My take on Lana'thel is from the point of view of a 10 men strict player and thus some issues we had in our tries definitely won't be the same for 25 men player.
1. Berserk / Soft Enrage
We had some problems hitting the soft enrage and berserk timers due to a half-assed raid and the requirement of three healers. We used the gimmick of letting the second vampire die to buy us some time to hit the berserk timer, the DPS requirement being far too brutal without it. If you want to use it, don't bite an Affliction warlock, as long as they have Corruption on the boss they won't die, even standing in flames spamming Life Tap.
2. Threat
We discovered that Lana'thel bites the third player in her threat table the harsh way: after the first few attempts we lost some due to me (restoration druid) being bitten first. In the first seconds of the fight, when there isn't a lot of vampires, I have to blanket the raid with Rejuvenation (and the [Glyph of Rapid Rejuvenation]) and manage to have sub-25% overhealing. Vigilance and Hand of Salvation weren't enough to cover for that and we had to use a warlock securing the third place on her threat table with Searing Pain.
Suiciding a vampire so that you extend the soft enrage to the hard enrage time no longer works after the hotfix to increase the duration of the Essence.
For 25 man at least the apparently optimal path is now 1-2-4-8-16 where after 16 you have ~1 min to kill her before the hard enrage and then shortly after the MCs.
As for who gets bitten first it always seems to be our highest threat (besides the tank) though each time I looked it also corresponded to the highest damage at that point and possibly even the first person to hit her. It never looked like it was the third agro target though, at least not on 25 man.
As for who gets bitten first it always seems to be our highest threat (besides the tank) though each time I looked it also corresponded to the highest damage at that point and possibly even the first person to hit her. It never looked like it was the third agro target though, at least not on 25 man.
From what I saw tonight (only 3 attempts) it was the 3rd person on aggro. The threat table was always Tank/rogue/hunter.
Our hunter said that he could always get it as long as he didn't have to MD, and he got it everytime in ~5 10 man attempts and 3 25 man attempts.
In our attempts, she almost always bit one hunter, and only on two occasions someone else (another hunter and a mage). As far as I know, the Hunter who was bitten always misdirected to the tank, so I doubt position on the threat table plays a role in who she chooses to bite. Highest damage done in the first x seconds seems far more likely, as hunters do a lot of front loaded damage before the melees are even in range of her.
I don't think it's related to highest damage done within X seconds as during our attempts on Wednesday we had a Holy Paladin being bitten first twice out of 8 attempts. She was running with Righteous Fury up which coupled with high Holy Light crits could result in jumping up to 3rd on aggro (only one mob so no threat split).
On 4 out of 5 attempts last night we had the same Hunter being bitten first.
In our attempts, she almost always bit one hunter, and only on two occasions someone else (another hunter and a mage). As far as I know, the Hunter who was bitten always misdirected to the tank, so I doubt position on the threat table plays a role in who she chooses to bite. Highest damage done in the first x seconds seems far more likely, as hunters do a lot of front loaded damage before the melees are even in range of her.
The first post says that he got picked as a resto druid. I also witness a resto druid in our first 10 man attempt get it.
Sorry, must have missed that... also, looks like the hunter in question didn't misdirect after all (though he was told to), so highest threat after the tank seems the likely targetting mechanism for the first bite. Again, sorry for the misinformation.
I had old versions of charts indicating bite order for 10 and 25 man as well as the alternate (and then optimal) strategies using a sacrificed player. Now that is entirely unnecessary and I've updated the charts to reflect it coinciding perfectly with the 5:15 enrage timer.
In regards to the first bite mechanic, we tried several things to try and figure out the order. According to our experiences:
-It does not seem to be the player that has done the most damage by the 15 second mark.
Reasoning: I was highest and the second or 3rd highest was bitten. During these times I was not Misdirecting to the tank to try to be second in threat which means I wasn't hitting Blood Queen for the first ~2 seconds of the pull.
-It does not seem to be first on threat after the tank.
Reasoning: We had the other DPS delay popping cooldowns for the first 15 seconds except for me, and I was second in threat at all times after the pull up to the bite and was not chosen.
-It -may- be the related to something about the first hit on Lana'thel, however I can not explain how healers would have been bitten first.
Reasoning: We did get our last 4 pulls of the night to all have me bitten first. On the 3-2-1 countdown I was Misdirecting the tank and landed my initial Serpent Sting at "2" on the countdown to be sure to be the first non-tanking player to land an offensive ability and initiate the pull (rather than proximity aggro of the incoming main tank).
My only explanation of why a healer was bitten would be do to possibly a Judgement landing first or possibly the tank actually getting hit by the first melee swing and then technically the first non-npc ability to register threat was a HoT or if a buff proc possibly registered. But regardless, I can't really come up with a satisfactory reasoning behind it.
