saiyajinmaster

I'm not sure about other classes, but I've yet to find more than marginal upgrades to even T2 gear at 67, the upgrades are small enough that losing my 3 piece Bloodfang would be a DPS loss without larger upgrades for each slot. I've gotten 2 belts, 2 pants, and 2 BPs that are worth it individually, discounting set bonuses, but even all three of them would barely be an upgrade in tandem, and are still a downgrade since I don't have the ZG enchant.

I think people are blowing the mudflation way out of proportion, and especially forgetting set bonuses. Tier 3 mostly has extremely nice bonuses. Level 65 blues don't replace those. The few slots I've found some extremely nice upgrades for, are necks, trinkets, and cloaks.

 

Elendril

at lvl 67 i've replaced exactly 2 pieces of gear - my neck and my cloak, one because of the stamina item budget change and one because cloak of the fallen god wasn't reitemized.

 

Zurai

All the people I've seen still wearing full suits of tier gear at level 67 have been people that relied solely on grinding mobs and quests and didn't do much instance running, or people that don't use socketed items. I'm only level 65 and done only light instancing and I've gotten upgrades to my belt, leg, gloves, ranged weapon, cloak, and trinket slots, and passed on items that would have been small upgrades for me but bigger upgrades for others.

 

Zagzil

Then I guess it's "balanced" that the extremely easy to acquire AQ40 Exalted Ring is now better than Bonescythe Ring?

It's the fact that itemization is now favorable again that makes this so silly, anything with Str/Agi will quickly be inferior to items with AP/Agi strictly due to rebudgeting.

 

Mist

Exactly. Rogues have long suffered from terrible itemization between str/agi alotment and terrible stats like +dodge on our PvE sets and on our ZG enchant. I mean, lets look at Bonescythe Legplates, thats 31 str that could be 62 AP, that item will be JUNK the day the expansion hits thanks to that little fact.

 

◊ Bryne

Upgrades to what? Tier 1, yeah I can see that. Tier 2? Not really. Tier 3, definitely not.

As someone said before, enchants and set bonuses for T2+ gear make current blues non-upgrades, with the exception of the new stamina values. At 65, you probably haven't run across any blue drops to make it worth dropping T2+ enchanted gear. As you hit the dungeons at 67+, you'll start to.

Edit: same, at 65 I've upgraded my cloak, ring, neck, and probably my ranged weapon when I hit 66. Nothing else has been more than a side-grade yet.

 

Zurai

Tier 2 and some tier 3. Admittedly, Hunter tier 2 is useless for soloing - but so is warrior, shaman, paladin, priest, and druid tier 1, 2, and 3. And, as I said, I've already upgraded quite a few pieces of gear, at level 65.

Part of the problem is that apparantly Blizzard will only let you upgrade like 3 slots through quests in the entirety of Outlands. I can't tell you how many different variations of ~15 agility ~25 stamina ~30 ap cloaks I've seen as quest rewards, all within 1 or 2 points of each other in each stat. Similarly, I've seen a grand total of ONE non-spellpower/spellcrit mail quest reward, and it was for a Hellfire Ramparts quest so not an upgrade.

 

LadyVex

Zurai's a hunter, and I believe he had 8 piece DS going into beta. As a hunter I'd drop 5-8 piece DS set bonuses in an effing heartbeat. 5 piece maybe not so much with the pets changes but I'd ditch the 8 piece easily, at least for solo play, but I assume by the time I hit TBC raids I'll have found things more geared towards raids.

As far as rogues goes, let's not make bones about what happened. To compensate hunters a few items rogues wanted got a buff. Conversely they could have just put it as RAP and we'd hear moaning in the opposite direction.

Exceptional items exist everywhere; Mugger's Belt, Cape of the Black Baron, Bracers of the Eclipse etc, items better than some teired pieces because of the stat allocation.

I highly doubt they're going to change rogue items because previous ones were changed to aid hunters. Be grateful some of the old rings can be pulled from their bags again.

And the bonuses of teir 3 are designed to mix and match, hence the ring. So while the ring may not be as awesome anymore, it's possible you'd use it to free up a slot for something potentially better and still keep your bonuses.

