Greatcow's Updated Enhancement Shaman Report Part 2 - Page 3

Quasar · 11/15/06, 11:38 AM

That problem of display order happens for plenty of other things, I guess because of an event-broadcast system or something. Always irritating when I'm trying to parse my combat log for useful info.

Malan · 11/15/06, 12:16 PM

Does it for chain heal for sure - it shows the 3rd, then the 2nd, and finally the actual target of the chain heal, in reverse order of how they get healed.

GamingManiac · 11/15/06, 6:38 PM

I'm on PTRs right now and completely in love with DW (granted I have some rather silly gear, The Castigator and Maexxna's Fang). Regardless, I could DPS down a warrior or rogue before they killed me if it was necessary without a heal.

I realize this is a bad comparison, PTR PvP versus level 67-70 PvP, seeing as the HP values will skyrocket, but as far as I can tell, DW shamans are going to have fun between the new talent patch and TBC with PvP. However, I haven't tested this seriously yet, but I have yet to see windfury proc off my stormstrike attacks when dueling a 60 shaman for over 5 minutes (with both 2H and DW). This is a rather small amount of data to conclusively prove anything and could be prone to a string of bad luck, but has anyone been able to get this to occur yet?

♦ Oggie · 11/15/06, 6:50 PM

Originally Posted by GamingManiac

However, I haven't tested this seriously yet, but I have yet to see windfury proc off my stormstrike attacks when dueling a 60 shaman for over 5 minutes (with both 2H and DW). This is a rather small amount of data to conclusively prove anything and could be prone to a string of bad luck, but has anyone been able to get this to occur yet?

It seems like this could happen previously, but according to people on the beta forums it's just not the case anymore.

You tried out SR yet? *grin*

Quasar · 11/15/06, 7:30 PM

From my experience, DW in PVP against the extended HP quantities from 60-70 is a much different ballgame than it would be pre-Outlands. Heavily, heavily weapon dependent, more than now.

Degorn · 11/16/06, 2:14 AM

Respec 31/0/21 at 61, it's one of the greatest moments in wow pvp as a shaman. 9 levels later you deal around 20% more damage (assuming that you already had some of the best gear at 60) and people have 60%-100% more hp.

Argrax · 12/01/06, 1:18 PM

In spite of the fact this isn't a question in regards to Enhancement shaman specifically, I didn't feel it warranted a new thread.

If I wanted to maintain a minimum of 30 points in elemental for level 70, would I be a silly person for picking up purification instead of improved mana spring/healing stream and subsequently mana tide totem?

In the expansion mana tide sees a significant improvement that makes it an excellent 31 point talent however I feel that the 5 pre-requisite points are largely wasted given what I know from the live game.

Does someone know approximately what the mp5 difference is between an untalented and talented mana spring totem at level 70 is? I've also heard people claim that healing stream is actually useful in TBC so maybe then the talent becomes close to or on par with purification which would then make the choice easy.

GamingManiac · 12/01/06, 1:43 PM

I've always regarded purification as a better talent than mana tide. They both got buffed pretty nicely in the new patch, but if it came down to one or the other I'd take purification just because it scales so much nicely with +healing which isn't that hard to come by while your int never increases more than marginally once you're in a full epic suit (with the exception of certain Earthshatter pieces). The ease of being able to scale healing compared to scaling int to make your MTT scale better down the line makes it an easy call for me.

That being said, I don't really think improved water totems are really a waste. Increasing the effectiveness of a totem you will have up all the time (with the exception of certain fights) isn't terrible.

Iol · 12/01/06, 1:55 PM

Originally Posted by Argrax

In the expansion mana tide sees a significant improvement that makes it an excellent 31 point talent however I feel that the 5 pre-requisite points are largely wasted given what I know from the live game.

I can't say anything for higher ranks of Mana / healing spring / stream but. in live, my Healing spring ticks for 25 per 2 sec. On PTR, with the talent, it ticks for 58 and stacks with other healing stream since its considered a HoT now. I don't know but HS is pretty worthwhile to me in next patch.

That isnt the case with Mana spring however. Mana spring gives me 13-14 per 2sec.

♦ Oggie · 12/01/06, 1:57 PM

Pace what GamingManiac said, I would take Tide because of the absolutely insane increase in raid viability and functionality it provides.

I think Purification is going to do more, overall, for your healing capacity. Since you have 30 points in Ele I'd be pretty sure that Tide will increase your personal dps, as well as increasing your raid in general's ability to heal and/or dps.

Oh, and I got healing stream (in about half EF, @69) up to 88, with earthen shield ticks of about 500. So yeah, it's worth using.

GamingManiac · 12/01/06, 2:16 PM

Originally Posted by Oggie

Pace what GamingManiac said, I would take Tide because of the absolutely insane increase in raid viability and functionality it provides.

I think Purification is going to do more, overall, for your healing capacity. Since you have 30 points in Ele I'd be pretty sure that Tide will increase your personal dps, as well as increasing your raid in general's ability to heal and/or dps.

