You have don't understand ratings. How it works is at 70, it takes more rating to give the same benefit as you got had it at 60. So while around 10 hit rating gives 1 to hit at 60, the same 10 hit rating gives like .5 or .75 hit at 70 (the in-game UI tells you what is gives, so you don't need to know the formula).
I'm fully aware of this but I repeat: what does it have to do with the argument I was presenting?
There is a cap beyond which point hit rating will be useless assuming effective mob levels never go past 73 (before next expansion). There are similar caps for weapon skill ratings, defence ratings and spell hit ratings. Rating system has nothing to do with this since rating merely depends on level. The fact that effective level specific cap exists is the issue, not ratings.
Your argument is pointless because you are making a very wrong assumption.
Could you extrapolate on that? Are you saying that you have definite information that boss mobs will have effective levels in excess of 73 in the expansion?
Nonetheless I don't see how the wrongness of that assumption substracts value to the argument being made. All I'm saying that is that in such an environment the listed stats have effective cap values beyond which they do nothing. And I still claim that such cap values are not necessarily a good thing.
I'm also saying that unless there are changes to glancing blow mechanics then boss levels simply cannot be allowed to scale much past +3 because glancing blows would soon threaten to push off crits from the combat table (while normal white hits would all but disappear).
There's a spell, or an item, or some such that I saw on a website the other day. I believe it was taken right from the beta server, but it has an effect that says something like: Works less reliably on level 80 targets.
Actually, NM I remember what it was.
A new gnomish net or some such. It works up to 35 yards away, holds the target for 3 seconds, and says: Works less reliably on targets that are level 80.
Slightly off-topic but as weapon dmg goes, if we're level 70 and weapon skill matters that much, you're going to have to gather *that* much more.
It's a pretty good argument for them changing how glancing bows and +weapon skill works. I would assume in it's current form it would be pretty awful if it remained how it was and we had mobs level 80 or above.
It's also possible it's a typo, and maybe it should say targets greater than level 60 or some such, but then considering the skill level you need to use it, it wouldn't make much sense.
Well, Mind Soothe also currently reads it works on targets up to level 70, and has done so for as long as I can remember. Yet we're not currently seeing any mobs with a level above 63 in retail ;)
It's just a generic description, if you look at the bombs from engineering on beta Thottbot you'll notice they also have the "Works reliably on target up to level X.", the highest items simply have a level way above what we can expect to see to make sure they work against everything they're supposed to work against.
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Well, Mind Soothe also currently reads it works on targets up to level 70, and has done so for as long as I can remember. Yet we're not currently seeing any mobs with a level above 63 in retail ;)
It's just a generic description, if you look at the bombs from engineering on beta Thottbot you'll notice they also have the "Works reliably on target up to level X.", the highest items simply have a level way above what we can expect to see to make sure they work against everything they're supposed to work against.
That's true, but it isn't just a spell; it's either a dropped item or a made item so it just seems to point out higher level mobs (but only because of the weapon skills change.)
Like I said, it could mean nothing but it's also possible it does mean something and then people will *want* a weapons skill change. )
9.6% reduction on white damage via glancing (which amount to roughly 6% reduction on overall damage) ...
40% glancing with a 24% dmg reduction does not reduce white damage by (just) 9.6% in all scenarios.
Glancing blows CANT crit. This can be significant. So significant, that for a fury warrior it's sometimes pointless to apply crit stones as they will be already (realistically) critcapped.
eg Thaddius who you will face from the front half the time (assuming +15 hit gear):
5.6% dodge + 5.6% parry + 5.6% block + 9.6% miss + 40% glance = 66.4% meaning you are crit capped at 33.6 %.
Assuming a 35% crit and +15% hit and attacking from the front, you would do
(nonglancing DmgCoefficient) 0.35*2+0.386*1=1.086
(glancing DmgCoefficient) 0.336*2+0.4*.76=0.976
i.e. 10.1% reduction in white damage.
But the higher your crit rate, the greater the loss. As an extreme example consider Loatheb (+50% crit buff) and attacking from the back.
(nonglancing DmgCoefficient) 0,848*2=1.696
(glancing DmgCoefficient) 0.448*2+0.4*0.76=1.2
resulting in a whopping 29.2% dmg loss in white damage just from the glancing mechanic.
(neglecting the very minor loss of less flurries in all cases)
regards
They could work around the current crit cap by allowing glancing blows to crit. Probably causes some problems for the current "one-table" melee combat system, but it would make things somewhat equal between how magic damage and physical damage affect higher level mobs.