And what does most of this matter anyways? Having seen some of the easily gotten rings it's all going to be upgraded pronto.

First time I've ever heard anyone moan about a buff.

 

Louie

Rogues have a valid complaint regarding their itemization at present in the game, and it is a bit screwy that items being specifically rebalanced for hunters end up being rogue wet dreams. I don't see how to fix it, though, when rogue and hunter roles are so very similar. However, there have always been items that were useful for both classes; now, there are more of them. I don't see an issue in that regard. There's a larger issue about how rogue AP is generated and how Blizzard has chosen to allocate item budget on rogue gear, but I'm not sure it belongs in this thread.

 

Ragaman

This thread is dumb.

"You tell her she's a bitch!!"
"I can't, she's dead"
"Then you tell her she's a goddamn whore!"

 

Grogzor

Yeah, if they wanted to make rogues even higher dps then they already are? Guess what, because of that whole Str and AP thing, Blizzard can continuously upgrade your gear by giving you less STR and more AP. You get to scale. Before, hunters really didnt get to...i mean, 1 agi and 2 AP were pretty similar.

But when it comes time for me to remove your wings, and you, you must try to fly...

Click Here to see what makes me tic(k).

What Are You Going to Roll for Warhammer Online?

 

probiscus

/signed

Verbal diarrhea abounds these days.

I once read something about Ben Franklin; he would read his correspondences over and over again, trying to eliminate every spare (useless) word he could.

There's a lesson in there somewhere.

 

ayb

not sure what gloves with high Str or AP you would think are good for shamans. I made black grasps of the destroyer but I would still take vek'lor's personally

 

Mist

Lol? We can make rogues gear scale better by intentionally gimping it, then introducing items with the same ilvl that have better stat allocation? That's stupid, no other class is like that to the extent that rogues are, and when they are it is addressed promptly. No other class has gear that is intentionally gimped for its ilvl. That's not scaling. As it is now, in the expansion hunters will scale perfectly. Rogues will scale as the developers feel like itemizing them.

 

Grogzor

I wonder how much more dps rogues would do with 172 extra AP in Tier 2, 188 AP in tier 2.5? 228 AP in tier 3? (Approximations due to not wanting to calculate DRs)

Could it be that blizzard considered a rogue doing that much dps unintended so intentionally gimped it?

I wonder why hunter tier 2.5 has +spell damage, could it possibly be something to soak up ilvl points?

Edit: Also, developers have stated one of the reasons they made this change was so they could actually itemize hunters. Before, the tier sets were pretty much the only things hunters wanted with rare exception. (Ossirans Binding, Craftable Mail Epic gloves and Veklors Gloves are the only things that come to mind). We wont scale perfectly because Blizzard can choose to give us more agility then optimal on future sets. In fact, if you look at the Hunter PvP sets, they have a lot less AP then what i think would be warranted for items of their level.

But when it comes time for me to remove your wings, and you, you must try to fly...

Click Here to see what makes me tic(k).

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Elendril

actually, every class has gear that it intentionally gimped for its ilvl. there are certain maximum AP values and such that certain tiers of sets are assigned, and stats are distributed with that in mind. the item designers aren't stupid - they're just working within particular constraints that you as a player don't see.

 

Kaelana

Hunters won't scale perfectly - we'll finally scale properly. All I'm hearing from you is that you're upset hunters got a re-itemisation and rogues didn't. Newsflash - with the new mechanics they've forced on us, Blizzard needed to rework the hunter itemisation (and cross-class high agility items that were previously 'hunter'-like) or ALL hunters would be signficantly behind the curve when the expansion started.

I really don't see what your crusade is all about. Rogue set gear is not changing because there is no such major mechanics changes to warrant a change to their gear. Blizzard have already budgeted your set gear to what they feel is proper for a rogue at that level. When we move to T4 and beyond, the devs will scale each class as they see fit for that level. That will not change.

 

Mist

Rogues are in the exact same situation. Do you ever see rogues wearing non set armor other than Aged Core Leather Gloves?