Oh, and I got healing stream (in about half EF, @69) up to 88, with earthen shield ticks of about 500. So yeah, it's worth using.

JoW/BoW plus spring in your group makes mana tide slightly less necessary to have. Still extremely nice, but slightly less.

♦ Oggie · 12/01/06, 2:58 PM

Originally Posted by GamingManiac

JoW/BoW plus spring in your group makes mana tide slightly less necessary to have. Still extremely nice, but slightly less.

Having run with both, abolutely the case!

But it's really hard to argue that Tide doesnt' end up doing more for the raid in general. It's not a lot more, and the case can certainly be made for being a stronger healer (which I do think purifcation makes you, hands down) will help significantly. I just personally find the arguement slightly in favor of Tide (esp since mana is such an issue for Ele dps).

Ymmv!

Sanctus · 12/04/06, 5:28 PM

What's everyone's take on Tier 4? To me everything looked gravy until I saw the damage/healing on it. It's not "free" either and is consuming item value points. It concerns me somewhat that the shaman melee-specific set has around half the offensive strength of rogue/warrior/hunter sets. It is frighteningly similar to the current HWL/GM pvp sets in their distribution of stats(rendering them far inferior to more focused items). If they don't change it, are we no better off than we are now with our piecemeal hunter/generic melee gear?

It's disconcerting enough that I'm wondering if maybe elemental would be a far better choice with the BC itemization; they seem to have nailed that set perfectly. Everything elementals have been wanting with no garbage to muddle it up.

Nite_Moogle · 12/04/06, 5:46 PM

I don't really mind it. I hate how badly gimped I feel when I put on my enhancement suit since my +dmg and mana regen go down the toilet. It might not be as knockout in melee as the other sets are, but it doesn't lock you so far in to meleeing that you feel as though you can't wear it if you might have to do some healing. There will likely be an assortment of items with pure melee stats you can get simply by swiping items from Rogues and Hunters, but a really good solid hybrid set like Stormcaller's is probably going to be tough to find outside of specific set itemization.

• frmorrison · 12/04/06, 6:57 PM

Originally Posted by Sanctus

It is frighteningly similar to the current HWL/GM pvp sets in their distribution of stats(rendering them far inferior to more focused items). If they don't change it, are we no better off than we are now with our piecemeal hunter/generic melee gear?

It's disconcerting enough that I'm wondering if maybe elemental would be a far better choice with the BC itemization; they seem to have nailed that set perfectly. Everything elementals have been wanting with no garbage to muddle it up.

You are right in that the 5 piece "melee" shaman set has stats all over like stormcaller, but that still leaves 3 slots and rings/trinkets/neck for more pure melee stats (i.e. hunter gear and craftables).

Elemental may have better itemization but mana is an issue, while Enhancement doesn't need to worry much about that (shammervate)

Malan · 12/04/06, 11:08 PM

Did they ever adjust stormstrike so it doesn't stack, or do I get to try a 39 Enhance, 1 elemental Onyxia run after the patch?

Humbaba · 12/04/06, 11:38 PM

I believe they overwrite each other now.

Malan · 12/05/06, 12:08 AM

Damn. I was really looking forward to trying that after Gurg suggested it.

Thegreatcow · 12/05/06, 7:55 PM

Just bumping this back really quick, sorry if that is against the rules and all, I will double check to be sure, but I updated the enhancement guide on the live forums, with a dual wield guide thanks to the advice I originally got from here. So yeah, just wanted to let you all know and thank you for the help! :D

Pane · 12/06/06, 8:26 AM

Hey greatcow

From a pure pve dmg point of view, do you think nature's guidance is a must, or will improved shocks be better? I suck at theorycrafting ;-)

ps: Many thanks for your guides

• frmorrison · 12/06/06, 8:55 AM

Originally Posted by Pane

From a pure pve dmg point of view, do you think nature's guidance is a must, or will improved shocks be better? I suck at theorycrafting ;-)

First off, are you doing DW or 2H? What is your spec? How often do you heal? Do you like suicide runs (bursting a guy down then dieing b/c you have no mana left)?

Regarding damage talents, NG gives 3% hit with melee and spells, and 25% off mana for totems.
Imp Shocks gives more dps, 5% more on the base damage, 10% off mana costs of nukes/shocks, and clearcasting.

For overall dps, the Elemental talents are better, however, the utilty of Resto is tough to pass (70% to avoid pushback on heals, 5% off heals, 25% off totems, 3 to hit, -20 mins off self-rez). Also depending on spec, you may want to get 6% all instants (LS, shocks, totems, weapon buffs, purge, racial abilities)

All that said, my shaman is currently 0/34/17 (only 2% to hit (I have another 2% hit from gear using 2H and I wanted 6% off instant casts in Enchancement).