Ok sorry, may have been a little off the mark with 'most'
However, it exists in game on a number of items and in a number of spell descriptions. If i had access to more than 3 websites (behind work irewall at the mo) i could probably dig up more examples, but i remember reading not long ago about a number of items and spells with 'works on creatures up to lvl 70' type desciptions.
Sorry for the vague response, am very information limited here. But i dont really see how you can argue that it indicates we'll have mobs up to lvl 80 in game when we have it in current spell descriptions and we have no mobs 'up to lvl 70' (or indeed over 63) at the mo.
Because it's more than just spells, and the items say "unreliable against monsters higher than level 80", not just level 80.
It just isn't a very common practice in live WoW atm, but some of the stuff in beta seems to be listed this way.
There's already reports that Vashj and Illidan will be higher than 74/75 (rumors to be sure, but still) and I think with the way TBC has of changing alot of stuff, it's possible level concepts are too.
I just thought it something interesting. You've got to admit it is kinda a odd coincidence that we're seeing several more items listed this way at about the same time things like glancing blows seem to be changing. :p
Everything is still pretty up in the air. It could be a bug, and the listings could just be there in case they ever decide to add higher level mobs.
Although, what would a hard level 70 dungeon look like with mob levels? What level was a hard 62 dungeon or are there none?
9.6% reduction on white damage via glancing (which amount to roughly 6% reduction on overall damage) ...
40% glancing with a 24% dmg reduction does not reduce white damage by (just) 9.6% in all scenarios.
You're missing the context of that statement. It was meant to be comparative:
Originally Posted by Liand
Like I pointed out earlier, the damage reduction is now 9.6% (24% reduction 40% of the time) instead of 12% (30% reduction 40% of the time)
In Beta, without ANY +weapon skill, everyone's melee damage went up against higher-level mobs, because glancing blows reduce less than in Live. Sure, there are cases where it's higher than 9.6% reduction in Beta. But then, in those cases, it's higher than 12% reduction in Live too.
So, I gained 2.4%, but have no way of gaining the other 9.6% I used to be able to gain.
Incidentally, if I had to choose one part of the glancing equation to be reduced, it would have been frequency, not amount.
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That said, a hunter on my guild forums brought up a good point.
They could make weapon skill vastly more useful by using (weapon skill / 5) in the armor mitigation calculations. Currently, the amount of mitigation on a strike is determined by your target's armor and your level. If they changed that so that mitigation was determined by your target's armor and your weapon skill / 5 (so, +10 would be +2 levels), then it would mean that the attacker would effectively be bypassing armor mitigation by increasing his weapon skill, and it'd be useful in PVE and PVP to boot!
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As there are rumours floating around that weapon skill got nerfed, i just wanted to let you know that i found a spot with indefinite lvl70 mob spawns and that i did some parsing with 0/2 we, 1/2 we, 2/2 we and 2/2 we + maladath to see whats up with it.
Some info on the test area:
in front of the auchindoun instance "Shadow labyrinth" is an event of respawning lvl 68-70 mobs. these are stopped by 3 npcs and tanked/dps'd so you can do some nice auto-attack samples from the back of a lvl 70 mob.
char stats: about 20% crit, 170 hit rating (12.65% vs lvl67). 1100 ap
Test 1 (334 skill)
0/2 WE (334 skill, i am a sword rogue, dont ass me ;)), Perditions Blade(+5), The Stalker's Fang (closer dmg range then my cts + maladath ;) )
Total Swings: 955
Hits: 200 (20.94%) for 23285 (121.43avg)
Crits: 143 (14.97%) for 35898 (251.03 avg)
Glanc: 393 (41.15%) for 34933 dmg (88.89 avg)
miss: 218 (22.83%)
White dmg lost: 12787 (11.85%)
(the miss looks weird, will redo this one, if i find some free time)
Test 2 (338 skill)
1/2 WE (335+3 skill, yes i pushed the 1 point for accuracy...), Perditions Blade(+5), The Stalker's Fang
Total Swings: 992
Hits: 241 (24.29%) for 29817 dmg (123.72 avg)
Crits: 165 (16.63%) for 41005 dmg (248.52 avg)
Glanc: 398 (40.12%) for 37615 dmg (94.51 avg)
miss: 176 (17.74%)
White dmg lost: 11626 (9.68%)
Test 3 (340 skill)
2/2 WE (335+5 skill), Perditions Blade(+5), The Stalker's Fang
Total Swings: 1015
Hits: 293 (28.87%) for 36669 dmg (125.15 avg)
Crits: 185 (18.23%) for 46828 dmg (253.12 avg)
Glanc: 410 (40.39%) for 38552 dmg (94.03 avg)
miss: 127 (12.51%)
White dmg lost: 12759 (9.46%)
Test 4 (342 skill)
2/2 WE (335+5+2), CTS (crusader), Maladath (+2 sword skill @ 67)
Total Swings: 1017
Hits: 314 (30.88%) for 53535 dmg (170.49 avg)
Crits: 159 (15.63%) for 53683 dmg (337.63 avg)
Glanc: 403 (39.63%) for 50362 dmg (124.97 avg)
miss: 139 (13.67%)
white dmg lost: 18346 (10.43%)
strange result :?
