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Melthar · 10/31/06, 8:49 PM

-If you don't have improved shred and don't have a lot of attack power, but have the cat idol and Ferocity + Savage fury, use Claw and shred only on OOC procs (if applicable).

Even with high AP, (around 2.1-2.2k without any consumables in my case) without improved shred, claw > shred. The extra combo points make up for any slight efficencies gained with non improved shred v claw.

For those looking at Tangedyn's calculator, another good tool to play with is "Druid Stats" by "Dracmoore" I believe he posted a link on EJ a while back (and has reposted below). This uses similar calcs to Tangedyn's page, but takes glancing blows and similar into account.

FB scales at 0.15damage per AP, Rip at 0.24damage/AP (both x1.1 for natural weapons) From recollection I think it worked out to be somewhere over 50% crit before FB became better than rip on average.

In live, I rarely have a problem with rip being knocked off early, even if hunters are being stupid and spamming stings rip tends to stay around for a while.

Time any +AP trinkets (earthstrike, jom, etc) to coincide with any finishers, as they tend to scale better with AP than base skills. (shred with NW and a 40% crit rate would only be 0.2475 damage/AP vs .264 damage/AP for rip with NW)

Edit: correct spelling of Drac's name.

Meddler · 10/31/06, 9:13 PM

Originally Posted by Melthar

FB scales at 0.15damage per AP, Rip at 0.24damage/AP (both x1.1 for natural weapons) From recollection I think it worked out to be somewhere over 50% crit before FB became better than rip on average.

That does match my recollection just after the patch came out of the tests being done on the test realms at the time. Feral agression and the amount of AC mitigation your target have will also tip the breaking point crit wise one way or the way on top of that plus the Mangle debuff should shift the balance substantially in Rip's favour come the expansion/content patch.

krucifix85 · 10/31/06, 9:27 PM

For the basic comparison of RIP vs FB:

Using the OP stats I got:
10% mitigation:
FB - Avg 1686.784943
RIP - 1545.72
FB on average (with the OP's gear) will hit for more.

at 15% mitigation:
FB - 1593.074669
RIP - 1545.72
FB still hits for more.

My calcs included the 15% FB talent. Natural Weapons. 5 extra energy being eaten on every FB.
Uses 0.24 as the AP scaler for RIP and 0.15 for FB.

Now you must also remember, that FB eats all your energy, RIP doesn't. That's not taken into account here, as my calcs only showed the pure figure's for which a 5CP finisher would hit.

Also, the Cat DPS Calculator ( http://tangedyn.275mb.com/cat-dps.php ) indicates that the OP will do more DPS using FB, than Rip.

Basically, i'm not sure where you got that 50% figure from Melthar, but it doesn't seem to add up.

Meddler · 10/31/06, 10:01 PM

Originally Posted by krucifix85

Using the OP stats I got:
10% mitigation:
FB - Avg 1686.784943

at 15% mitigation:
FB - 1593.074669

My calcs included the 15% FB talent. Natural Weapons. 5 extra energy being eaten on every FB.

Could I get some details on how you're calculating those values based off the OP values? Getting slightly different ones which is bothering me using the approach of:

FB
((AP*0.15 + FB base average)*Feral Agression*Natural Weapons

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1135*1.15*1.1

[top]1436 average pre crit on zero mitigation targets, so 1957 average assuming a 36.25% crit rate as specified. 1761 then on average incorporatin crit on a target with 10% AC mitigation.

Edit: Just realised I haven't got the 5 extra energy being eaten by FB in here which would make up some, but not all, of the difference.

Rip by contrast I get a similar though still slightly different value
(AP0.24 + Rip base)Natural Weapons

(2123*0.24 +942)*1.1
=1597

Regarding the 50% crit figure quoted I'm assuming that was as a reference to the relationship of 0.15 and 0.24 disregarding the Feral agression bonus and the base damage both abilities have. At extremely high AP levels where that base damage that is able to crit in the case of FB is a insignificant proportion of the total damage I would expect 50% crit to be the break even point with the extra 15% FB damage talent, under present conditions this definitely isn't an issue though on low AC targets.

Edit: On the subject of 4 vrs 5 combo point FB - call me daft but just realised that the FB-4/FB-5 options on the dps calculator may actually refer to the rank of Ferocious Bite not the number of combo points which does open that issue up again if so.

Assuming that is what's actually represented there then http://tangedyn.pbwiki.com/Cat%20Fight%20Patterns is the best thing I've been able to find, based off the older Cat Simulator though which from memory wasn't quite as accurate (don't know details of why). Does still favour FB5 slightly especially once the risk of losing energy on a miss/converting extra energy more often is taken into account.

krucifix85 · 10/31/06, 10:26 PM

Sorry, I put the talents of NW and FA in before I did the AP scaling. (I tacked the AP scaling on afterwards, so the order was wrong).

