ICC Crimson Halls - Blood Queen Lana'thel (Normal) - Page 11

Gofa · 01/28/10, 9:55 AM

Originally Posted by Elerion

I thought each point of healing generated 0.5 threat (ie half as much as a point of damage). Also, overheals shouldn't generate threat. 46% of those 147k healing were overheals.

The values shown in world of logs are without taking overhealing into account, only the non-overhealing heals are counted as healing done. Also note that said paladin had Righteous Fury active, increasing his threat further.

Sh4d0wfury · 01/28/10, 10:02 AM

All I can confirm is that it's not DPS related, as I managed to get bitten by using frost presence on the pull and mostly auto attacking.

If heals are included in the unreduced (rather than unmodified) threat, it could explain why resto druids are being bitten more often then other healing specs. Usually druids are just HoTing everyone, even overheals may be generating threat towards that.

Furion · 01/28/10, 10:23 AM

Originally Posted by Gofa

The values shown in world of logs are without taking overhealing into account, only the non-overhealing heals are counted as healing done. Also note that said paladin had Righteous Fury active, increasing his threat further.

Righteous Fury might actually work if it has been activated before the pull. Something like this might also explain why some mages won't get bitten (those who used MI before the pull) while others will (those who used MI after the pull). And this might also explain the example of a DK in frost presence getting bitten mostly from autoattacking or some reported inconsistencies about tricks and MD.

dr_AllCOM3 · 01/28/10, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by The Truculent Gentleman

All this talk of who gets bitten is missing the forest for the trees, in my opinion - knowing exactly who gets bitten is much less important than developing a repeatable strategy.

That's why I'm using a simple priority list in my BQL addon. You can order the raid before the fight. While fighting the vampires get the first possible target from that list. Vampires, their targets and you will be skipped. It's pretty simple and very dynamic.
Who gets bitten first is not very important, spreading the debuff smoothly in your raid is.

suicuique · 01/28/10, 11:02 AM

Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3

Who gets bitten first is not very important, spreading the debuff smoothly in your raid is.

While I agree with this statement *now*, I assume that having one of your healers being bitten first instead of the highest DD would result in a severe raid dps loss. I'd rather prepare now for the hard mode of this encounter by knowing exactly the mechanic behind the first bite, because knowing the first target *exactly* you could further optimise the positioning e.g.

Avrus · 01/28/10, 2:24 PM

Based on our attempts in 25 and 10 I firmly believe the mechanic is total damage (rather than DPS) + total healing (including overhealing - rather than HPS).

After 4 attempts I started to watch the recount total damage meters and look at the Omen threat meter at the time of the bite to determine which was the more consistent factor. In each case, the bite target was either at the top of the damage meter (again, not DPS - total damage done) or had pulled ahead 1 - 2 seconds prior to the bite. There was no consistency with where the bite target was on the threat meters. Our hunter was able to maintain first bite 6 times in a row by being top damage, and then was passed by an arcane mage on the 7th attempt who then was the bite target.

As this is anecdotal evidence, I will continue to test and observe tonight, tomorrow and Saturday during those raids (and parse logs / take screenshots).

Greysir · 01/28/10, 2:26 PM

Doc, your mod looks fairly promising. I'm taking a look at it for our purposes since it would definitely relieve some stress of our raid leader mid-fight. One concern though is that it looks like the bite is assigned to to first available person in the list, based on class. So you could have a ranged running to melee to bite their target, rather than biting a ranged person that is somewhere in their vicinity. Has that been much of an issue for you? (I'm assuming your raid uses your mod). To me the ideal change would be to have a class priority for each class/role. So when looking for a target, melee would prioritize melee classes over ranged, and vice versa. Not a huge change per se, but not a small one..

Dochas · 01/28/10, 2:51 PM

Originally Posted by Avrus

Based on our attempts in 25 and 10 I firmly believe the mechanic is total damage (rather than DPS) + total healing (including overhealing - rather than HPS).

Except I have already shown that isn't the case when a warrior with 140k damage got bit when a mage had 230k damage in that same pre-bite window. In addition I did 168k, but was below the warrior on threat.

dr_AllCOM3 · 01/28/10, 3:00 PM

Originally Posted by Greysir

Doc, your mod looks fairly promising. [...] So you could have a ranged running to melee to bite their target, rather than biting a ranged person that is somewhere in their vicinity.[...]

