Thats a pretty stupid statement. How does giving pallys a taunt (not sure on the mechanics, does it act like mocking blow or real taunt) break the encounter when druids already have the exact same ability? The thing is, if you are taunting the 4h, you are expecting to tank them for a significant amount of time. Giving pallys a taunt will not change the fact that I wouldn't want them coming anywhere near tanking, considering their current gear available to them. 8 Warriors are used by most guilds because they can tank the best, not because they can taunt.
The paladin taunt is ranged, and matches aggro exactly like taunt (confirmed by tigole I belive, anyone got the blue tracker post?).
I -freely- admit I don't have 4H experince, and frankly I don't think this thread is the place for a debate. From those I've spoken to who've tried the encounter, and the paladin taunt, they agree it really trivializes the mechanic of swaps because it lets you use stationary warriors and paladins pulling to them (or some such, the last person I spoke about this with went off into a scary mechanics tangent and lost me moderately quickly after 'wow that makes it simplier because basicly....'). The ability to yank from rangeis pretty big.
But I was more intending it as a highlighting of how new mechanics will change a -lot- of fights basicly, some for the better some for the worse, at a time when we're all on th same content.
Of all trivial encounters, immagine learning Shazzra with that.
Edit:
Bah, rereading I sound like a jackass, editing my original post a hair further.
Originally Posted by bartolimu
It makes me want to hit Marge Thatcher on the nose with a rolled up newspaper.
The ability to yank from range doesn't affect 4H, for reasons outline in the 4H thread, but it basically comes down to: moving horseman strats work until a horseman dies out of place.
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
The ability to yank from range doesn't affect 4H, for reasons outline in the 4H thread, but it basically comes down to: moving horseman strats work until a horseman dies out of place.
Color me incorrect then, dropping it and moving on. I was working on what people told me rather than my own personal experince. *Please* don't let me derail this thread into 4H mechanics, that was not my intention.
I'm just seeing the possiblity of a few fights being really significantly changed by new interactions, especially stuff like the pally taunt or the druid aoe avoidance. More subtle than the obvious raid mechanic changes, stuff that won't come to light for a few weeks after the patch, but massively decreasing the difficulty of some fights, and I fail to see how that's a good thing.
Originally Posted by bartolimu
It makes me want to hit Marge Thatcher on the nose with a rolled up newspaper.
The ability to yank from range doesn't affect 4H, for reasons outline in the 4H thread, but it basically comes down to: moving horseman strats work until a horseman dies out of place.
Color me incorrect then, dropping it and moving on. I was working on what people told me rather than my own personal experince. *Please* don't let me derail this thread into 4H mechanics, that was not my intention.
I'm just seeing the possiblity of a few fights being really significantly changed by new interactions, especially stuff like the pally taunt or the druid aoe avoidance. More subtle than the obvious raid mechanic changes, stuff that won't come to light for a few weeks after the patch, but massively decreasing the difficulty of some fights, and I fail to see how that's a good thing.
Well, I fail to see how fights tuned for Decursive suddenly being forced to be performed without it is a good thing. I don't disagree with the conclusion, that TBC will over/underinflate the difficulty of some fights, but I don't see it as coming from things like pally taunting (Shazz would definitely be easier, using a pally/war pair in the center with the pally snapping back... but not that much easier than the standard "1 warrior per group of ranged and drag it back" tactic) or druid AoE avoidance.
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
for anyone who has friends @ blizzard, does anyone know how the dev team is currently forking? They have said in the past there is only 1 dev team that work on both live and expansion, is most of the team now working on the 2.0 patch and then switching back to TBC when its done or are they all working on both?
Sounds like a nightmare dev scenario to me either way, yanking all the outland portions out of TBC (what about all the new BE/draeni zones in azeroth? the artwork, etc?), QAing it, pushing it out, while simultaneously working on finishing up TBC.
Given previous poor security QA by blizzard I wonder if people will figure out ways to roll a BE/draeni, explore the new zones, or *gasp* even figure out how to port to outlands in 2.0.