Ver logically, the two tanks should be DPSing as much as they can and thus providing the first two slots on the threat table. Then most likely a DPS should follow, or a healer who is pushing as much HPS as s/he can (this is not desired).
Ver logically, the two tanks should be DPSing as much as they can and thus providing the first two slots on the threat table.
Why should the 2nd tank be 2nd on the threat list?
He is tanking by proximity ... not by aggro. And all the raids using a warrior as an OT surely will confirm that said OT is nowhere near the top of the aggro table at any point of the encounter.
Anyway, from our experience we've ruled out the 2nd threat holder being the target of the first bite.
One rogue going all out (without using tricks) and getting an MD on top of that did not result in him being the first target. We even had a mage being bitten first who used his images on the pull.
In most of our tries it was a hunter or a mage. In very few cases it was a melee (I can remember only one ... where I intercepted early on the pull and had a deathwished crit streak + Taunka proc). So the first one to hit her (besides the tanks) seem the most plausible to me at the moment. That would not explain the resto druid being bitten first though.
Did he use fairy fire to debuff her on the pull?
-It does not seem to be first on threat after the tank.
Reasoning: We had the other DPS delay popping cooldowns for the first 15 seconds except for me, and I was second in threat at all times after the pull up to the bite and was not chosen.
Are you referring to 25man or 10man? because this is conflictual with what my experience is.
Over the six attempts we had yesterday @25man, we were always able to direct the first bite to whom we wanted to with misdirection, and it wasn't always the same person since we meddled around the consideration what would be more beneficial biting first between a ranged or a melee.
Hypothesis : Whoever is higher on threat that isn't either the tank nor the blood mirrored person.
Hypothesis two : second on threat for 25man, third for 10man?
Last edited by ciopo : 01/22/10 at 8:25 AM.
Reason: specifing my experience is of 25man
So what exactly has changed with the hotfix?
We downed her yesterday before the hotfix was applied, so I cannot check for myself.
"Blood Queen Lana’thel's Essence has a longer duration." Does that mean that you keep the debuff even on death? Then how is it handles with the bite phases? Are there still fixed bite phases (as in, you only have 50 seconds of DPS time)? What happens if a player with the debuff dies and gets resurrected?
// Edit
Ok, I actually misread the change. From the wording of it it seems to only last longer now, so what's the new time?
The most difficult thing for me on the encounter was biting a target when the shit hits the fan (e.g. the third target) and everything is chaotic. Sometimes the target I've chosen beforehand was in the middle because of the brain link, sometimes I simple couldn't find it because the melee camp is so terribly clumped up and the range of the bite is so ridiculously low, or sometimes simply another player bid my designated target and I stand there all fucked up, manically searching for another target not already bitten and not too far away.
Do you have any tips? Do you have a fixed bite order for every player?
Are there any addons that help with target aqcuisition? I suppose Grid might help here, but I'm not very eager to install Grid only for that.
I was bitten first on our yesterday attempt/kill in 10 man as an arcane mage with 40% threat reduction + vigilance. I was 5th on the agro table but first on damage done when I got bitten. Maybe it's based on the raw threat generated before any threat reducting talents or abilities?
I was bitten first on our yesterday attempt/kill in 10 man as an arcane mage with 40% threat reduction + vigilance. I was 5th on the agro table but first on damage done when I got bitten. Maybe it's based on the raw threat generated before any threat reducting talents or abilities?
This also seems plausible to me. We also had our Arcane Mage bit, as well as a rogue once that had up Trick of the Trade to for the first 10 seconds of the pull.
@Ciopio: I was referring to our experiences in 25 man, we didn't really get to experiment much with the mechanic in 10 man since we killed it on the second pull (however in both 10 man pulls it went to the Arcane Mage, although I was Misdirecting to the main tank and may not have been second on threat).
The fixed new time is 75 seconds on 10 man, and 60 seconds on 25 man. This means that you will not get a MC phase at all provided that you are taking a finite amount of time to bite people.
The corrolary to this is that the bite timing now coincides with the fears at the start of P2, meaning that you should either have your first vampire wait as long as possible to bite or they should bite almost instantaneously. The former is probably more manageable.
I was bitten first on our yesterday attempt/kill in 10 man as an arcane mage with 40% threat reduction + vigilance. I was 5th on the agro table but first on damage done when I got bitten. Maybe it's based on the raw threat generated before any threat reducting talents or abilities?
If this is true, it makes me wonder if Mirror Images would work. Having a mage pop MI and all of his or her cooldowns (and maybe a PI for good measure) at the very beginning to ensure being way ahead of everyone else should guarantee that the mage gets the first bite if it's based on pre-reduced threat. This would also be a very easy way to test the theory.
Unfortunately we won't be back in until Sunday, so that's the earliest I'll be able to test it out with our mage.
