Boevis

From the standpoint of an AQ guild, getting +9 Hit on excelent items isn't difficult at all, and we only need +6. Misses shouldn't be happening on standard bosses.

I remember hearing something like 14 AP = +1 Damage on finishers. Doesn't seem unreasonable, the current 2.5k = 178 damage * 10% NW = +196 damage for rip * 1.15 (FA) = +225 damage for FB.

 

◊ blindworld

An omen of clarity proc on the last shred can have the same effect.

 

• Cluey

Actually to never miss as a druid against 63's you need 9% to miss.
I used to run MC as a feral druid and tested this quite extensively. It changed around the 1.10 patch, before that 6% was enough.
Initially I topped the damage as people were too timid and pulling threat got you lots of bad attention from the organisers, as a result nobody pushed it :(
After a few weeks the competition got stronger and the clear times came down, it was good :)

I used to do ZG and RAQ feral as well and did very well on damage, I respecced into a healbot for BWL/TAQ and haven't got to do DPS in a raid for a long time now.
The competition certainly wasn't first class, at least I assume it wasn't seeing as how belittled feral DPS is everywhere and now I have moved onto a more serious group I can see the potential of rogues but as a healbot again I have no idea how well I could compare.

I always went with shreds and rip on bosses which bled, trash was FB's although sometimes there would be no time for a finisher. We could use with a finisher which gave us some way of transferring combo points like S&D does.
If I got an OOC proc with reasonable energy I would use TF for three shreds with it up, not 100% on that being worth it but my damage was quite good compared to those I was running with.

 

Maynard

What's the exact maths behind Tiger's Fury being ineffective? I've got two druids, but admittedly little raid experience with either, and I was under the impression that you could do the following. I don't have the hardcore math skills of others so feel free to critique my theorycraft:

100 energy, hit Tiger's Fury
Tick 70 energy, tick immediately afterwards for 90 energy - if timed right.

This gives you 90 energy and slightly under 6 seconds of TF, so 130 energy all up. Enough for 2 shreds during TF, and 6 auto-attacks.

That's 6*40=240 damage from autoattacks, and 2.25*2*40=180 damage. So all up, you get 420 damage for 30 energy. 14 damage per energy (d.p.e.)

For Imp Shred, it would have to deal 14*48 = 672 damage to be equal to TF. Subtract the 180 flat modifier and you have 492 damage, fudge another 200 damage for the value of combo points for FB/Rip, divide that by the 2.25 modifier and you have ~129 autoattacks.

If (and that's a big 'if') my maths is correct, does that mean under ideal circumstances, a druid doing more than 129 unmitigated white DPS should never use TF over shred?

...And logging in on my 59 Druid, he's doing nearly that much white DPS even at his gear level. I think I understand the maths now. It's interesting though that, when he hits 60, a TF->Shred cycle may be marginally better.

 

Meddler

Unless you're in pure resto gear and trying to dps for some reason it's seldom worth considering Tiger Fury any time other than before a Ravage (minor exceptions when running towards a target and already on full energy or similar situations). Given it doesn't scale in the slightest the better your gear the bigger the gap between it and shred/Mangle soon.

 

Boevis

Catform is limited by Energy, TF costs energy and Doesn't scale. Early Endgame, it's effective, but by the time you've got DFT, HoBF (or MoUL), and other BWL/AQ20 gear, it's just not worth the energy.

Please, consider the following:
TF adds +40 damage for 6 seconds, I'll assume you have NW.
At a 1.0 Attack Speed this means it's adding (40*6*(1+crit%)*1.1) White Damage
If you wait until you have 66+ Energy before hitting TF, you can land 2 Shreds in your Time Limit. 2*(40*2.25*(1+crit%)*1.1)
If you have 30% Crit chance this means TF adds 343 White damage, and 257 Shred damage = 600 Damage = 20 Damage per Energy. If OOC procs and you get 3 Shreds in, TF increases to 24.3 DPE

At 48 Energy cost, Shred has to do an average of 960 damage to match TF's DPE. At 2000 AP, Shred has an average damage of ((((2000/14)+50)*2.25)+180)*1.1*1.3 = 878 damage (or 18.3 DPE). However, Shred also provides a combo point for your eventual Finisher, thus you need to increase it's DPE by 1/5 of your finishing moves DPE (With 2000 AP, FB is 40 DPE) So Shred is actually 26.3 DPE because of the combo point it adds.