Disclaimer: You may repost these results on other boards as long as you give credit to Daemona of For The Horde (EU-Destromath)
The results seem strange because your samples are not large enough. I have seen samples of 8000+ hits and the sample size still being to low to be accurate.
Edit: It seems that the numbers atleast imply that weapon skill affects hit and crit abit more then it used to. Also appears to jump at 240->242 skill.
Thanks for collecting the data, by what you wrote, it seems weapon skill just increases hit/crit by much more than the current 0.04% per point, and does nothing to reduce glancing blows.
That would imply that weapon skill is useful against similar level mobs much more than it is currently, but maybe a little underpowered against +3 level creatures.
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The results seem strange because your samples are not large enough. I have seen samples of 8000+ hits and the sample size still being to low to be accurate.
well taking these samples already took more then 4 hours. perhaps i will try to increase the sample size for test4 sometime. but as the spot spawns lvl 68, 69 and 70 mobs, its kinda annoying to stare at the screen waiting to see a lvl 70 spawn or cursing as 3 spawn at the same time and you can only hit 1 or 2 and the other is dps'd by the NPCs
The results seem strange because your samples are not large enough. I have seen samples of 8000+ hits and the sample size still being to low to be accurate.
well taking these samples already took more then 4 hours. perhaps i will try to increase the sample size for test4 sometime. but as the spot spawns lvl 68, 69 and 70 mobs, its kinda annoying to stare at the screen waiting to see a lvl 70 spawn or cursing as 3 spawn at the same time and you can only hit 1 or 2 and the other is dps'd by the NPCs
Didnt mean to say that it wasnt helpfull, it is. Reveals atleast some of what they have in store for us, but the results can most likely be skewed in many directions very easily.
Aren't those mobs near SL different types? That'd explain the weird differences in various avoidance rates as different mobs may have different stats. Lack of dodge and parry data also makes it difficult to guess what could've happened. It's good to see the change in glancing blow mechanic confirmed though.
Anyway, the effects of +weapon skill on crits, misses, dodges, and parries seem unchanged from Live to Beta according to my tests. Against level 55 invinsible mob in BL (easy to get large amount of samples because you can run tests against it unattended) at level 60:
Maybe the mechanic is different against mobs higher than your current level, but I doubt it. The data from my initial post had about thousand samples on both my Paladin and my Rogue against +3 mobs, and neither had noticeably increased crit/hit rate.
Maybe the mechanic is different against mobs higher than your current level, but I doubt it.
Um, surely the discussion is about the effect of +skill on glancing blows? And you don't *GET* glancing blows unless the mob is higher level. So I'm not sure what, if any, relevance these figures have.
Aren't those mobs near SL different types? That'd explain the weird differences in various avoidance rates as different mobs may have different stats. Lack of dodge and parry data also makes it difficult to guess what could've happened. It's good to see the change in glancing blow mechanic confirmed though.
Anyway, the effects of +weapon skill on crits, misses, dodges, and parries seem unchanged from Live to Beta according to my tests. Against level 55 invinsible mob in BL (easy to get large amount of samples because you can run tests against it unattended) at level 60:
As for the OP, the sample size is way too small to indicate anything at all. The standard error of the sample is going to be much greater than the differences that you're finding with regards to the controlled variables. While the data does appear to fit the assumptions people are having with regards to bugged weapon skill, there really is no statistical basis for them.
I'd love to see a parsing of a much larger sample. > 10,000 hits at the least, even then that's a relatively low sample considering you're dealing with less than 4% difference in the controlled variable.
10/27/06, 9:35 AM
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