Dual wielding classes still lose DPS to misses in reality. While its technically possible to get +25% hit, its not realistic considering some of the item choices you'd have to make. At best you're looking at 19-20% hit. So thats 5-6% white damage we're losing from misses PLUS ~5% white damage we're losing from dodges.
Excellent, I didn't know that, and now I'm jealous that if I have +17% spell hit, I will still miss 1% of the time. :)
But that's neither here nor there, because the reason I brought it up in the first place was to show that the +spell hit mechanic is not in any way analogous to +weapon skill.
If it was, +spell hit gear would reduce our "penalty from partial resists", but it doesn't. The tangent about the miss rate at the hit cap was a supplementing argument that lends more weight to my argument than it did before because of the 0% miss rate.
Whether it's an extra stat or not is irrelevant; I merely said i consider it to be one.
Casters have spell hit, spell crit, hunters have +hit, and +crit, and rogues/warriors have +hit, +crit, and weapon skill. You can't really say +dmg for casters is an additional stat because it merely does what str/agi do for melee classes.
In this instance, a melee class is technically itemizing for 3 very important stats, besides their raw attributes.
Extra in it being something they can do as a little oomph? Well no, but extra as in it's one more thing they have to worry about when looking for dps gains.
Either this is unintended, they've royally screwed up class balance, or there's a mechanic they still need to implement to balance it out.
Or they're lowering how much +skill effects DPS down to the level it should be based on itemization and racial abilities, then changing the talent trees. It isn't like this is something that hit the live servers after a minor patch. It's the beta and things are in a state of flux.
Like I said, +spellhit gear is the counterpart to +skill. In both cases, a purely level-based 12% differential is observed. The 5% base vs equal level mobs is actually probably the counterpart to dodge damage reduction.
Maybe that's what they're trying to change. From what I can tell in Beta, the following is true against +3 mobs:
Melee:
16.8% to "miss" (via miss/dodge/parry; can be reduced via +hit and +weapon skill)
9.6% damage reduction via glancing (40% to glance for 76% damage, not 70% like in Live; can't be reduced)
Magic:
17% miss (can be reduced to 1% via +spell hit)
6% damage reduction via level-based partial resists (can't be reduced)
The above should be workable as long as they boost weapon skill's ability to lessen the opponent's chance to dodge/parry/block. It still screws the Rogues that way (Weapon Expertise and Surprise Attack in the same tree), but oh well...
Like I said, +spellhit gear is the counterpart to +skill. In both cases, a purely level-based 12% differential is observed. The 5% base vs equal level mobs is actually probably the counterpart to dodge damage reduction.
Maybe that's what they're trying to change. From what I can tell in Beta, the following is true against +3 mobs:
Melee:
16.8% to "miss" (via miss/dodge/parry; can be reduced via +hit and +weapon skill)
9.6% damage reduction via glancing (40% to glance for 76% damage, not 70% like in Live; can't be reduced)
Magic:
17% miss (can be reduced to 0 via +spell hit)
6% damage reduction via level-based partial resists (can't be reduced)
The above should be workable as long as they boost weapon skill's ability to lessen the opponent's chance to dodge/parry/block. It still screws the Rogues that way (Weapon Expertise and Surprise Attack in the same tree), but oh well...
ooooooh, so you're saying I can get 100% hit chance with spells in TBC? This is revolutionary news if so.
No, +hit is. Glancing blows are our level based damage reduction. A 17% spell miss rate is yours. Haven't you ever wondered about the commonality of certain numbers?
40% of swings, a 30% reduction on those swings. 12% lost from 60 to 63.
5% miss rate on equal level targets. 17% on +3s. 12% lost.
Funny, isn't it? Melee comes out ahead because glancing only affects white damage, but then again, casters don't have to deal with armor (the equivalent would be resist, if mobs actually had any real resist, which they don't).
But wait, +skill is way cheaper to an items budget than +hit%, and you need less to cap it. It seems the only problem is it doesn't actually appear on items, otherwise it's leaps and bounds ahead of the caster version.
Like I said, +spellhit gear is the counterpart to +skill. In both cases, a purely level-based 12% differential is observed. The 5% base vs equal level mobs is actually probably the counterpart to dodge damage reduction.
