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Old 10/31/06, 1:48 PM   #16
Lord BEEF
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Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by snape
A more interesting question in this thread would be:

What is the optimal Feral Cat DPS Cycle in TBC? (with all the debuff slots you need?)
Mangle to 5 combo points, rip, repeat.

While rake scales it's still not quite worth using. I'm suggesting it be buffed just enough so that it's part of an optimal cycle if you have the mangle debuff up.

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Old 10/31/06, 2:38 PM   #17
Deathwing
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Black Dragonflight
Originally Posted by Lord BEEF
Originally Posted by snape
A more interesting question in this thread would be:

What is the optimal Feral Cat DPS Cycle in TBC? (with all the debuff slots you need?)
Mangle to 5 combo points, rip, repeat.

While rake scales it's still not quite worth using. I'm suggesting it be buffed just enough so that it's part of an optimal cycle if you have the mangle debuff up.
Probaby right on rake, I was just pointing it out that it had changed.

Isn't shred better than mangle if you have the talent that improves shred? Why not shred -> rip cycle with enough mangles mixed in so that rip gets the bonus for its whole duration.

Oh, and I assume none of the bear or cat attacks are normalized?

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Old 10/31/06, 2:46 PM   #18
Kalman
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Originally Posted by Deathwing
Oh, and I assume none of the bear or cat attacks are normalized?
Kind of a meaningless question in light of the fact that all bear/cat weapons have the same attack speeds (1.0 and 2.4, IIRC). They're normalized to those speeds, effectively.

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Old 10/31/06, 3:00 PM   #19
Solanu
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Can you post your profile 2123 AP with raid buffs seems easily obtainable but how did you get 36.25% crit ?

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Old 10/31/06, 3:27 PM   #20
Zyla
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Originally Posted by Solanu
Can you post your profile 2123 AP with raid buffs seems easily obtainable but how did you get 36.25% crit ?
http://ctprofiles.net/3465093

22.2% + 9% for talents = 31.2%
+2% from mongoose potion = 33.2%
+2% from elemental Sharpening Stone = 35.2%
41 from mongoose/Mark of the Wild = 37.25%
387 + 10% from kings = 38.7 added agi = 1.935% crit = 39.2% crit.

I forgot to bring my sharpening stones, so i only had 37.2% crit :/

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Old 10/31/06, 3:27 PM   #21
Meddler
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Originally Posted by Deathwing
Isn't shred better than mangle if you have the talent that improves shred? Why not shred -> rip cycle with enough mangles mixed in so that rip gets the bonus for its whole duration.

Oh, and I assume none of the bear or cat attacks are normalized?
Last time I ran a few numbers/checked other people's assumptions Mangle is ever so slightly better DPE than shred at reasonable AP levels assuming both are fully talented and have the best currently known idols. That's not accounting for the debuff or the difference in combo point generation. Both of these are also unfortunately well ahead of rake unless the target has an extremely high amount of armour.

Nothing normalised at present, no surprise given the pre set weapon speed which can be designed around.

Edit: Sharpening stones still work in feral forms? I was under the impression that was changed a while back when they removed hunters ranged attacks benefiting from sharpening stones on melee weapons - take it this is not the case?

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Old 10/31/06, 3:35 PM   #22
Zyla
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to be honest, I haven't used one since the swap, so I can't speak to its retention of usefulness.

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Zyla, International Man of a Certain Standard.
Originally Posted by Bubbs View Post
That's right, I met my future wife through Zyla. :shudder:

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Old 10/31/06, 3:40 PM   #23
snape
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Rake is still very good for me - the fixed damage is still well above the damage I get out of a 5 pt FB (this is my alt druid mind you - although I do have about 800 AP and I turned 60 yesterday). This is assuming that you get the full duration of Rake in, of course. As your crit improves though, 5 pt FB should be better than Rake I <think>.

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Old 10/31/06, 3:53 PM   #24
Torel
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Night Elf Druid
 
Kael'thas
With your profile, I would suggest the following:

1. Make sure you have a 3/3 natural shifter spec, 5/5 in the tier 1 +15% FB talent, and the FB book from UBRS.
2. Have lots of greater mana pots on you.
3. Use the rune of metamorphisis unless you have both DFT and KotS
4. Practice powershifting after combos so that you reliably see your energy going from 0 to 60 after a FB or shred.
5. Make sure you have at least 5% hit to avoid frustration in using power-shift/shred.