Even with an OOC Proc, Shred wins out with a high AP.

(Im unable to check, but I assumed cat's average damage is 50 before the effects of AP, I am very likely wrong)

 

• Zyla

i think its 61dps boevis, but i cant back that up with a citation at the moment.

We don't use words like that...St. Louise is listening!

 

Melthar

55ish before NW so Zyla's pretty much spot on. :)

 

◊ Lord BEEF

I'm really curious now to see what DPS we're capable of with the most recent change.

I'd love to see a calculator that shows three attack cycles:

1) Mangle until 5 cp, rip (Solo dps)

2) Mangle, shred until 5 cp, rip, then mangle (or maybe mangle then rip, not sure which would be better)

3) Shred to 5 cp and rip, assuming mangle debuff is constantly up from another druid

Essentially I'm curious to see the difference between how much dps a cat can do solo, standard raid, and raid where a bear is tanking.

Check out my friend's bitchin' Lord of the Rings Art

 

yossarin

I read somewhere that druids do not benefit from +hit gear, yet in the thread you guys assume it can be a significant help.

Second thing, once we are on druid dps topic, does any1 know if you can somehow reduce the glancing blows frequency?
Rogues/warriors get their +swords points, but druids cant really use anything similar, can they?

http://ctprofiles.net/1704153

 

sulliwan

Druids get benefit from +hit just like a 2h warrior or a hunter do, so they don't need as much of it as any dualwielding class but up to the amount needed it's just as effective as +crit.

And no, there's no equivalent for +weapon skill for druids in the game right now, however you cannot reduce glancing blow frequency no matter what, you can just reduce the damage you lose to the glancings with +skill items :P

 

Feorthas

I've been thinking of coding up a pretty generic attack cycle tool of sorts; if there's some additional interest, I can put some actual time/thought into getting a prototype out the door with some generic cycles built in. Anyone else interested?

Upside is that I've been toying with the idea of going entirely OO so you can make some files for other classes and plug them in with a minimum of work but that'll obviously take longer than simply making something that works for a cat (or a single class).

I am not your personal Frost Deathknight knowledge base. If you have a simple question, ask in the simple questions thread; if you have a more esoteric, specific, or complicated question, ask in the spec-appropriate thread.

My PM, WoWmail, and, especially, chat boxes are NOT the appropriate places for these questions.

 

Beorn24

Yeah, new druid attack cycles would be very interesting to see with the latest changes to feral DPS in beta. The ones that really matter are:
- Shredding Attacks now reduces shred's energy cost to 42
- Mangle now adds 30% shred damage as well as 30% bleed damage, and has had it's DPS boosted

With this information, would the best druid idol be the one that currently reduces the mangle energy cost to 37? If this was the case, you could shred/mangle in a certain order so that your DPS would always be going off of a 40 energy sequence. What I mean is, if you mangle, and then shred and then mangle again, you can always have an attack, either mangle or shred, ready to go every time you have 40 energy. Two mangle's leaves you 6 energy short of 40 energy, which allows for 3 shreds (theoretically) at which time you would rip. Once you get back to 40 energy, it would be the same thing; mangle, shred, mangle, shred, shred or mangle, mangle, shred, shred, shred.

I guess what I'm getting at is, would the new best Feral DPS cycle, at least come expansion and with the use of the cat form energy reducing idol, would be:
Two Mangle's per 3 shreds for energy efficiency OR
Would it be better to have the damage boosting shred idol?

 

Iol

I'd be curious to see Druid's cat dps now that they can get WF totem... on a side note: a feral druid in my guild says: "I can tank, i can heal too. But i heal tanks cause tanks suck at healing me."

You can get much further with a kind word and a gun than with a kind word alone.

 

Boevis

Thanks to a 1.0 Attack Speed, I can't see Windfury being better for catform than GoA is, the change is (as far as catform is concerned) simply a means to not punish a feral druid for being in a Melee group anymore (edit: nevermind, math says Windfury is burly)

Windfury Totem 5: (average damage + (445/14)) * 1.1 * crit%. With 3000 AP and 35% crit, this is a hit for ~445. 20% Chance to occur with 5 attacks every 4 seconds (assuming the above 2 mange 3 shred average) = 112 DPS ... (Am I doing this math right? over +100 DPS?) That's going to be at level 70.
GoA doesn't seem to get a new rank :(

 

• Cluey

any1 ?
Its only two more key presses to type anyone, this is a forum not an SMS. You have a keyboard, use it.