Your figure's are correct, which tip the scales further in FB's favour at the OP gear level.

(~20% Mitigation, both Finishers deal the same damage, anything less, is in FB's favour)

Melthar · 10/31/06, 11:38 PM

The 50% figure was probably my own calculations, which does not include the 15% to FB talents.

Checking against the cat sim, this looks to the case, with 1DPS difference at 50% crit/2200AP/5hit on 10% DR..

So without FA, rip's your best bet. with FA, FB takes over.

Drac · 11/01/06, 2:14 AM

Originally Posted by Zyla

Theres a 1 sec GC on shifting. Whats fun is that if you can swap in a 2h, you can make it obey your 1 sec attack speed if you time it correctly when you shift out. As soon as you shift out you could swing a 3.80 instantly. I almost wonder if you could macro in a gear swap so i could swing, say a tuf when i shift out after the bite.

An interesting thought, but I found that when shifting back to cat, you wont start attacking again until the delay of your 2 hand weapon passes. So for instance, you shift out, swing TUF, shift back to cat, then you have to wait 3.8 seconds before you start auto attacking again, may not be worth the weapon swap.

Like everyone is mentioning, 5 shreds then FB is the optimal cycle, I don’t use rip because its not that much higher, and its not worth the debuff slot to me. FB will pass it in DPS when you get enough crit as well.

Im not sure if Blizzard intended for powershifting to increase DPS, but if you use it at least once after every combo, a Wolfshead helm will boost your DPS much more than southwind. The trick is, how much shifting can you do a fight before going oom? Fully raid buffed, using rune, and popping mana potions etc you can shift after every 3-4 combo points and probably last all of the patchwerk fight, maybe even shifting more frequently than that. Once you get the hang of powershifting you can try to time the shifts between energy ticks so you lose no energy, if you want to push your DPS to higher levels you’ll want to get as many shifts in as possible…..anyways…

If you cant tell, I like powershifting, I have spent a lot of time modeling it and studying Cat DPS, in fact Tangedyn got the idea on how to model blood frenzy off my formula, Tang then vastly simplified the horrid equation I used to model it, thanks to him/her? with the new simplified equation it was much easier to make changes to shifting DPS. If anyone is interested I compiled it all into a visual basic program that I have posted here before, its been updated a lot since then though, it basically lets you chose the gear/buff/talent/enchant/dps cycle (including powershifting) set-up you want and shows you what your DPS would be, among many other things.

If people want to see the code to edit I may be able to upload the source.

Download: http://www.savefile.com/projects/888616

Mu · 11/01/06, 2:20 AM

Powershifting is but a pale shadow of what it once was...swiftshifting 60% reduction, wolfshead helm and no furor delays were pretty nice in the pre-1.8 days. Probably not worth even bothering with it now though. Natural shifter is hard to fit in a PVE feral build too.

I'd like to DPS on patchwerk, just to see what I'm capable of, despite the fact that I'd probably get wrecked even with damn near close to the best feral gear in the game (our mages and rogues are absurd). But we've had healer attendance issues lately so even though im pure feralol build right now I'd be stuck healing.

GamingManiac · 11/01/06, 2:28 AM

We've thrown around the idea that if any DPS app can't beat Mu on patchwerk (or me for that matter, although my gear's nowhere as complete as Mu's), that app gets denied. More of a joke than a serious thing, Mu could and would beat our warlocks and maybe some lazy hunters so it's not necesssarily fair. :)

Ah well. Not like I'd ever get to DPS Patchwerk anytime soon. Lack of shamans lately + chain heal strat = ftl. We still one-shot them, but we need every shaman we got on pumping out those heals. All that enhancement gear sitting in my bags make me weep.

Torel · 11/01/06, 2:47 AM

Originally Posted by krucifix85

Now you must also remember, that FB eats all your energy, RIP doesn't. That's not taken into account here, as my calcs only showed the pure figure's for which a 5CP finisher would hit.

This is actually a plus when using FB for powershifting. You want to utilize 100% of your present energy, shift/shift, be back at 60 energy (or 80 if using wolfshead) within the 2-second global cooldown. Any residual energy is wasted. You can do this with rip also, you end up with a forced longer cycle as you wait for energy to drop to zero or something less than 5 due to shred/rip expendatures.

Has anyone actually done some calcs on 4-point versus 5-point FB recently assuming raid-buffed crit numbers? 36-39% crit is fairly standard for a fully buffed feral druid. You are approaching 2/5 probability of loosing a combo point if you shred agian on a 4-point stack. That equates to (ROUGHLY!!!) 2/5*300 damage loose over a long duration. Given that, it actually seems rather close either way. Hmm...

