1. I believe it's possible to chaincast Arcane Missiles with little to no casting delay. Also, could you include an option to change out casting delay to a different number?
3. I don't know if you covered this or not, but Frostbolt does not recieve the level based resists. Ice Lance should, if it's a non-binary spell.
It looks like a nice sheet, I really like the ability to copy talents into it directly.
That dosen't seem right. AB is much lower then Fireball and AM is lower then anything else. It was my understanding that AM has the highest DPS. Is your DPS here including 20% fire execute off the bat with it?
I've been comparing the calculations with my spreadsheet and here's some things I found.
Raid buffs (AI and MotW) are affected by Expansive Mind racial.
Divine Spirit is 40.
Crit rate from int is INT/59.5+0.2.
Current +damage bonus for AM is 1.2.
+damage bonus multiplier for AM in TBC is additive (5/3.5 + 0.15*talent)*+damage
That's what I've noticed at first pass, there's probably more.
Using fastcast I am looking at .02 to 0.04 (+2*latency) on pure fireball spam on a very solid connection. For scorch, I get closer to .08 and spiking to 0.2 but no where near 0.4.
As to real dps numbers for TBC, I am still refraining. Apparently the present focus is "re-balance" and that gives me zero incentive to try and max what I *might* be able to do in beta. When it all is back to numbers again, I promise a full workup with charts and the whole nine yards. Mostly because I think the results are still going to be funny as hell.
Ignore!!! I will give a full workup in due time for mages. It just is no longer worth it in a flux situation.
I am still very worried about the changes in general though =-)
I do it the same way I parsed "real" Rogue damage in EQ. When I can find a pure parsing target, I use it. When I cannot, I use a real simulation (for attacks/sec and such, I find that any target is not bad... although I know the blasted lands targets might be imperfect).
For anything of note, I use real-world raid targets. For things that I presume are only affected but lag and talents and so on, I cheat. I'll hit BL and chain cast. When it comes to resists (white, yellow, whatever we like to call them now.. ) I do not cheat.
There is a massive difference between parsing data for information on mechanics and parsing data for information on "best practices". The two are related but not at all the same thing.
EDIT: For fun, try yourself with a spam-key and see what you get. Against the EULA am an sure but still, amuse yourself with the difference while using fastcast. Perhaps if enough bitch I might even see a half-second spell queue like I have said SINCE F&F BETA TWO.
I'd like to see damage trinkets included, as currently they're counted as wasted trinket slots unless you add the average spell damage benefit to total spell damage. I'm interested mostly in things that are no doubt difficult to implement in the spreadsheet, like ZHC, ToA, and MQG, to measure damage trinkets against each other and against passive trinkets.
Talisman of Ephemeral Power
175 for 15 every 90
Hard Moden Token Turn In Caster Trinket
153 for 20 every 120
Mind Quickening Gem
Haste+330 for 20 every 300
Talisman of Ascendance
40/80/120/160/200 for 20 every 60
The Restrained Essence of Sapphiron
130 for 20 every 120
Zandalarian Hero Charm
204/187/170/153/136/119/102/85/68/51/34/12 for 20 every 120
Draconic Infused Emblem
100 for 15 every 75
Eye of Moam
50 for 30 every 180
Fire Ruby
100 once every 180
Terokkar Tablet of Vim
102 for 15 every 90
Ancient Crystal Talisman
(Glowing Crystal Insignia)
104 for 20 every 120
Star of Sha'naar
70 for 15 every 120
A fight duration variable and output for potential damage and dps over that time factoring in regen, gems, and evocation (and spirit gear while evocating) would also be handy.
Here is a small table I made for my guild some days ago discussing the use of [Nightfin Soup] vs [Kreeg's Stout Beatdown]
(made it in a few minutes and noone in the guild really felt like checking it, so might be full of mistakes)
Originally Posted by vorda
Spirit calculations:
mages get 1mana for 4 spi, thats 6.25 mana per tick out ofFSR in this case.
a spirit tick is 2 secs, so this would be 15.625 mp5 out of FSR.