Maybe that's what they're trying to change. From what I can tell in Beta, the following is true against +3 mobs:
Melee:
16.8% to "miss" (via miss/dodge/parry; can be reduced via +hit and +weapon skill)
9.6% damage reduction via glancing (40% to glance for 76% damage, not 70% like in Live; can't be reduced)
Magic:
17% miss (can be reduced to 0 via +spell hit)
6% damage reduction via level-based partial resists (can't be reduced)
The above should be workable as long as they boost weapon skill's ability to lessen the opponent's chance to dodge/parry/block. It still screws the Rogues that way (Weapon Expertise and Surprise Attack in the same tree), but oh well...
ooooooh, so you're saying I can get 100% hit chance with spells in TBC? This is revolutionary news if so.
Last night in Naxxramas Mr. Bigglesworth resisted my taunt before we went to 4H. ;_;
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No, +hit is. Glancing blows are our level based damage reduction. A 17% spell miss rate is yours. Haven't you ever wondered about the commonality of certain numbers?
40% of swings, a 30% reduction on those swings. 12% lost from 60 to 63.
5% miss rate on equal level targets. 17% on +3s. 12% lost.
Funny, isn't it? Melee comes out ahead because glancing only affects white damage, but then again, casters don't have to deal with armor (the equivalent would be resist, if mobs actually had any real resist, which they don't).
But wait, +skill is way cheaper to an items budget than +hit%, and you need less to cap it. It seems the only problem is it doesn't actually appear on items, otherwise it's leaps and bounds ahead of the caster version.
Theoretically, yes, the cheaper budgeting on + Skill gear would make it a great trade off for melee. In practice melee winds up using what would be otherwise totally subpar gear just to scratch out a few points of + Skill, whereas caster itemization is such that they can get their needed + Spell Hit % and still get some other utility on the same item.
Like I said, +spellhit gear is the counterpart to +skill. In both cases, a purely level-based 12% differential is observed. The 5% base vs equal level mobs is actually probably the counterpart to dodge damage reduction.
Maybe that's what they're trying to change. From what I can tell in Beta, the following is true against +3 mobs:
Melee:
16.8% to "miss" (via miss/dodge/parry; can be reduced via +hit and +weapon skill)
9.6% damage reduction via glancing (40% to glance for 76% damage, not 70% like in Live; can't be reduced)
Magic:
17% miss (can be reduced to 1% via +spell hit)
6% damage reduction via level-based partial resists (can't be reduced)
The above should be workable as long as they boost weapon skill's ability to lessen the opponent's chance to dodge/parry/block. It still screws the Rogues that way (Weapon Expertise and Surprise Attack in the same tree), but oh well...
Ouch! That'd put me at a base miss rate of 41% dual wielding against a target 3 levels higher than me? +skill would have to add more than +1% to hit to catch me up to my hit rates today.
Also, afaik surprise attacks is only on our instant attacks, which occur once every 4 seconds at most.
edit: Weaponskill looks way too cheap when looking at dps on a mob 3 levels above you. Take a look at it sometime against an even con mob or player, then the values make more sense. That makes it a highly situational benefit unlike hit/crit which also impact pvp.
Hopefully this is part of what they're looking at in the "dps balancing" going on at the moment, because it is pretty ugly from a rogue's point of view.
Dual wielding classes still lose DPS to misses in reality. While its technically possible to get +25% hit, its not realistic considering some of the item choices you'd have to make. At best you're looking at 19-20% hit. So thats 5-6% white damage we're losing from misses PLUS ~5% white damage we're losing from dodges.
It's pretty easy (for a Naxx rogue, anyway) to get 25% +hit without gimping anything else.
EDIT: and that's 5% overall damage lost to dodge, btw, not just white damage. Specials get dodged, too.
I could swap out the Ring of the Qiraji Fury for a Band of Accuria, and I could (and have been trying like hell) to get a Crossbow of Imminent Doom. That'd bring me up to 20.4% hit, now where would I get the other 5% exactly?
Im sitting at 35% crit, 1140 ap, and 19% hit. While I could get + hit on my ranged weapon, which Ive been trying, that doesnt put me at an easy 25% hit. I only have 4 piece bonescythe atm, but most my other gear has +hit. Id love to see an "easy" way to hit 25% +hit.
I could swap out the Ring of the Qiraji Fury for a Band of Accuria, and I could (and have been trying like hell) to get a Crossbow of Imminent Doom. That'd bring me up to 20.4% hit, now where would I get the other 5% exactly?
