Weapon Skill Bugged in Beta? - Page 9

ildon · 11/12/06, 11:10 PM

Originally Posted by Soul

Originally Posted by Mosh

Patchwerk hit so hard because the reduction from armor is calculated based on your level. If you're wearing level 60 tanking gear at 67 you're gonna get hit like you were in mail.

Hold on a minute. i thought damage reduction by armor level was dependent on the attacker's level, not the defender's.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Formulas:Damage_reduction

%Reduction = (Armor / (Armor + 400 + 85 * Enemy_Level)) * 100

So the mitigation should remain the same. It's probably Hateful Strike mechanics that are screwed up in some way.

Apparently boss levels are being calculated as *always* being player level + 3. So that means at 67 the "enemy level" part of the equation is 70.

Wodahs · 11/12/06, 11:23 PM

Once they put lvls on naxx mobs, things will be fine again.

Lilias · 11/13/06, 6:35 AM

In case this hasn't been mentioned: Blizz "didn't want +weapon skill to affect glancing blows". » http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...geNo=1&sid=1#1

suicuique · 11/13/06, 8:16 AM

Originally Posted by Mosh

Patchwerk hit so hard because the reduction from armor is calculated based on your level. If you're wearing level 60 tanking gear at 67 you're gonna get hit like you were in mail.

Doubt that PW's HS hitting so hard (someone reported 15K against a lvl 67 tank) is because of the AC mitigation going down.

For an HS (max dmg 29990 IIRC) to hit for 15K, the armor reduction would have to be ca 50%.

Lets assume PW is to be a +3 Lvl Mob for a lvl 67 tank -> Lvl 70 Mob.

To have a armor mitigation of 50% against a Lvl 70 Mob, you must have

AC = (85*70+400)*0.5/(1-0.5) = 6350 AC.

There is no f**** way the lvl 67 tank had only 6350 AC when being hit by PW.

My money is on either the Mitigation formula severely changed (doubt that though) or the HS mechanic being broken.

And as to the other statement of "If you're wearing level 60 tanking gear at 67 you're gonna get hit like you were in mail":

When im tanking I have 11K to 12K armor. Lets assume 11K for the sake of the argument.
Against current Raidbosses (lvl63) this would result in an armor mitigation of 65,7%.
The same armor agains lvl 70 bosses would result in an armor mitigation of 63,4%.

I would hardly call that "going from plate to mail" ^^

regards

TL-Seria · 11/13/06, 8:49 AM

Ironaya is no longer a skull boss, so I can't test it..

Archaedes however still is, but I can't solo my way down there :/

Trindade · 11/13/06, 8:53 AM

Originally Posted by suicuique

Originally Posted by Mosh

Patchwerk hit so hard because the reduction from armor is calculated based on your level. If you're wearing level 60 tanking gear at 67 you're gonna get hit like you were in mail.

Doubt that PW's HS hitting so hard (someone reported 15K against a lvl 67 tank) is because of the AC mitigation going down.

For an HS (max dmg 29990 IIRC) to hit for 15K, the armor reduction would have to be ca 50%.

Lets assume PW is to be a +3 Lvl Mob for a lvl 67 tank -> Lvl 70 Mob.

To have a armor mitigation of 50% against a Lvl 70 Mob, you must have

AC = (85*70+400)*0.5/(1-0.5) = 6350 AC.

There is no f**** way the lvl 67 tank had only 6350 AC when being hit by PW.

My money is on either the Mitigation formula severely changed (doubt that though) or the HS mechanic being broken.

And as to the other statement of "If you're wearing level 60 tanking gear at 67 you're gonna get hit like you were in mail":

When im tanking I have 11K to 12K armor. Lets assume 11K for the sake of the argument.
Against current Raidbosses (lvl63) this would result in an armor mitigation of 65,7%.
The same armor agains lvl 70 bosses would result in an armor mitigation of 63,4%.

I would hardly call that "going from plate to mail" ^^

regards

You're assuming a formula on wowwiki is 100% accurate.

Regardless, anyone got a screenshot or video of patchwerk doing this sort of damage to a warrior in plate n BC?

Cesar2000 · 11/13/06, 9:00 AM

Originally Posted by TL-Seria

Ironaya is no longer a skull boss, so I can't test it..

Archaedes however still is, but I can't solo my way down there :/

Actually.. i think Archaedas showed as a level 47 elite when I was there last time.

TL-Seria · 11/13/06, 9:21 AM

Yes we just got there, not a skull anymore.