As far as sequence, given your crit, I would go for 4 or 5 CP from shreds based on if you get a crit on the 4th point. FB immedeatelly upon the required energy gain, dont bother letting energy build: the conversion ratio is poor. Don't use tiger's fury - at your atp levels it is a definate DPS decrease. Some suggest wolfshead helm as superior for this, but based on number crunching on a long fight you are probably slightly better off with SW, genesis, guise, or furors depending on what is available.

The 4 CP versus 5 cp option you may want to experiment with. I have gone to using 4 given similar gear as yours, due to missed opportunity when you get a crit with 4 cp up.

Use the rune fairly early in the fight so that it will be up agian. When the rune is activated, begin a shred/shift/shred sequence and do FB's when your combo points are at 4 or 5. After that, do shifts at much longer intervals, mainly after a FB. Use druid bar to watch your mana. Use a pot after every single cooldown. Obviously, innervate the healers or a mage - you won't get much out of it.

The group composition and buffs are critical. You obviously want BS up at all times. If alliance, make sure that might stays on the entire fight - it makes an obvious difference. You need to make sure wisdom and such are up also. I have not actually tested this directly to make sure it applies (it just occured to me), but if mageblood affects feral then obviously use that also.

As a target to shoot for, I suggest about 550 DPS given your gear level. As a warning, high latency will kill this method dead as a doornail. If that is the case, don't bother trying to powershift and just go all-out AP/crit/hit for maximum shred damage.

edit: Shred versus rip. At very high crit/ap values the sustained damage is very similar. FB can actually do slightly more damage and dosen't take up a critical debuff slot. The fully buffed FB is a better option for sustained raid DPS on a armour-debuffed mob given the options.

edit: I meant major mana pots obviously. I use greater for almost everything actually, but I am poor.

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Old 10/31/06, 3:59 PM   #25
Meddler
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Tauren Druid
 
Blackrock
Originally Posted by snape
Rake is still very good for me - the fixed damage is still well above the damage I get out of a 5 pt FB (this is my alt druid mind you - although I do have about 800 AP and I turned 60 yesterday). This is assuming that you get the full duration of Rake in, of course. As your crit improves though, 5 pt FB should be better than Rake I <think>.
Think you mean Rip there - which along with FB does now scale with AP and if debuff slots were not an issue will for most gear sets be more efficient than FB. Rake's the combo point generating direct damage/small DoT that alas no one bothers using much for good reason since it doesn't take very high AP levels for it to become inefficient.

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Old 10/31/06, 5:24 PM   #26
krucifix85
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Barthilas
I'd like to just re-iterate a few good points in this thread.

Originally Posted by Feorthas
Option 1a: Close with Bite, you have 2/2 Blood Frenzy

if(numberCP < 4) Shred;
else FerociousBite;

--

Option 2a: Close with both, 2/2 Blood Frenzy

if(numberCP < 4) shred;
else if(number CP == 4) FerociousBite;
else if(number CP == 5) Rip;
Those 2 are the choices I'd take.
The first makes common sense to me, but it should be highlighted. Don't "waste" CP's. 4CP -> Finisher, -> Crit Shred, is alot better than 4CP -> Crit Shred -> Finisher.
Not sure at what AP levels a 5CP Bite > 5CP Rip, but that's for your own calculations. (Also, I'm unsure on the AP Scaling of both spells, anyone help me on that?)

Use the rune fairly early in the fight so that it will be up agian. When the rune is activated, begin a shred/shift/shred sequence and do FB's when your combo points are at 4 or 5. After that, do shifts at much longer intervals, mainly after a FB. Use druid bar to watch your mana. Use a pot after every single cooldown.
The Rune is an insane item, especially with the caster white attacks in between (normally hit for more than a cat form swing, as well). It's basically Cat form's Adrenaline Rush, on a 1 minute (?) shorter C/D. But if you have bad latency it won't be worth it. (Try it out next BWL run on Ebo or Nef, see if you can make it work well)

Shifting after an FB is very important. You will find a DPS increase if you do that, due to a "free" 20 or 40 energy.

