cap for crit %, %hit for a dual wielder caps around 24%) but more agility/strength/AP/Stamina is never redundant.
Compare it to +DEFENSE gear. It takes somewhere around 440 Defense to make you practically immune to crits. This is a highly desireable stat for the tanking role. Why can weapon skill not also be a highly desireable stat for melee DPS? Once again, the problem is not the Weapon Skill itself, it is the amount of +skill items available, and the scale at which they work and the speed at which they cap out at. If +10 were not the goal for Weapon Skill, instead it was +100, and each point had a slightly more incremental benefit, do you think it would be considered overpowered then? AS it is now, for +Weapon Skill, its either you have it or you don't ( relatively speaking); there is not much in between. 0 Weapon Skill to 10 Weapon Skill is a very narrow range, further compunded by the fact that the itemization is terrible. I am pretty sure the +DEF would be considered over powered as well if +10 was all you needed and it was only found on one or two items. I see no problem with a stat that lowers glancing blows.
The problems is the availabilty of that stat and how much of it you need to cap its effectiveness. I magine if you need 100 Weapon Skill to equal what the current Weapon Skill of +10 does. It would be very possible to add 5 or 10 weapons skill to alot of melee DPS items , even as a set bonus perhaps, and by collecting alot of +skill items you would be able to mitigate most ( or all) glancing blows. Or if you so choose, you could go with only mitigating 80% of glancing blows, choosing not to get another 20 Weapon skill in favor of other stats (Stamina, AP, crit%)
I think by FAR the most infuriating thing about all of this that the last patch contained the rogue review, whereby weapons skill was explicitly added as a boost to DPS, yet one patch later it is being made completly useless. Are we to believe that Blizzard didnt understand what weapons skill does when they added the weapon expertise talent? I find that difficult to swallow. If it was so over powered, why give it a talent? Weapon Expertise was basically the saving grace of the rogue patch for PvE rogues, it was the most substantial DPS that I can ever remember rogues recieving, and all without affecting PvP. So why change it? To lazy to itemize? To much work to make the Weapon Skill stat in line with other stats? Completely changing what it does seems like a lazy man's cop out for fixing it to me.
The reason it seems to be overpowered is it one of ( if not the only) stat that caps out so quickly in the current game. All you need is TEN POINTS, and thats it.
No, it's overpowered because the marginal DPS gain is enormous. This is not a particularly good attempt to rationalize that away.
How significant is it? I dont see it as the end of the world as so many people are whining. I dont like the nerf, however, they removed 12% of our white dmg (IF and ONLY IF you had +10 skill), and put what looks to be an inconsequintial buff in its place. They are not removing a massive 30% of our dmg as some people have concluded, it is 12% of our white dmg, if we had +10 skill in the appropriate weapon.
You're right, I have no idea why a melee dps only class would be upset at losing 12% of thier damage in a raid, since it's the only thing they do. 12% of your damage is pretty inconsequential. The mind boggles.
Comprehension ftw. 12% of white dmg doesnt equal 12% of your dps. More like 5% after the glancing change comes into play.
11/16/06, 2:01 PM
Similar Threads