And no, I don't think old Rogue items will get changed, but if we don't start fighting this battle now, things will never improve. If we have to go through another year of Str being stuck on our set epics, while blue non set items designed for hunters are better than our set epics, I'm going to be really pissed. That's what this is really about: mediocre 'hunter' non set items are better for rogues than items specifically designed for rogues.

 

Tanth

I know there has been a reitemized Ashrejthul out there somewhere. Does anyone have it who would post it?

 

Elendril

it's 55.7 dps if i remember correctly.

 

Dayimba

You miscalculated here.
Rogue t2 has a total of 86 str currently- if it were changed to ap and kept at the same item levels then rogues would gain only another 86 ap total with 8/8 t2, not 172 (though 172 would be the total straight ap on the set, the change is not a 172 increase).

t2.5- 94 ap increase over live, not 188. t3-114, not 228.

I think blizzard didn't really know what to do with Rogue t3. Initially it was pure agi, then changed to it's current version, but given that the boots, chest and gloves have straight AP on them I'd guess that they don't really know what they are doing. Like I posted earlier with raid buffs etc changing the str/agi pieces of t3 to ap/agi would add about 20 dps total. To put it in perspective that would be a bump from ~780-> 800ish raid buffed dps. Not a lot, but rather reasonable and arguably something missed with our recent review. Anyhow, this should probably continue if anyone wants to in another thread.

 

Grogzor

Meh, i guess i did, but why stop there? I mean, its only 20 dps right? So why not another 20 dps beyond that?

I am guessing that Blizzard has teh ability to put a rogue into the best gear possible, put it onto a server with a dummy they can just go to town on and that is prolly what they base what they want rogues dps to be on. If they think its lacking, they will add some more AP here instead of str or vice versa.

Blizzard chooses what they want items to look have for a reason, they just dont arbitrarily put stats anymore...at least not since tier 2 anyway.

But when it comes time for me to remove your wings, and you, you must try to fly...

Click Here to see what makes me tic(k).

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Xard

Well, by your same argument why did we need the hunter changes at all? I mean, its just a huge difference in dps, and thats only 20 here, 20 there.

Oh wait, hunters were an inherently broken class with 0 use in raids outside of tranq'ing but overly feared in PvP by most classes.

And if they wanted rogues to be artificially limited for dps by giving us bum stats, why would they change the course now? All the loot in TBC for rogues is quite specifically agi and AP, and I doubt that the epics in raiding instances will be much different. The only thing fixing our current gear would do is make it so the change to TBC isn't so laughable for us compared to other classes in terms of gear progression.


A similar case could be made for warriors actually, but their change is from a literal change in the values of stats, rather than in how they're given. If someone wants to make that post, I'll back them up :)

 

Farstrider

I've upgraded a few pieces of DS already at level 62 to be quite frank. This sidegrade http://thotbott.com/beta?i=468 is attainable at lvl 60, within about 30 mins of coming through the Portal. So it's pretty difficult for me to tell the unwashed "casual raiding" masses to keep on running MC/BWL when I know they can get upgrades within 30 mins of the ex-pack.

I think this thread has a lot of moaning about poor itemization of level 60 gear. Understand this - gear from 60-70 is on a totally different curve to that you've experienced til 60. The only reason Elendril hasn't upgraded much is a combination of CS being outrageously well itemized, and preferring that to stam heavy gear. But I'm sure even he's seen a few sidegrades with more stam, or even marginal upgrades that weren't worth breaking up set bonuses for. Forget level 60 gear, apart from as a tool to help you clear Naxx, it isn't worth talking about any more, and it certainly isn't what Blizzard are focussed on right now.

John O'Groats to Lands End 2009 for Leukaemia Research

 

Grogzor

Umm...because blizzard has decided its time for you guys to be doing as much dps as they want?

They had to limit how much dps rogues had. Otherwise, rogues would either be scaling just as bad as hunters now....or be totally beyond in damage then what they should be. If a rogue did 1k dps, then that fine line between guild mate and hunter becomes increasingly smaller.

True, blizzard has made some mistakes in the class "Cough, Hunters Cough" but they were also doing what they intended ever since those original stat reallocations of tier 1.

But when it comes time for me to remove your wings, and you, you must try to fly...

Click Here to see what makes me tic(k).

What Are You Going to Roll for Warhammer Online?