Here is some practical experience though with this strat: You really want to manage your mana. This means similar principles as managing the 5-second rule when healing. Go for long regen cycles when low to maximize your out-of-5secRule-time. In that respect, the 5-point FB strat may end up being overall more solid.

Powershifting is no-joke in terms of added DPS. It is like a mana-based adrenaline rush. You can expect to get between 50 and 90 extra sustained DPS from that tactic on a long fight depending on the strategy you employ and how efficient you are. In terms of short term burst DPS, it is incredible and can boost your output by much more than that. It is also a fantastic way to utilize gear like genesis with respect to converting mana to damage in what is a not-too inefficent manner.

Here is the catch though - it is very very timing sensitive. If you are not doing the 0-60 energy thing reliably each time you are not realizing the potential. It is really only useable when you can set up in a static position and get into a rythym with respect to the timings.

Drac · 11/01/06, 3:03 AM

Originally Posted by Torel

Has anyone actually done some calcs on 4-point versus 5-point FB recently assuming raid-buffed crit numbers? 36-39% crit is fairly standard for a fully buffed feral druid. You are approaching 2/5 probability of loosing a combo point if you shred agian on a 4-point stack. That equates to (ROUGHLY!!!) 2/5*300 damage loose over a long duration. Given that, it actually seems rather close either way. Hmm...

Sadly only 4-point rip, 5-point rip, and the 2 different ranks of Ferocious bite at 5 points...see the link I posted earliar. Heres some numbers based off of ideal feral gear (atiesh etc), buffed to obscene levels on alliance side with onyxia buff off that calculator:

2779 AP
45.8% crit
5% to hit
and using Rune of Meta

vs

Lvl 63 mob with
8.6% miss
8.6% dodge
10% armor reduction

Shred -> 5 point rip: 677.11
Shred -> 4 point rip: 677.97
Shred -> 5 point rip -> shift: 736-807.7
Shred -> 4 point rip -> shift: 753.99-849.35 dps (note dps is inflated because you shift more frequently with 4 points after a combo)
Shred -> 5 point FB (rank 5): 689.26
Shred -> 5 point FB (rank 5) -> shift: 751.56-819.25

Edit: These calculations include Omen procs, so are a little bit higher than what Tang's model would show

darthgrimm · 11/01/06, 4:14 AM

THe whole : Is a feral druid a viable tank for HS dmg was a joke seeing that we had about 20 of those threads on these forums...

Some ppl didnt get it... ^^

Boevis · 11/01/06, 9:17 AM

Rip will get knocked off on Patchwerk, let the Warlocks have their debuffs.

If you guys keep JoW on the mob, I'd say go with Wolfshead Helm, otherwise you're going to be spending so much time in Cat regenning mana that Southwind/Furors/PvP Helm beat out Wolfshead.

I've always been a fan of the 4 point finisher for both energy efficiency and maximizing combo points. With over 33% Crit, you'll average 4 combo points from 3 Shreds, and have 16 energy in remainder after the 3rd shred, making it ideal to FB after the next tic. The energy-Damage conversion with FB is pathetic, and I prefer wasting as little energy on it as possible.

When powershifting, tying a weaponswap macro to a TUF with Crusader and taking the free swing will give you more DPS than not doing it. Getting a hit for 826-955 with a chance to proc for +100 Str is well worth losing 2 auto attacks in catform (you already lose 1.5 + lag seconds switching back to catform, so the time cost of TUF is only <2.3 seconds.)

alfredo · 11/01/06, 9:31 AM

If you guys keep JoW on the mob, I'd say go with Wolfshead Helm

Since a druid in cat form doesn't have a mana bar, JoW doesn't proc. :(

krucifix85 · 11/01/06, 4:51 PM

Originally Posted by alfredo

If you guys keep JoW on the mob, I'd say go with Wolfshead Helm

Since a druid in cat form doesn't have a mana bar, JoW doesn't proc. :(

On this point, i'd also like to note that BoW and Mage Blood Potion's (the zg craftable pot, that regens mana) don't work in feral forms either.

The best (and only?) way to improve your regen, would be to get the ZG Zanza (+50stam, +50spir) and a Gordok Green Grog, oh and the Argent Dawn Water (I doubt the BL spirit buff would stack with the ZG Zanza, and you'd get the Str / Agi one, anyway).

Basically, Spirit will enhance our feral regen, while mfs will not.
Well, this used to be the case when I roughly tested it a long time ago, if it's been changed, i'd be happy to be wrong.

edit:
Fantastic Calc Drac. I was using the old DSv1.0 yesterday for my testings. Tangedyn doesn't have your updated calc linked anywhere.
The amount of Burst DPS possible, is quite astounding. The number's are really amazing (Around 1000 burst DPS with decent, attainable gear).
Now to get a Rune of Metamorphisis for my alt... ><

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[top](21230.15 + 817)1.15*1.1