Sounds like a nightmare dev scenario to me either way
Did you forget about the PTR? There are always lots of people willing to test stuff. Sure, the devs do not take into account all feedback, but if there is a big hole (like BE or going to Outland) it will be fixed.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Have you really been using decursive for so long that you didn't know about this change? As soon as this change was implemented I stopped using decursive because my only excuse (the one quoted) no longer applied to the game. No global cooldown and no mana is lost, only a little bit of time it took to cilck.
Actually, If you assign priorities in the decursive options, you can easily avoid the "nothing to dispel" error by making sure each decurser checks different groups first and only starts random scanning if those are clean. Of course it's a case of knowing how to play your addons instead of expecting them to play for you. ;)
You don't lose mana if the curing spell doesn't fire off, by the way.
You totally missed my point. The reason I used decursive was to prevent double dispels on targets that only needed one. With the change so that you can't cast it on a target that doesn't have a debuff, you don't waste a global cooldown, 5 second rule, or mana on a useless dispel. It made decursive unnecessary for the only reason I used it, so I stopped using it. When I said "the one quoted", I meant HIS excuse for using decursive, "quoted" as in using the forum system's quoting.
I know exactly how decursive works, and exactly how priorities work.
Originally Posted by RK
However, screw losing decursive. I can only imagine how much more poison/disease dispels will suck for Alliance and magic dispels will suck for Horde now that their sole dispellers for those debuffs will have to manually target and remove. There's no skill involved in that, all this does is make it take longer.
The global cooldown is 1.5s. It's really not that hard to pick a new target among 10 that you're assigned to dispel and be ready to cast it again before that 1.5s is up. Tedious? Sure. But how is hitting 1 button without needing to pay attention less tedious?
for anyone who has friends @ blizzard, does anyone know how the dev team is currently forking? They have said in the past there is only 1 dev team that work on both live and expansion, is most of the team now working on the 2.0 patch and then switching back to TBC when its done or are they all working on both?
Sounds like a nightmare dev scenario to me either way, yanking all the outland portions out of TBC (what about all the new BE/draeni zones in azeroth? the artwork, etc?), QAing it, pushing it out, while simultaneously working on finishing up TBC.
Given previous poor security QA by blizzard I wonder if people will figure out ways to roll a BE/draeni, explore the new zones, or *gasp* even figure out how to port to outlands in 2.0.
I fail to see how this is a problem at all, WoW 2.0 is pretty much playing WoW post-TBC but without it installed/activated. It'd be like playing any other MMO (or hell even Guild Wars) where you're just barred access to expansion content by portals that don't work for you or NPCs blocking your path.
The global cooldown is 1.5s. It's really not that hard to pick a new target among 10 that you're assigned to dispel and be ready to cast it again before that 1.5s is up. Tedious? Sure. But how is hitting 1 button without needing to pay attention less tedious?
Did you seriously just ask that question? Obviously the tedious action with the least steps to repeat would be the least tedious. And obviously a tedious task that is mindless becomes much less tedious than one where you have to actively participate, and can often lose its tedium entirely if it can be performed without thinking.
Top guilds will need to alter a few strats on the likes of Noth or Sapphiron, but if anythng I imagine raiding will be easier for them. Both Horde and Alliance get the new Proc Tanks, Vampiric Touch and Stackable HoTs. Alliance get Crusader Strike for maintaing Judgements (and actually providing some DPS), Horde get Resto Shaman, and DW Enhancement Shaman.
With all these positives and such few negatives, it's a shame that people are only referring to "You mean I'll have to hit more than just my "~" key to decurse?". I expect that on the WoW forums (and there's tonnes of it), I'm just surpised to see so much of it here (not from you in particular Kalman, but from this thread).
If you haven't done Sapphiron don't comment on it. I think though all it would need to make it simply balanced for the 2.0 changes is ensure that no more than 2 people per group can be cursed. Its the nastiest curse ingame for the damage it does and delivers it faster than any other curse ingame plus heals the mob you are trying to kill.
Oh and also Sapphiron is the hardest hitting mob ingame so the more time your druids are decursing the more precarious your main tanks life is.
Edit: Basically the encounter was balanced around Decursive (which developers have stated they had to balance encounters with in mind). With decursive its a decently doable fight wihtout it becomes a lot more questionable without stacking at least 2 decursers per group. To me Noth is a nonissue and I expect to see not much issues with, but its questionable do you want to spend time relearning a fight like Sapphiron without stacking the raid 4 to 6 weeks before the expansion comes out?