It doesn't matter at all in ICC 10 normal mode

. I see your point, it could theoretically squeeze out a few more seconds over the course of a fight. I've ordered the classes by average raid dps, so in the end it should be about equal.

Edit:
Todays 10 man ICC raid from my guild successfully used the Biting for Dummies addon without any instructions from my side.

Exemplar · 01/28/10, 3:07 PM

The above discussion of raw thread, raw damage done and log mining has all been done with the assumption she picks her target at time of bite.

It might be possible to align the "Our raid didn't work that way" examples if she actually picks the target, say, 10 seconds into the fight. Highest DPS/threat at 10 seconds (or a specific number of seconds between 1 and 15) will be bitten at 15 seconds. Of course this would be ugly to map in logs and compare.

I agree with Truculent, find a method that works to drive the bite to intended target with 100% accuracy and don't worry precisely why it works. Once a target is bitten, Dr AllCom's mod looks phenomenal.

Allara · 01/28/10, 3:19 PM

Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3

It doesn't matter at all in ICC 10 normal mode

. I see your point, it could theoretically squeeze out a few more seconds over the course of a fight. I've ordered the classes by average raid dps, so in the end it should be about equal.

It can make a big difference on 25 man, however. Particularly with the first fear aligning with a bite, it's helpful if the first player (i.e. a ranged) bites a player of the opposite type (i.e. a melee). From then on, positioning is much easier if melee bites melee and ranged bites ranged.

Avrus · 01/28/10, 3:21 PM

Originally Posted by Dochas

Except I have already shown that isn't the case when a warrior with 140k damage got bit when a mage had 230k damage in that same pre-bite window. In addition I did 168k, but was below the warrior on threat.

There seemed to be a lot going on during that example, with the warrior getting blood mirror. Where was the warrior on the damage chart when he was bit? at 140k damage that should have put him down between 6th and 7th shouldn't it have?

The one time we had a druid being bitten first, he pre-HoT'd everyone prior to pulling. He was 11th or 12th on the the threat list.

I'm sure there's going to be significant debate on the mechanic for some time, but as I mentioned I was able to call out the bite target prior to bite based solely on their overall damage position. This is over 8/12 attempts on 25 and the 3 attempts on 10 man.

Kashir · 01/28/10, 4:59 PM

This is a little embarrassing, but for those who are struggling with the berserk timer; have everyone reapply all their DoTs a few seconds before the enrage, and have a Pally bubble. For our kill she was at 500k at the berserk, and all the +100% damage DoTs took her down just as the bubble was about to expire.

Dochas · 01/28/10, 5:17 PM

Originally Posted by Avrus

There seemed to be a lot going on during that example, with the warrior getting blood mirror. Where was the warrior on the damage chart when he was bit? at 140k damage that should have put him down between 6th and 7th shouldn't it have?

Nope, guess it was a slow start for most dps, as that put him at 3rd below the assigned target and just barely below me, but higher on threat, keeping with our "error" attempts of having our assigned target move into 2nd on threat and 3rd (or 4th if OT is 3rd) getting the bite.

It should also be noted that he spiked in the last 4 seconds before the bite, moving from around 7th in damage at 10 seconds in, up to his 3rd place damage/2nd in dps threat spot only 2 seconds before the bite, so I don't believe the target is picked in advance of the bite.

Kill last night had our assigned target getting it twice and me getting it once, the time I got it assigned target had 214k damage + MD and I had 183k damage + no misdirect (I was second on damage at that point). Both arcane mages, so there is absolutely no way it goes to top damage or top threat. The assigned target was top dps for all but 2 seconds during the first 15 seconds; the first second of the pull (he wasn't on the threat table yet) and the 5th second of the pull (a rogue jumped ahead of him for 1 second), at no point before the bite was I the top dps or threat.

Lilbitters · 01/28/10, 5:51 PM

To try and keep this discussion verifiable and relevant, please post logs with any claims of "So and so was bit" so that we can cut out some of the anecdotal "Eyeing it, X was second on threat or Y was first on damage" in our raid.

With logs we can see if any discrepancies were due to things like Mirror Images pre/post pull and Tricks of the Trade/Misdirection targets and the threat granted through them at various times.