As for the rest of your post a little research would get you more info and help you stop spreading BS.

 

Meddler

Sounds about right relative to the sort of numbers dual weilding rogues currently get, very much looking forward to WF - particularly since as someone pointed out the other day because the extra attacks are now yellow (special) damage they don't (shouldn't I should say - anyone able to confirm in beta?) suffer glancing blows either so are in effect more valuable than a normal auto attack.

 

• squiffy

My impressions of solo dps (level 61 so no maim yet), with around 1200 AP self buffed and 24% or so crit.

Peaked at 630 dps with a nice crit string finishing with a 2100 FB.

Normally around 350 dps.

Only really used Rip on mobs that had a low health flee mechanism, so I'd just let them run off and bleed to death, otherwise most things didn't last long enough to get a 5 point Rip running full course.

This is just solo grinding on stuff in Hellfire, 60 to 63 mobs.

 

◊ Lorewanderer

Druids do get benefit from +hit gear, but the benefit isn't anywhere as much as with many classes, as the majority of our damage is yellow (no glancing on yellow? I'm not certain but believe that's the case), but most importantly it is that if a CP-generating move misses/is dodged/parried we don't lose the energy so can just do it again.

The CC cloak/ring/mace set bonus is awesome because it makes it effectively the same for our finishing moves.


On the topic of BC attack cycles--yes, please! I'd love to see some calculations on it.

 

Jaete

Right now, no. In the expansion: http://thottbot.com/beta?i=13907

Guessing feral skill rating will work just the same as weapon skill ratings.

 

Lavode

+Hit does not affect glancing, it is effectively -miss, and yes, feral druids do benefit fully from it, up to the point where you have so much you no longer miss at all. Optimal cycles for cat dps: On Trash-that-may-well-die-before-5-CP mangle/shred mix then bite is probably the best choice by a large margin to keep CP generation optimal and then get it spent. on long fights, Mangle only to keep the debuff up, lots of shred, and rip at 5 points. Both 4 point ripping, and ferocious bite seem like they would be bad ideas on anything which isn't going to drop dead any second now, since they both cost energy you could be using on übershred. Manglebuffed shred is just too dam good for it to make sense to spend energy on, well, anything else.

 

Evert

Torel you're back on Terenas?
and lumine zomg! terenas druid unite!

More on topic, I have been wondering about mana/5 and feralz for awhile now. and wether they got it to work in forms on not. Anyone have anything conclusive? I dont really know of a good way to test it

\"Listen, I\'m trying to have a serious conversation about ferret bras and you are not listening\"

 

• Zyla

i do remember a buzz about it in like patch 1.8 or so actually working...it probably doesn't work now though. I remember a time where it definitely did work.

We don't use words like that...St. Louise is listening!

 

◊ Oggie

What kind of sexual favors are required to get a functional shaman dps calculator? *grin*


For those curious about WF- it's a %-increase, so the higher 'white' dps the more damage you do, always...the biggest advantage with a faster weapon is it will be a steady constant increase, not streaky or amazingly bursty (trust me, NOT a good thing in pve, ask your local splattered enhance).

As it stands right now, WF adds white attacks, so they can glance and do generate rage. Same mechanic as live atm. The no glancing stuff is selfbuff only.

 

Feorthas

Considering it's a 'something to do at work when I'm bored, with nothing to do, at work' project right now... I guess I could spend some more time on it. I've gotten some framework done, I have some old file Input/Output classes I'm going to use, but making a pretty GUI is just about the last thing on my list as GUIs and me do not get along very well.

I've almost got functional 'class' and 'attack' classes--I'm coding this up in Java--so I might have something working for pre-built attack cycles in the near future. The long-term plan is to set everything up so the app figures out for itself what the best cycle would be, given a class with specific stats and a list of possible attacks, but that's well out of reach at the moment.

I am not your personal Frost Deathknight knowledge base. If you have a simple question, ask in the simple questions thread; if you have a more esoteric, specific, or complicated question, ask in the spec-appropriate thread.

My PM, WoWmail, and, especially, chat boxes are NOT the appropriate places for these questions.