With mage armor this makes 4.6875 mp5.
with mage armor and arcane meditation this makes 7.03125 mp5.
Also, the 25 spirit adds 750 mana to your evocation, assuming you dont already fill your entire mana bar with it.
Assume you dont already fill your mana bar with evocation, this is how we can put the evocation added mana in mp5 (assuming you only use evo once):
5 min fight: 12.5 mp5
6 min fight: 10.42 mp5
7 min fight: 8.93 mp5
8 min fight: 7.81 mp5
10 min fight: 6.25 mp5
12 min fight: 5.21 mp5
15 min fight: 4.17 mp5 (Twin Emps)
Using evo twice:
10 min fight: 12.5 mp5
12 min fight: 10.42 mp5
15 min fight: 8.33 mp5 (Twin Emps)
To make it easy, one last table, Total mana regeneration by 25 spirit, in mp5: Mage armor, 1x Evocation
5 min: 17.2 mp5
6 min: 15.1 mp5
7 min: 13.6 mp5
8 min: 12.5 mp5
10 min: 10.9 mp5
12 min: 9.9 mp5
15 min: 8.9 mp5
I've run at least a dozen tests on cast time using all of our primary spells timed for exactly 60s/number of spells cast. The average was .34 additional seconds per spell. It did not change at all when I used fastcast and that was with a 89 ping.
I had a BR friend of mine run the same tests (he has around 300 ping, but was using fastcast) and got the exact same results after 10 sessions.
On the mage forums I constantly hear how people get .0000000001 seconds added to their spells only, but as of yet not one single person has ever ran more then 1 completely uncontrolled experiment to test it. Well, that has let me know of the results anyway.
Binary spells do suffer from the 24 innate resists of mobs, they are just able to be countered with pen/coe unlike non-binary spells. Either way frostbolt gets 6% more dps in any raid.
Isn't Frostbolt's miss rate increased by 6% to compensate for the loss of damage through partial resists? That's how it was explained in a blue post on the mage forum a while back. (There has also been speculation that this raises the useful +hit gear cap for frost mages.)
At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.
For Fireball this doesn't make any difference since the base cast time multiplier is 1 anyway. But it might be an advantage for Frostbolt. I was using:
3.0 / 3.5 * 0.95 * 1.1 ~= 0.896/2.5 ~= 0.358
But if what you say is true, it seems like it would be either:
(3.0 / 3.5 + 0.1) * 0.95 ~= 0.909/2.5 ~= 0.364
...or, better yet:
(3.0 / 3.5 * 0.95 + 0.1) ~= 0.914/2.5 ~= 0.366
Anybody know which is the case?
I'd also be interested in knowing if the mana cost reducers are additive or multiplicative.
At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.
Isn't Frostbolt's miss rate increased by 6% to compensate for the loss of damage through partial resists? That's how it was explained in a blue post on the mage forum a while back. (There has also been speculation that this raises the useful +hit gear cap for frost mages.)
No, see Tseric's post explaining how binary spell resists work. It works out that binary damage spells like frostbolt have the same expected damage but higher variance.
Yes, that's exactly the post I'm referring to. That post directly contradicts the idea that frostbolts would get a free pass on the 6% damage reduction through resistance being described above.
At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.
I've run at least a dozen tests on cast time using all of our primary spells timed for exactly 60s/number of spells cast. The average was .34 additional seconds per spell. It did not change at all when I used fastcast and that was with a 89 ping.
I had a BR friend of mine run the same tests (he has around 300 ping, but was using fastcast) and got the exact same results after 10 sessions.
On the mage forums I constantly hear how people get .0000000001 seconds added to their spells only, but as of yet not one single person has ever ran more then 1 completely uncontrolled experiment to test it. Well, that has let me know of the results anyway.
Binary spells do suffer from the 24 innate resists of mobs, they are just able to be countered with pen/coe unlike non-binary spells. Either way frostbolt gets 6% more dps in any raid.
With a higher ping, you'd see better results using fast cast or pressing a macro with spellstopcasting ->spell at the right time, as the room for improvement is much greater. I raid with a 300-400ping and can pull off 1.6-1.7 second scorches no problem.