I have been speculating this fight with some guild members. As we are making our push to down KT before this "patch" hits I am somewhat worried about sapph since his cursing was clearly made to require decursive of some sorts in the raid. Hopefully Blizz will reduce the amount of curses possible or the time before the damage occurs. In my eyes what I envision is the number of curses reduced but the speed of MT damage increasing to force druids / priests to keep hot's up to compensate for this change and keep the encounter difficulty
I have been speculating this fight with some guild members. As we are making our push to down KT before this "patch" hits I am somewhat worried about sapph since his cursing was clearly made to require decursive of some sorts in the raid. Hopefully Blizz will reduce the amount of curses possible or the time before the damage occurs. In my eyes what I envision is the number of curses reduced but the speed of MT damage increasing to force druids / priests to keep hot's up to compensate for this change and keep the encounter difficulty
Already confirmed that there would be no retroactive tuning of 40-man content with the next content patch. Take the good with the bad I suppose.
The global cooldown is 1.5s. It's really not that hard to pick a new target among 10 that you're assigned to dispel and be ready to cast it again before that 1.5s is up. Tedious? Sure. But how is hitting 1 button without needing to pay attention less tedious?
Did you seriously just ask that question? Obviously the tedious action with the least steps to repeat would be the least tedious. And obviously a tedious task that is mindless becomes much less tedious than one where you have to actively participate, and can often lose its tedium entirely if it can be performed without thinking.
Not to mention decursive also does the range check for you, sorting all the players you can decurse. It can easily be set up to avoid unnecessary collisions in the raid-wide curing and it cures out-of-party pets (which are not easy to do with the standard UI).
Furthermore it skips things like greater dreamless sleep automatically.
One other thing decursive does is it cures people without interrupting your melee swing. This allows paladins to keep judgements alive (and gaining mana from JoW) while curing the entire raid. Optimal manual curing requires you to select your new target within the 1.5sec global cooldown of your prior cure spell so that you can hit the new one immediately when the cooldown expires (as opposed to hitting cure and then mouseclicking a raid frame - which is measurably slower).
Finally, decursive is an example of an adaptive algorithm. Used in raids by multiple people it automatically compensates for crucial decursers dying, going AFK or LD. Standard UI with strategies such as: "decurse your own party" do not have this property and are fragile to players not being able to perform their job for any reason.
Sure, hand picking targets will be practical in the future, but that is only because the encounters will be designed with that in mind when decursive is dead.
The global cooldown is 1.5s. It's really not that hard to pick a new target among 10 that you're assigned to dispel and be ready to cast it again before that 1.5s is up. Tedious? Sure. But how is hitting 1 button without needing to pay attention less tedious?
Because I am also doing other things. So whle I am spamming the decursive key, I am looking for potential out of range or los targets, I am avoiding aoe effects, I am keeping an eye on buffs on players and keeping up judgement of wisdom, meleing the mob if I can for damage and mana and looking for potential heal targets to heal as soon as I stop decursing/cleansing. Depending on the raid I may also be running the raid and/or class channel.
In comparison when I manually cleanse whichI have done a few times for chromagus and luci, I find a safe spot and spend most of my time selecting my assigned targets cleansing them and looking for the next. When their is no target to cleanse I dash to the mob apply judgement of wisdom and go hide again. Now that is tedious.
The global cooldown is 1.5s. It's really not that hard to pick a new target among 10 that you're assigned to dispel and be ready to cast it again before that 1.5s is up. Tedious? Sure. But how is hitting 1 button without needing to pay attention less tedious?
Because I am also doing other things. So whle I am spamming the decursive key, I am looking for potential out of range or los targets, I am avoiding aoe effects, I am keeping an eye on buffs on players and keeping up judgement of wisdom, meleing the mob if I can for damage and mana and looking for potential heal targets to heal as soon as I stop decursing/cleansing. Depending on the raid I may also be running the raid and/or class channel.
In comparison when I manually cleanse whichI have done a few times for chromagus and luci, I find a safe spot and spend most of my time selecting my assigned targets cleansing them and looking for the next. When their is no target to cleanse I dash to the mob apply judgement of wisdom and go hide again. Now that is tedious.