So we now have no way to test the theory that skull is always +3 levels.

I'm going to try ZG now in beta :P

RK · 11/13/06, 9:26 AM

They removed a ton of skull bosses a long time ago. I wonder if it was to disguise exactly this.

Back in January '05 on my first Uldaman trip, a couple of people left and we got a level 60 pally in (one of the first on the server) and a level 55 mage to help out. Despite the firepower, we wiped to Archaedes. Came back the next day with a group all of 46s (war, pal, pal, hunter, hunter) and took him easy.

If he was hitting the level 60 pally harder than he was hitting the level 46 warrior the next day, that would explain that in retrospect, since a mid-40s healer would have had a much tougher job keeping up with the raw damage on the 60 than on the 46.

TL-Seria · 11/13/06, 9:39 AM

what a stupid, stupid game mechanic.

The thing is that Kalgan specifically states "+3 levels" and then says we're not supposed to fight that. If that was the case, then make bosses +2 levels and be done with it. But putting players at such a disadvantage and then taking away the stat that lets us go somewhat around it just does not make sense to me.

• Maestroquark · 11/13/06, 10:12 AM

*edit* Ignore me, reply to old post because I'm too asleep to see the other pages

Rz · 11/13/06, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by Lilias

In case this hasn't been mentioned: Blizz "didn't want +weapon skill to affect glancing blows". » http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...geNo=1&sid=1#1

But at the same time he says that +weapon skill has been buffed(?) so that it is still the best stat for raiding.

So what did they change with it? 1 skill is now more than .04% hit/crit? It's cheaper than it was before so it's the best stat point-for-point?

Wodahs · 11/13/06, 12:09 PM

1 kill is 0.4% crit hit, as well as glancing changes. Right now, we glance 40% fo the time, for up to a 30% dmg reduction on 63 mobs. In tbc, we glance 40% of the time, for up to 24% dmg reduction on mobs. Disregarding weapon skill, it means in WoW 1.12 we lose 12% of our white dmg, in TBC we lost 9.6% of our white dmg. In wow 1.12 we gain 0.04% crit/hit per skill point, and mitigate up to all of the 12% white dmg reduction, in tbc we gain 0.4% crit/hit, but dotn mitigate the dmg reduction.

These numbers are from whats floating in this thread, can we get some double checks. A sanity check is saying 0.4% crit/hit is way too high. A human, weapon expertise, sword rogue gains 4% hit and 4% crit? Seems a little high.

pf · 11/13/06, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by suicuique

My money is on either the Mitigation formula severely changed (doubt that though) or the HS mechanic being broken.

I believe the mitigation formula has actually gone under a large change. Look at any tier item now and compare it to what it is in TBC, there is a ~15% armor increase. Also I believe druids now have even more % increase in armor from dire bear form for this very reason.

Wodahs · 11/13/06, 12:24 PM

Well, my char screen is showing 1 skill is 0.04% crit on tbc, so Im not sure who pulled/guessed at 0.4% hit/crit, but Im not seeing it yet.

Zurai · 11/13/06, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by TL-Seria

The thing is that Kalgan specifically states "+3 levels" and then says we're not supposed to fight that.

No, he didn't. Go back and re-read the statement. Seriously, it's basic reading comprehension.

Kody · 11/13/06, 2:14 PM

Originally Posted by Wodahs

Well, my char screen is showing 1 skill is 0.04% crit on tbc, so Im not sure who pulled/guessed at 0.4% hit/crit, but Im not seeing it yet.

I'm guessing people got confused on where the decimal went when reporting that. I can confirm as well that it's 0.04% per skill point to crit(so probably hit as well). So basically skill has the same percentage effect as defense on parry/dodge/block. Now, is that really worth it? They're going to have to itemize +weapon skill the same as defense currently is on live for it to even be worth it.

TL-Seria · 11/13/06, 2:41 PM

Originally Posted by krucifix85

Originally Posted by Fiola

Originally Posted by Mosh

Patchwerk hit so hard because the reduction from armor is calculated based on your level. If you're wearing level 60 tanking gear at 67 you're gonna get hit like you were in mail.

So . . . would that mean some fights in Naxx might become harder/impossible as you outlevel the instance due to your tanks becoming lesser geared relative to their level?

If they don't gear up appropriately, of course.

The problem is that you probably couldnt even HS tank patchwerk in Full T4 either.