Yes, that's exactly the post I'm referring to. That post directly contradicts the idea that frostbolts would get a free pass on the 6% damage reduction through resistance being described above.
Blizzard has never acknowledged the 24 resist rate (I thought it was 20, but I haven't checked it in a while) that non-binary spells have when attacking targets 3 levels higher, AFAIK.
Fireball/Scorch/Arcane Missiles with maxed out hit% and -300 resists- 1% chance to miss outright, 5-6% lost damage due to 25/50/75% resist rates.
Frostbolt with maxed out hit% and -300 resists- 1% chance to miss outright.
At the end of the day it does not really matter. While it appears to be true that frostbolts can negate the alleged inherent resists with to hit, you still need to invest item budget to get there. That is, frostbolt does not get a free pass it just can chose to spend item budget to minimize resists. But that item budget has to come from somewhere - usually damage. +hit is cheaper than the corresponding damage so you gain something, but it would be misleading to state that frost does not suffer from inherent resists at all.*
*This is all somewhat speculative since Blizzard never officially commented and since the mechanics have changed before.
Originally Posted by Copernicus
Originally Posted by Lhivera
Yes, that's exactly the post I'm referring to. That post directly contradicts the idea that frostbolts would get a free pass on the 6% damage reduction through resistance being described above.
Blizzard has never acknowledged the 24 resist rate (I thought it was 20, but I haven't checked it in a while) that non-binary spells have when attacking targets 3 levels higher, AFAIK.
Fireball/Scorch/Arcane Missiles with maxed out hit% and -300 resists- 1% chance to miss outright, 5-6% lost damage due to 25/50/75% resist rates.
Frostbolt with maxed out hit% and -300 resists- 1% chance to miss outright.
The best explanation I've seen for that 24 resists was given by Gurg a while back, saying that it was probably an artifact in the way the constraint that resistances can't be negative was implemented, back in that patch when they changed CoE/CoS. He suggested that the part of the resistances based on level was applied after CoE/CoS were applied and after the zero resistance constraint was enforced. It seems a likely explanation although I don't know how the apparent lack of it in binary spells plays into that.
You can measure your cast lag by going into a spam situation and saving a combat log. It'll show when each spell hits along with a timestamp. You can take the difference between subsequent hits and average those to get your real cast time, making the assumption that the travel time on both casts is the same. I tried that months ago on Ebonroc and found that Frostbolt was taking about 3s rather than 2.5. If you're familiar with Perl, it's fairly simple to write a script to automate most of the process.
I've seen you link that video before in one of my threads on the mage forums, and I believe you said you were going to post more results, however the forums crashed and much of that post was deleted so I presume you never did... 1 uncontrolled test. :/ I actually pulled of 1.7s scorches in one of my tests once. It was rather odd, because I simply could not replicate it for the life of me after half a dozen more. I even had someone else do the test a few times while I timed it behind them.
I suppose on a long boss fight where you do nothing but spam the same spell for several minutes without stopping you might be able to use the combat log to get a realistic idea of your cast delay. The combat log is anything but accurate to the second though, and even just .5s off the start or end of your spell can change the result from 1.7 to 1.75s per scorch in many instances.
Anyway, the post Lhivera was refering to was infact not made by Tseric but by Eyonix a very long time ago. When they changed forums it was copied over by Tseric, but at the time it was made Tseric wasn't even a CM. That should give you an indication that spell penetration wasn't even in the game at the time which would explain quite a bit. I think I can remember every blue post on the mage forums since beta! /flex
I would presume, like many others, that it's just a bug (or more specifically an oversight) with how resists are calculated and it would likely be fixed in TBC since it's pretty obvious that spell penetration does nothing at all in pve yet it was intentioally put on many pve items. This could add up to a 6% stealth increase in dps for fire, which isn't all that bad since the most recent talent nerfs have dropped aboout 8% of fires dps.
Are you sure that it stacks with both? im pretty sure its a drink buff and therefore doesnt stack with any other drink buff such as the 10 or 15 stam drinks. You may be thinking of pots as "drink buffs".
10/27/06, 11:25 PM
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