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11/01/06, 10:13 AM
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#31
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Bald Bull
Drauk
Human Mage
No WoW Account
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Originally Posted by Glass
I don't buy the whole "the people that stay now are an indication of who will be valuable in tbc". TBC will change everything, the way the game is played, the incentives, the manpower, the reward system, everything. People sticking it out now or leaving will have little if anything to do with what happens when people start hitting the 68-70 timeframe.
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There is some baseline qualities that makes good guild member. Caring for other guildies and the guild as a whole is one of them.
When you see that somebody just don't give a damn about the guild or people with whom he has played for 1.5 years - you don't want to see this kind of people in your guild. No matter what kinda of raid game awaits us.
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Originally Posted by zeidrich
Women's breasts can be modeled as a cone and measured as V = (Db^2*h*.785)/3 and since breasts can be thought of as an amorphous fluid, you just have to worry about containing the volume of the breast.
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11/01/06, 10:17 AM
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#32
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Glass Joe
Night Elf Druid
Kael'thas
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This tore up our guild weeks ago. Our guild was a bunch of small groups playing together...we never had our own identity, really. I was kind of blind to it before things started to unravel, but it became quite plain later. Lots of people transferred to play with friends, or left temporarily to raid with other guilds till TBC is out.
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We have seen the exact same issue. We were a rebuild guild from the server woes of several months ago. We ended up with a very competent group that was blazing through content - with absolutely no core identity. Lots of transfers from lots of locations. Therefore, between a performance slump, pre-BC woes, and some growing pains, we went into a self-defeating downspin of attendance which led to serious morale problems.
The point: Make sure that you develop a guild culture. Make sure you have most of your people there for skill/content progression and not only loot. Do your best to assemble a group that actually likes each other. You can glue any group together for a while. If you have incredible leadership, they can pull the group through lots of stuff through pure energy. However, the only surefire way to make a guild last is through having the people connect and build a liking for each other. Not everyone has to like each other, but you must have a critical mass.
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11/01/06, 10:38 AM
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#33
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besides... it's all in the reflexes.
Glassjaw
Orc Rogue
No WoW Account
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Originally Posted by Drauk
There is some baseline qualities that makes good guild member. Caring for other guildies and the guild as a whole is one of them.
When you see that somebody just don't give a damn about the guild or people with whom he has played for 1.5 years - you don't want to see this kind of people in your guild. No matter what kinda of raid game awaits us.
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I don't know. I have a hard time blaming people that have 100% attendance over a year of raiding getting frustrated with 32 people showing up on raid night repeatedly, cutting thier losses and taking a break. These people are the ones that broke thier backs to get through the content that is now on farm status and I think they probably deserve a break from it, especially when the people that need gear aren't interested in raiding because the xpac is too close.
The people that broke thier backs on the old content are going to do it in tbc, they just won't be doing it with 20+ people that are interested in one thing.
The problem are not the few people that "don't give a damn". You're better off without them. The problem is where the people that "don't give a damn" leave the people that do want to continue. At this point recruiting and training new people means you are going to pretty much break even as far as progression goes. It's a catch 22 that you really can't blame anyone for.
Had there not been so much info about the itemization so early we may not have this problem. But the reality (whether we like it or not) is that alot of the raiding public is in it for the gear, which there's just way too much info about betawise. It may not be the majority of raiders in it just for gear, but the number that are, unfortunately, are more than enough to cause a big dent in many guild's progression.
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11/01/06, 10:39 AM
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#34
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Piston Honda
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Originally Posted by Torel
However, the only surefire way to make a guild last is through having the people connect and build a liking for each other. Not everyone has to like each other...
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Yea this is what I was trying to say without knowing it. It's also possibly the most difficult thing to do...ever. Mostly IMO it happens by luck, having those couple of people that somehow glue people together without really doing it on purpose. You know the ones...if they get burned out or are down, everyone else notices and feels down, too. In our situation, these people got burned out and everyone could feel it. Even though nobody quit trying, there was just this air of "i give up" and it spread around quickly.