If this is true, it makes me wonder if Mirror Images would work. Having a mage pop MI and all of his or her cooldowns (and maybe a PI for good measure) at the very beginning to ensure being way ahead of everyone else should guarantee that the mage gets the first bite if it's based on pre-reduced threat. This would also be a very easy way to test the theory.
Unfortunately we won't be back in until Sunday, so that's the earliest I'll be able to test it out with our mage.
We only used a few of our pulls last night , but all 3 times we had an arcane mage that did exactly that. He was bitten first each time. I did not notice his reported threat at the time. He was definitely highest on damage done at that point (although that theory seems to be out the window), but if threat modifiers are ignored then it definitely adds weight to that theory.
We did 3 attempts in 10 man last night (while waiting for a GM to spawn the 25m version). The first first 2 times, she bit a Hunter first. The last time, we had all the DPS (except myself) hold off for 5s to try and get me bitten, and she bit a Resto Druid instead (who had pre-HOT'ed both tanks, and was the only one healing).
We did I think 5 attempts in 25 man before running out of time. I believe in 3 attempts she bit our better geared Hunter, once she bit the other Hunter, and once she bit a Mage.
It does appear that the "highest pre-reduction threat" theory could apply.
From what I've read so far in this thread im leaning towards a 'first on aggro table' theory as the first bitten. Here's my reasoning:
- Most accounts have it at mages and hunters being bitten first. Seeing as ranged get in before melee this would support the theory.
- Hunters are the most commonly reported in the thread (albeit anecdotal and small sample size). As most DPS give the tanks a couple seconds of threat gen before opening up while hunters will use MD as soon as or even before the MT hits the boss this would also support the theory.
- Non ranged people getting bitten reported in this thread have been a war (who mentioned he had an early charge) and rogue (who mentioned tricksing and DPSing early).
- Healers have also reported getting first bites, mostly druids. As I assume druids have the tank pre hotted, a hot tick right after engage would put them as the first person on the aggro list.
If this is all true then the best way to make sure you have a high dps get the first bite would be have a rogue or hunter MD/tricks as the first hit and avoid prehotting if possible.
- Non ranged people getting bitten reported in this thread have been a war (who mentioned he had an early charge) and rogue (who mentioned tricksing and DPSing early).
4 attempts out of 7 on 25man the picked target was me, with a misdirection assist from one of our hunter, and i was definetively not the top on damage done in the first 15-20 seconds, was just making sure i was the second on threat.
I was also "frontloading" damaging, going berserk -> shred to 5 cp then ferocious bite, which is suboptimal for DPS but strong on burst TPS
The two other attempts we reliabily laid the first bite to who we choosed to through misdirection assists.
One on a shadow priest, one on a mage.
On 10man, fresh from early this evening, out of four attempts, the very first time at which we "let it be whoever she want to" she bited our Resto druid, On every other attempt the choosen target was the shadow priest, with misdirection assist to him.
We did not attempt an "everybody hold aggro except him"
Last edited by ciopo : 01/22/10 at 7:09 PM.
Reason: typo
Is there any particular reason that some of the incoming abilities get around 60-70% partial resists? Twilight Bloodbolt, for example, has a tooltip damage of 10k, but in actuality only hits people for 3-4k with the rest showing up as resists. Likewise the fires that are left on the ground are supposed to tick for 4k but only end up hitting people for 1k.
There are also many pets on there with the usual 90% reduction but are still only taking about 1k base. Interestingly the ticks on the Ebon Gargoyle and Bloodworm look like they are the full 4k base, and Greater Fire Elementals are taking 2k base. These pets are the ones that are summoned after the start of the encounter so presumably they are not getting the same resistance buffs. It's possible that there is some spellshadow resistance double-dip mechanic at work here but on the other hand the twilight bloodbolt splash portion doesn't exhibit this behavior and hits people for 8-9k.
3rd player in aggro will be bitten first. If you have 1 player higher than your off tank, which means that your off tank is 3rd, she will bite the 4th because she ignores linked player.
We tried it 5 times, it worked that way, 100% approved.
How are people handling the healing in 10 man? The raid healing required is so much higher than any other fight in the game so far. I've seen logs where people are 2 healing it, and that seems insane, but maybe there is something my raid is missing.
We've tried Pal/Sham/Discpriest, and Pal/Sham/Rdruid, all in full 25 ToGC gear besides the Druid.
Are there any specific tips people can give for healing the encounter? We had the Druid blanketing the raid with HoTs, the Paladin on the tanks, and the Shaman healing the raid, specifically focusing on linked or swarmed players. Each healer was putting out over 7-8k hps, and whenever one of them had to move, people died.
Could it be that we had too many ranged DPS so we couldn't abuse Glyph of Holy Light and Chain Heal? We only had 1 Melee DPS. We were getting to about 50% with only 2 people bit, so the healing would probably get less intense later on I imagine, but healing-wise it seems to be overtuned right now, unless we're doing it drastically wrong.
01/22/10, 4:43 AM
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