That sounds a whole lot more interactive to me, it may be harder, but its not more tedious.
I look at it as another way of differentiating the good from bad/lazy players :D
It's very tedious because it takes even more from watching the fight to watching some bars. As "interactive" as it sounds, I really don't enjoy yet another reason to have my eyes never moving from the raid bars.
Elemental precision nerf, ignite nerf (?), counterspell nerf, 20% less threat reduction, decursive dead... Hmm why do I get the feeling my decision to swap from Fury Warrior to Mage may be a painful one for the next couple of months.
I'm pretty sure it's effect on raiding will be that there is less of it. I'm sure our healers are really looking forward to the first Chromaggus after the patch. This patch is going to be messy. Very messy.
I always assumed they were changing the mage threat talents in light of Horde getting paladins and never really saw it as a big deal. I saw pallys using BoS on certain fights and shamans not having to drop TA anymore. Raiding as a Horde fire mage has always been rough on mana and threat, but it should be really annoying with 2.0....even with a nerfed ignite.
Of course the pally taunt has been mentioned...are there other changes like these people have noticed? Are there other mechanics that seem to have been added or changed and balanced assuming both sides have shams/pallys?
Can we get off of the "Decursive makes players bad/lazy" bandwagon?
If we all decided that the most annoying, more time-consuming and more tedious answer to solving our problems was the correct one there would be alot of stuff that never did get done. I sure enjoy using my push lawnmower over my motorized one.
It's such an old, old argument. I'm sure somewhere there's a person this applies to but for the majority of posters on this board they don't want to see an awesome tool be thrown out because it helps them do their job better, not do it for them.
Also remember that while we are seeing less players overall to cleanse/decurse/dispel, we're also seeing less decursers/dispellers. You'll probably end up with roughly the same ratio of targets to watch, the only difference being you won't need decursive as a "helpful eye" over the rest of the raid.
On topic: I'm really very curious how they will approach certain things in WoW after releasing some of the newer items. As many have already mentioned, classes would already see a pretty big change in the way they do things, not to mention fights designed around decursive being available are going to completely suck.
It really seems the effects of the changes are very wide-reaching. How will they approach this?
With no decursive, it probably means no more pet on Noth. ; ;
The global cooldown is 1.5s. It's really not that hard to pick a new target among 10 that you're assigned to dispel and be ready to cast it again before that 1.5s is up. Tedious? Sure. But how is hitting 1 button without needing to pay attention less tedious?
Because I am also doing other things. So whle I am spamming the decursive key, I am looking for potential out of range or los targets, I am avoiding aoe effects, I am keeping an eye on buffs on players and keeping up judgement of wisdom, meleing the mob if I can for damage and mana and looking for potential heal targets to heal as soon as I stop decursing/cleansing. Depending on the raid I may also be running the raid and/or class channel.
In comparison when I manually cleanse whichI have done a few times for chromagus and luci, I find a safe spot and spend most of my time selecting my assigned targets cleansing them and looking for the next. When their is no target to cleanse I dash to the mob apply judgement of wisdom and go hide again. Now that is tedious.
That sounds a whole lot more interactive to me, it may be harder, but its not more tedious.
I look at it as another way of differentiating the good from bad/lazy players :D
To be honest, I could care less about any fight in the game as far as decursing goes except Sapphiron. Every other fight you can take a good amount of time to decurse. If you take > 5 seconds to decurse someone on Sapphiron, they're probably going to be dead. Also, you have to take into account the healing it does. We had Sapphiron to ~25% ish last night and we got an unfortunate positioning of the blocks and lost 3 decursers. We continued the fight for around 2-3 minutes and watched Sapphiron's health slowly climb.
All these people that are saying "omg you are such a horrible player if you use decursive" or "omg you are soo lazy if you use decursive" are just ignorant in my book. Yes, all of this will be entirely doable without, but like a well-informed poster said earlier, there are certain things included in decursive that steamline the process. Regardless, I'm no longer going to argue on this issue as everyone posting this thread is obviously better than all of us since they use no kind of custom UI at all and use complete stock UI and still kill KT weekly naked.
11/05/06, 11:48 AM
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