I have a ton to say about these issues, but it's just a post I don't feel like writing...not that I have time to do it anyway. Basically, you can see what happens if this type of thing happens to your guild, but no matter how much I explain or write, none of it will really matter except that advice at the top of this post. Connecting your members to each other, giving them an identity, and making them feel at home has to be #1. Even if that home has a bit of peeling paint and some water damage in the basement, and that asshole big brother who has the room you really want is stealing your toys, you can still find a way to have fun times as a family in it, right? Otherwise, you'll never really have anything...you'll just be a bunch of random people who killed some stuff together one time.
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11/01/06, 10:59 AM
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#35
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Soda Popinski
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Originally Posted by Arawethion
Something I've been seeing recently which seems related to this: a sudden appearance of cross-server apps to our guild. As of a few weeks ago, we'd never seen one at all, now we've had a few in the past few days. Is this happening to other guilds who wouldn't have guessed themselves to be well-known enough to stand out to a person who's choosing amongst the entire server wide crop of guilds?
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We've had an influx of cross server apps.... coming home.
Oh we've always had a trickle of cross server apps (Our recruitment folks are good at fetching them and cross server blood has kept us alive) but in the last week we've had a ton new apps all who are coming back to Skywall after rerolling alliance on another server after the horde top guild crashed and burned 9 months ago.... now their alliance guild on another server crashed out and we've got a handful of them looking to come back to skywall- alliance style. We've also picked up one of our warriors who left server right after server transfers opened looking for something new and better... and didn't find what he was looking for. It's kinda wierd to be truthful, but not alltogether bad (we were drying up on apps for a short bit and now have a windfall)
Cross server apps seem to find us though... I never know exactly how or why they pick Skywall, but our officers occasionally joke that eventually we'll have brought enough new blood to Skywall to create our own rival guild. I suspect some of them find us through places like this, some of them find us on RnD, some of them find us through word of mouth. An officer had a friend who wanted to transfer, gave him our name... he told his warrior friend about us. He came as well.
Where you find one cross server app- you usually find 2-3 others willing to follow along.
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Those of you who volunteered to be injected with praying mantis DNA, I've got some good news and some bad news.
Bad news is we're postponing those tests indefinitely. Good news is we've got a much better test for you: fighting an army of mantis men.
Pick up a rifle and follow the yellow line. You'll know when the test starts.
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11/01/06, 11:32 AM
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#36
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Von Kaiser
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Originally Posted by Blackpatch
It don't matter. I'll be all around in the Outlands - I'll be everywhere. Wherever you can look - wherever there's a roll, so pubbie people can loot, I'll be there. Wherever there's a mob beatin' up a tank, I'll be there. I'll be in the way priests Fear when they're mad. I'll be in the way orcs laugh when they're bored and they know the pull is ready, and when the people are lootin' the stuff they kill and PvPin' in the gear they loot - I'll be there, too.
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I lol'd muchly.
On a more serious note, perhaps this is my chance to bring up a question that's been on my mind for awhile. Surely there are some players like me, that spread their raiding efforts across several characters, who have a good attitude and mindset, who know every raid encounter in the game with the exception of the last few bosses in Naxx, and who theorycraft like it's going out of style. We may not have the best gear, we may not even have anything past t2, but that doesn't mean we don't know our s@#$. We're more or less blocked from recruitment in the Naxx+ guilds at this point because of the simple equation gear = experience + knowledge + dedication. But that equation isn't -always- true.
Maybe this is the point in time where some of us can get chances to find solid guild homes for TBC and further down the line. "Vanilla WoW" loot is at its lowest importance ever due to the incoming level 61 and above gear. Have we reached a moment where the quality of the person behind the screen is significantly more important than the (current) quality of the character?