Well,
Striker's Mark/CoID
Puissant Cape/Cloak of the Scourge/Cloak of Concentrated Hatred
Band of Accuria/Master Dragonslayer's Ring
Belt of Never-ending Agony
Kingsfall/Maexxna's Fang/DoVS/Pugio
Bloodfang Bracers/Qiraji Execution Bracers
I guess I probably should have said 'dagger rogue', but that's just 2% +hit in those slots. I wouldn't worry too much about the 6pc BS bonus. -8 threat per SS/BS is hardly worth it.
EDIT: Typo, it's -8% threat, sorry. Which is like 2.3% when you take into consideration our passive 29% threat reduction.
Ranged: slight upgrade, but there are better options without hit
Back: all downgrades
Rings: sidegrades, (best combo has 2% hit total)
Belt: sidegrade for swords
Weapons: The only upgrades for that spec have 0% hit
Bracers: downgrades
Are you suggesting he should use inferior gear to reach 25% hit?
Excellent, I didn't know that, and now I'm jealous that if I have +17% spell hit, I will still miss 1% of the time. :)
But that's neither here nor there, because the reason I brought it up in the first place was to show that the +spell hit mechanic is not in any way analogous to +weapon skill.
If it was, +spell hit gear would reduce our "penalty from partial resists", but it doesn't. The tangent about the miss rate at the hit cap was a supplementing argument that lends more weight to my argument than it did before because of the 0% miss rate.
Wrong, AGAIN.
You keep making this flawed comparison. Partial resists are NOT your glancing mechanic; they're most closely equivalent to the increased miss/dodge/parry and reduced crit rate melee experience on +level targets.
Glancing damage reduction is most closely equivalent to spell full resists. Both show a similar intention of loss (12% for +3 levels), both show a capping effect wherein it's valuable to a point and then essentially worthless, and both are really only useful for raiding (+hit is useful to a very small extent vs. even con mobs, but only a small amount of it). The main difference is that one is itemized, and one isn't.
At any rate, we're way off track. +skill is stupid because it isn't itemized; not for any other reason. Changing the mechanic so it doesn't reduce glancing is also stupid, and an unneeded change when rogue DPS is already looking kinda sad in comparison to mage DPS. Yes, I'm worried it isn't a bug, and no, if it goes in, I don't expect any compensation; as Wodin pointed out, we didn't get compensated for getting screwed on normalization.
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
I'd hope to assume this is a bug, but if not, here is a doomsday thought for you.
Do the results thus far support a hypothesis that blizzard is trying to slow the rate with which combat rogues deal white dmg? This being a strange and misguided attempt to make non-combat builds more raid viable? ie they could think that if yellow dmg is more of our over all dmg output % then we're better off? (which we are obviously not)
You keep making this flawed comparison. Partial resists are NOT your glancing mechanic; they're most closely equivalent to the increased miss/dodge/parry and reduced crit rate melee experience on +level targets.
But what if their INTENT is to make glancing mechanic same as partial resists? The level-based resists can't be reduced at all, and in Beta, it's the same way for glancing blows. Like I pointed out earlier, the damage reduction is now 9.6% (24% reduction 40% of the time) instead of 12% (30% reduction 40% of the time), and if what someone pointed out earlier is correct (about 60% of Rogue DPS comes from white damage), overall effect of this new mechanic is 6% decrease in overall damage. Same as magic.
That, more than anything, makes this seem like an intentional change.
Not that this is necessarily a good change, but if they tweak +weapon skill to be more worthwhile (decrease opponent's chance to dodge/parry/block more significantly), I don't see this as a bad thing either.
You keep making this flawed comparison. Partial resists are NOT your glancing mechanic; they're most closely equivalent to the increased miss/dodge/parry and reduced crit rate melee experience on +level targets.
But what if their INTENT is to make glancing mechanic same as partial resists? The level-based resists can't be reduced at all, and in Beta, it's the same way for glancing blows. Like I pointed out earlier, the damage reduction is now 9.6% (24% reduction 40% of the time) instead of 12% (30% reduction 40% of the time), and if what someone pointed out earlier is correct (about 60% of Rogue DPS comes from white damage), overall effect of this new mechanic is 6% decrease in overall damage. Same as magic.
That, more than anything, makes this seem like an intentional change.
Not that this is necessarily a good change, but if they tweak +weapon skill to be more worthwhile (decrease opponent's chance to dodge/parry/block more significantly), I don't see this as a bad thing either.
Considering casters don't suffer an additional inherent 5.6% reduction (dodge), don't have to worry about armor (in theory, resists, but whatever splash mobs have seems to be pretty much uniformly taken care of by CoE/CoS), and don't have to be in melee range... I do think it's a bad thing.