Calantus · 11/13/06, 2:57 PM

I think I might have started the 0.4% crit thing in this thread. When I did my quick calculations on the worth of 5 skill points I did it under the assumption that it did 0.4% crit based on someone else saying that the +hit portion was now 0.4% based on their parses. We had no way of knowing what it did to +crit as there was nowhere near enough sample size for that. As for it only adding 0.04% crit, that may or may not be true for +3 mobs as Kalgan says...

Kalgan: "made some slight improvements to +weapon skill to offset the nerf in order to maintain its use as the "best" stat you can get against a target 3 levels or higher than you". If that is the case they may have made it scale the benefit based on the level difference of the mob compared to you, only parsed combat logs would prove what the actal crit rate improvement is if so. Again that's just running on the assumption that they have changed the crit portion to scale with levels, I don't think I made the assumption clear enough in my first post so making sure I emphasise it here. :P

Liand · 11/13/06, 3:45 PM

Been busy leveling, but as far as I can tell from some more data parses, weapon skill works like this per point:

Against lower/even-level mobs: +0.04% hit/crit, -0.04% to be dodged/parried/blocked
Against higher-level mobs: +0.24% hit, +0.04% crit, -0.04% to be dodged/parried/blocked

So... same as ranged weapon skill mechanic in Live.

Trazhenko · 11/13/06, 6:56 PM

Originally Posted by Liand

Been busy leveling, but as far as I can tell from some more data parses, weapon skill works like this per point:

Against lower/even-level mobs: +0.04% hit/crit, -0.04% to be dodged/parried/blocked
Against higher-level mobs: +0.24% hit, +0.04% crit, -0.04% to be dodged/parried/blocked

So... same as ranged weapon skill mechanic in Live.

So Death's Sting would go from "significantly better" than Maexxna's Fang to "about the same"?

.72 hit, .12 crit, and 2 AP (and 2 stam) vs 1 hit.

The average damage is still better on DS, but the +3 daggers is definitely less valuable than before vs. a +3 mob.

RK · 11/13/06, 7:08 PM

Well, 0.24 is certainly better than 0.04, but it's disappointing that the increased rate is only +hit.

At 0.4 hit and crit, weapon expertise talents were at least better (point for point) than precision talents.

At those figures, even vs higher level mobs and even considering the - dodge and - parry effects as being effectively more +hit, precision talents are more DPS per point than weapon expertise talents. And vs even level mobs it's no contest.

As Kody said, weapon skill numbers would have to be itemised on the same order of magnitude as +defence for this to be really worthwhile as a mechanic.

Celandro · 11/13/06, 8:27 PM

Originally Posted by Trazhenko

Originally Posted by Liand

Been busy leveling, but as far as I can tell from some more data parses, weapon skill works like this per point:

Against lower/even-level mobs: +0.04% hit/crit, -0.04% to be dodged/parried/blocked
Against higher-level mobs: +0.24% hit, +0.04% crit, -0.04% to be dodged/parried/blocked

So... same as ranged weapon skill mechanic in Live.

So Death's Sting would go from "significantly better" than Maexxna's Fang to "about the same"?

.72 hit, .12 crit, and 2 AP (and 2 stam) vs 1 hit.

The average damage is still better on DS, but the +3 daggers is definitely less valuable than before vs. a +3 mob.

Warning IANABP (I am not a beta player), theory craft incoming..

No, you forgot the reduction in dodge, parry and block. For white damage, +3 skill would come out to +.96 hit +.12%crit -.12% chance at block from the front which is easily better than +1hit. From the back it would be +.84 hit +.12crit which comes out about the same as +1hit. The reduction in dodge/parry also increase your yellow damage and increases your crit cap so +3 skill is clearly superior to +1hit.

I haven't looked at the item budget to see if this is fair though. If +3skill is about the same cost as +1hit then its still the best raid stat just not as clearly overpowered as previously.

• frmorrison · 11/14/06, 12:57 AM

From the PTR 2.0 Patch Notes:
Weapon Skill now does the following:
- Weapon skill will no longer reduce the percentage damage lost due to
glancing.
- The player will gain 0.1% to their critical strike rating per weapon
skill against monsters above their level.

Liand · 11/14/06, 1:13 AM

Critical strike rating? Does that mean if you have +100 critical strike rating from gear, you'd get 1 more with 10 weapon skill? That can't be right... Maybe +1% crit chance with 10 weapon skill?

Doesn't this also sorta screw over Rogues using Daggers?