No, this isn't intended to be a 'recruit me plz gief epix' post. I'm just interested in opinions, as I'm somewhat deciding whether to play WoW at all pre-TBC dependent on whether or not it looks like I have a shot in a guild that has C'thun and below on farm. There's just no real point in farming MC and BWL with people who are still learning them when I've seen those encounters a thousand and one times. Not to be mean, it's just not a productive or enjoyable use of my available raiding time.
Thoughts / comments / beatdowns?
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11/01/06, 12:50 PM
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#37
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Don Flamenco
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Originally Posted by Lucit
That being said, it does seem like guilds that don't have a chance at getting KT down pre-expansion are taking it easy until the expansion. This isn't necessarily a bad thing for every guild, especially given how much burnout AQ40 caused. There's less loot drama too, since nobody cares about this level 60 Tier 3 junk anymore. ;)
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I think the delay has actually given some guilds a brief respite on being able to finish Naxxramas. That, coupled with patch 1.13 which will give us the new 41 point talent trees gives me renewed hope that my guild can actually get Kel'Thuzud down before the expansion. On the previous schedule it just wasn't going to happen. But toss another 5% health on your tanks and give them devastate, up your mage dps with the new talent trees, etc., etc. and Naxxaramas is going to get a lot easier. So we're ploughing ahead as before, with maybe a renewed lease on life pre-xp.
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11/01/06, 12:57 PM
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#38
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Von Kaiser
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And I guess as a follow-up on my earlier question: despite all the concern about people dropping off from high end raiding guilds through burnout or discouragement due to incoming TBC, are there -really- any Naxx guilds that are hurting for raiders at this point? Where they hit a progression night and they have 35, 38 raiders on, and they're really needing new blood?
Somehow I doubt that it's very common.
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11/01/06, 1:00 PM
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#39
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Soda Popinski
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Originally Posted by Valarauko
And I guess as a follow-up on my earlier question: despite all the concern about people dropping off from high end raiding guilds through burnout or discouragement due to incoming TBC, are there -really- any Naxx guilds that are hurting for raiders at this point? Where they hit a progression night and they have 35, 38 raiders on, and they're really needing new blood?
Somehow I doubt that it's very common.
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Yes. Yes it happens, and I think it's more common than some would like to believe.
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Those of you who volunteered to be injected with praying mantis DNA, I've got some good news and some bad news.
Bad news is we're postponing those tests indefinitely. Good news is we've got a much better test for you: fighting an army of mantis men.
Pick up a rifle and follow the yellow line. You'll know when the test starts.
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11/01/06, 1:02 PM
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#40
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Piston Honda
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Originally Posted by Valarauko
And I guess as a follow-up on my earlier question: despite all the concern about people dropping off from high end raiding guilds through burnout or discouragement due to incoming TBC, are there -really- any Naxx guilds that are hurting for raiders at this point? Where they hit a progression night and they have 35, 38 raiders on, and they're really needing new blood?
Somehow I doubt that it's very common.
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It happens to us probably once a week, except we only get 30 on, sometimes even less.
Yes, we're small for a Naxx guild.
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11/01/06, 1:04 PM
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#41
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<Druid Trainer>
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Originally Posted by Valarauko
And I guess as a follow-up on my earlier question: despite all the concern about people dropping off from high end raiding guilds through burnout or discouragement due to incoming TBC, are there -really- any Naxx guilds that are hurting for raiders at this point? Where they hit a progression night and they have 35, 38 raiders on, and they're really needing new blood?
Somehow I doubt that it's very common.
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From what I gather, it's all over the place.
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11/01/06, 1:06 PM
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#42
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Piston Honda
Blood Elf Paladin
Mug'thol
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It has been happening to us as well. 60+ on T, Thu (the clear 9 bosses nights), while we have 45? on for the new/hard content days.
However, I believe much of this was due to the anticipated BC date of late Nov. With the announcement of a Jan release, we did have a more solid raid to take out Loatheb on Sun. A small sample to be sure, but I am once again hopeful for a cleared Naxx before BC release.