Other than that, it's basically the normal, what you'd expect information:
Shred > *.
Ensure OoC is up at all times.
Don't use TF. (This whole post is aimed at druids with the same gear as OP)

So:
{Shred until you are 4 or 5cp
FB
Shapeshift}
repeat

with Rune Activated:
{{Shred
Shapeshift}
repeat until 4 or 5cp
FB
Shapeshift}
repeat

==

One thing i'd like to see if it was worth it is a little weapon found in Gnomeragan.
It's a 2h mace, ~15str, and has an "On Use:" of "Increase your attack speed by 50% for 30 seconds". From arall reports it has 3 chges before it runs out, has 0 cooldown, and is NOT unique.
Thoughts?
Edit: I guess the buff would only be active if you have the weapon equipped. So it wouldn't be worth it, losing the AP from a feral mace, for 50% more white dps.

edit:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0zLVhoZE0MsfbdtV
Pure DPS Spec, agree?

http://ctprofiles.net/13134

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Old 10/31/06, 5:36 PM   #27
Meddler
Piston Honda
 
Tauren Druid
 
Blackrock
Playing around with Tangedyn's cat calculator, which I've generally found to be very good, I've always got higher sustained dps levels from 5 point FBs than 4 points so I wouldn't necessarily proclaim 4 points was the way to go. While you do avoid wasting combo points on a crit you're also reducing the energy efficiency of the finisher in question.

On another note in terms of maximising dps - make sure that you're not using any more energy than necessary when using FB. The conversion of extra energy to damage is an atrociously inefficient one, far better to use that energy for anything else if you have the option - if you have enough energy to do something else and then bite do so, doesn't matter that it will assumedly waste combo points because it will still deliver better energy efficiency than FB's conversion.

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Old 10/31/06, 5:40 PM   #28
krucifix85
Don Flamenco
 
Human Warlock
 
Barthilas
Interesting call their Meddler, I thought a while ago I read that for the most efficient FB finisher usage, it went 3CP -> 4CP -> 5CP, in that order.

I was under the impression that while you get smaller values, it's more energy efficient to use the lower numbers. Has this changed with AP scaling FB now?

I'll see if I can find where I got that info from.

edit:Tangedyn's PHP Calc definitely indicates that FB-5 > FB-4 for DPS. I'll keep looking tho.

http://ctprofiles.net/13134

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Old 10/31/06, 5:50 PM   #29
Meddler
Piston Honda
 
Tauren Druid
 
Blackrock
I do recall seeing some claims along those lines a couple of months back too so would be most interested if you can track anything useful down. Issue reallyy depends how much faith you want to put in said calculator - just spent a little while playing around with absurd levels of crit and/or AP but can't duplicate any situation that favours a 4 point over a 5 point though the gap is admittedly narrow.

Has also just occured to me that the more frequently you're using a finisher the more often you're exposing yourself to the risk of it missing and therefore losing all the energy from it, making the 5 combo point versions yet more efficient on average. +hit gear can work to negate this as an issue of course.

Edit: Have also been trying to track down the AP scaling on FB/Rip since this has a substantial effect on which to use under ideal circumstances based on crit rate/AP. Seem to recall initial tests showed a different scaling rate for each of them but only link I can find on the Blizzard Euro forums claims 0.25 damage per AP for both which would indeed eventually favour FB over rip due to Natural weapons/feral aggression/possibility to crit. Anyone got some confirmed or at least evidence supported figures to hand?

Edit2: The amount of AP contribution to finishers also depended on the number of combo points being used as well from memory, will try and track that down too.

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Old 10/31/06, 6:38 PM   #30
Zyla
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Troll Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
This is why i use the Unending Life Set- Even if you miss, you don't lose any energy, you just hit it again!

Originally Posted by Apate View Post
Zyla, International Man of a Certain Standard.
Originally Posted by Bubbs View Post
That's right, I met my future wife through Zyla. :shudder:

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