Oh, that and they don't suffer the crit-cap effect melee does. Partially resisted spells can still crit, I believe. Glanced blows can't.
I don't necessarily trust the reduction numbers to be matching intent or actual, incidentally.
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
Considering casters don't suffer an additional inherent 5.6% reduction (dodge), don't have to worry about armor (in theory, resists, but whatever splash mobs have seems to be pretty much uniformly taken care of by CoE/CoS), and don't have to be in melee range... I do think it's a bad thing.
9.6% reduction on white damage via glancing (which amount to roughly 6% reduction on overall damage) vs. 6% reduction on all spells via partial resists.
22.4% "miss" rate (5.6% miss/dodge/parry/block each; goes down to 11.2 with positioning; can be reduced with gear) vs. 17% resist rate (can only be reduced by gear).
There's the dual-wield penalty, but that's to balance out the difference between 2H and 2 1H, so that's a separate issue. So what else is there? I don't really see the big disparity.
The way glancing blows work currently has an inherent problem: since the frequency of glancing blows can't be reduced they would fill in too large portion of hit table against +5 or +6 mobs.
If the expansion plans to introduce all bosses as effective level 73 then many class/spec combinations can expect to fairly quickly reach a cap on +hit (as well as weapon skill). While gear progression would still be there this particular stat would not need to scale up anymore until next expansion. This just seems like a poor design decision when they can instead right now change the way hit, glances etc. work against higher level targets and then actually upgrade boss effective levels to 74, 75 etc. and thus keep throwing in more and more +hit +skill etc. These stats are also very good to throw on PvE sets since that enforces PvP/PvE set separation which Blizzard seems to be pushing for (resilience for PvP, +hit +skill for PvE).
Everything except glancing blows and level based partial resists can be overcome with existing itemization - it stands to reason that these mechanics might get reworked such that mob levels can be allowed to progress past +3.
It is also my gut feeling that mobs +6 or +7 as I've been forced to fight in the beta dodge/parry a lot more than vanilla wow formulas would predit which might imply that weapon skill would be used to combat not so much glancing blows but dodges. But this is purely speculative.
Considering casters don't suffer an additional inherent 5.6% reduction (dodge), don't have to worry about armor (in theory, resists, but whatever splash mobs have seems to be pretty much uniformly taken care of by CoE/CoS), and don't have to be in melee range... I do think it's a bad thing.
9.6% reduction on white damage via glancing (which amount to roughly 6% reduction on overall damage) vs. 6% reduction on all spells via partial resists.
22.4% "miss" rate (5.6% miss/dodge/parry/block each; goes down to 11.2 with positioning; can be reduced with gear) vs. 17% resist rate (can only be reduced by gear).
There's the dual-wield penalty, but that's to balance out the difference between 2H and 2 1H, so that's a separate issue. So what else is there? I don't really see the big disparity.
Er.
Armor giving me a 10% reduction in damage vs. CoE/CoS giving you a 10% boost? Kinda a big difference, there.... and you're ignoring the whole range thing. Not that I don't like getting stomp-cleaved into oblivion on Patchwerk trash and all, but when I'm at Patchwerk with 70% durability left and the casters haven't taken a hit yet, I think I'm right in asking that my mechanics not screw me.
Again, this thread really isn't about caster vs. melee mechanics. It's about the rampant stupidity of removing the ability of +skill to reduce glancing without compensation, which no melee class really expects to see, when melee is already only marginally better than caster DPS.
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
If the expansion plans to introduce all bosses as effective level 73 then many class/spec combinations can expect to fairly quickly reach a cap on +hit (as well as weapon skill). While gear progression would still be there this particular stat would not need to scale up anymore until next expansion.
Which is why they introduced hit rating, weapon skill rating, crit rating, etc....
If the expansion plans to introduce all bosses as effective level 73 then many class/spec combinations can expect to fairly quickly reach a cap on +hit (as well as weapon skill). While gear progression would still be there this particular stat would not need to scale up anymore until next expansion.
Which is why they introduced hit rating, weapon skill rating, crit rating, etc....
Uh, what's that got to do with this?
10 hit rating for 1% hit at level 60, I suppose we could throw around 20 hit rating for 2% hit at 70. That still means that 8.6% hit is reached at around 170 hit rating and beyond that it would be useless, no?
10/26/06, 5:20 PM
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