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11/01/06, 1:10 PM
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#43
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Von Kaiser
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So...
Anyone looking for a raider? I have a few 60's lying around, and (call me strange) tbh I don't really care what class I play in a raiding situation. I've played main tank, dps, support, and healer in most encounters through Nef. Past that on specific classes, but I'm comfortable with everything but Warlock. I've leveled a lock but never raided with him.
Again, if this is the wrong place to be even asking this question, tell me to hush... I wouldn't be asking at all if it weren't for the apparent dearth of capable and knowledgeable players in some of these guilds that I've respected and looked up to for a long time.
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11/01/06, 1:20 PM
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#44
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Piston Honda
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Tough one, there are a lot of points to be made about that here. I don't want to derail this, but it seems to fit.
I think for most guilds, there will be a lot more people asked to play more than one character on a regular basis. Keeping your guild smallish for 25 mans will mean some nights suffer from attendance in a certain class if people are continued to be restricted to one char only. Also, if blizz continues to make fights where coordination and strategy matter more than the gear, that flexibility will be that much more important.
I've always believed people who are skilled at multiple classes tend to be the best players. Sure there are exceptions, but the fact that my main is a mage and I have a warrior alt who's tanked most of BWL means I have a really good feel for threat, positioning, kiting, etc...but I've never played a healer.
As someone who has led raids in the past and will probably do it in TBC, I'll be rolling a healer just to gain that different perspective. Having played a mage for 2 years, even now just rolling a warlock alt has changed my perception of how they do damage drastically.
Experience with many classes would help a strategist or raid leader a ton, but to answer your question, I'd personally value you as a skilled player of multiple classes. Though, staying loyal to your class, perfecting your skills with it, and maxing out your gear also helps raids a lot. As a leader, you have to value people who are amazingly good at doing their thing, you just have to know what they're capable of so you can assign tasks well. Playing multiple classes can give you that ability.
You said it yourself though, spreading your efforts across several chars means none of them have the gear to satisfy recruiters. but bleh, i've seen ppl in T2 outdps AQ/Naxx geared people on a regular basis. I can be #1 over maexxna's fang rogues on my alt warrior. So yeah, the player matters more than the gear sometimes, but not in all situations. I'd recruit someone like you, as long as you weren't trying to raid with 3-4 chars >.>
What does that have to do with this thread? IMO it means these are the people you want to keep around (or recruit more of) if your guild is falling apart because they'll give you the flexibility you need in TBC.
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11/01/06, 1:29 PM
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#45
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Mr. Sandman
Blood Elf Priest
Mal'Ganis
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Originally Posted by Valarauko
And I guess as a follow-up on my earlier question: despite all the concern about people dropping off from high end raiding guilds through burnout or discouragement due to incoming TBC, are there -really- any Naxx guilds that are hurting for raiders at this point? Where they hit a progression night and they have 35, 38 raiders on, and they're really needing new blood?
Somehow I doubt that it's very common.
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Yes. My guild cancelled Naxx 3 days out of 6 days last week, and when we did do hard content, we had to bring friends/unguilded/new people to Ouro, C'Thun, and Naxx. We killed C'Thun with 5 people who had never seen the fight, one druid who had never trained riding skill and didn't have a mount. We killed Patchwerk with two rogues, one of which had never seen the fight and had one piece of Bloodfang. We have cancelled at least one raid each week for the last three weeks.
We have been server-first on a release day server since molten core, and we are actively recruiting:
http://dp.hybridferret.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=7 (9 Naxx bosses down gogo)
I know the second-highest guild (Black Phoenix) had attendance shortages over the weekend, and a fairly static raid group that a lot of my friends are in (Late Night Raiders) is having attendance problems that it hasn't experienced in a year. Every raid group that I know of personally is having attendance problems.
That's my perspective :)
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