• Relwin · 12/06/06, 8:59 AM

For PvE damage right now, without JoW, you're going to be gimped with DW. The patch is really incomplete without the itemization and other changes that are coming in TBC for a lot of classes and builds. Shaman just get to farm better until we have pallies propping up our mana regen.

If you're talking about when we have pallies and the right gear though, Nature's Guidance will carry more in the long run. Imp shocks helps on fights where you don't mind going out of mana in about a minute (ie trash clearing). Being that your main source of damage is going to be melee hits focus on those first then let your spells supplement it.

Pane · 12/06/06, 9:04 AM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

Originally Posted by Pane

From a pure pve dmg point of view, do you think nature's guidance is a must, or will improved shocks be better? I suck at theorycrafting ;-)

First off, are you doing DW or 2H? What is your spec? How often do you heal? Do you like suicide runs (bursting a guy down then dieing b/c you have no mana left)?

Regarding damage talents, NG gives 3% hit with melee and spells, and 25% off mana for totems.
Imp Shocks gives more dps, 5% more on the base damage, 10% off mana costs of nukes/shocks, and clearcasting.

For overall dps, the Elemental talents are better, however, the utilty of Resto is tough to pass (70% to avoid pushback on heals, 5% off heals, 25% off totems, 3 to hit, -20 mins off self-rez). Also depending on spec, you may want to get 6% all instants (LS, shocks, totems, weapon buffs, purge, racial abilities)

All that said, my shaman is currently 0/34/17 (only 2% to hit (I have another 2% hit from gear using 2H and I wanted 6% off instant casts in Enchancement).

Yeah that would be a DW spec, with probably 45 in enhance for SR, and both totem upgrades (maximum UR botting).

I saw a shaman dps sheet where shocks make up roughly 1/3 of dmg assuming a 3 lvls higher boss mob. So boosting that seems like a good idea. But you are ofcourse right; In my pondering I neglected the effect of cheaper totems, comparing only +3 hit to the better shock stuff. (Not that this means I'm now convinced either way :P)

Skiace · 12/06/06, 5:45 PM

Originally Posted by Pane

Originally Posted by frmorrison

Originally Posted by Pane

From a pure pve dmg point of view, do you think nature's guidance is a must, or will improved shocks be better? I suck at theorycrafting ;-)

First off, are you doing DW or 2H? What is your spec? How often do you heal? Do you like suicide runs (bursting a guy down then dieing b/c you have no mana left)?

Regarding damage talents, NG gives 3% hit with melee and spells, and 25% off mana for totems.
Imp Shocks gives more dps, 5% more on the base damage, 10% off mana costs of nukes/shocks, and clearcasting.

For overall dps, the Elemental talents are better, however, the utilty of Resto is tough to pass (70% to avoid pushback on heals, 5% off heals, 25% off totems, 3 to hit, -20 mins off self-rez). Also depending on spec, you may want to get 6% all instants (LS, shocks, totems, weapon buffs, purge, racial abilities)

All that said, my shaman is currently 0/34/17 (only 2% to hit (I have another 2% hit from gear using 2H and I wanted 6% off instant casts in Enchancement).

Yeah that would be a DW spec, with probably 45 in enhance for SR, and both totem upgrades (maximum UR botting).

I saw a shaman dps sheet where shocks make up roughly 1/3 of dmg assuming a 3 lvls higher boss mob. So boosting that seems like a good idea. But you are ofcourse right; In my pondering I neglected the effect of cheaper totems, comparing only +3 hit to the better shock stuff. (Not that this means I'm now convinced either way :P)

i've compared ele/enh and resto/enh extensivly, and from a pure dps standpoint, taking elemental down to elemental devastation has a slight dps edge over resto down to nature's guidance for +hit. this is subject to gear though, because the elemental minor requires some spell stats (+spell dmg and +spell crit) to really shine. clear-casting also serves to make up some efficiency, so the two builds come out relatively even on that front, assuming you're spamming shocks with either build. the beneffit of taking elemental to compliment a dualwield build is primarily from elemental devastation, (effectivly increasing melee crit by ~2% depending on spellcrit) not increased shock damage.

the downside of taking elemental is of course decreased healing utility, which IMO should never be overlooked for a raiding shaman.

Pane · 12/07/06, 1:01 AM

Originally Posted by Skiace

[i've compared ele/enh and resto/enh extensivly, and from a pure dps standpoint, taking elemental down to elemental devastation has a slight dps edge over resto down to nature's guidance for +hit. this is subject to gear though, because the elemental minor requires some spell stats (+spell dmg and +spell crit) to really shine. clear-casting also serves to make up some efficiency, so the two builds come out relatively even on that front, assuming you're spamming shocks with either build. the beneffit of taking elemental to compliment a dualwield build is primarily from elemental devastation, (effectivly increasing melee crit by ~2% depending on spellcrit) not increased shock damage.

the downside of taking elemental is of course decreased healing utility, which IMO should never be overlooked for a raiding shaman.

Many thanks (also the people I didnt' quote)