I was sitting and wondering how a shadow priest would do in PvE at lvl 70. So I figured I would do a rough comparison with a frost mage just using frostbolts. This is in a 25 man raid, not in the same group. 2 min of pure dpsing on a boss.
Using:
5*SW:P (Rank 10). Costing 2875 mana and doing 10740 dmg(with only the spell dmg as modifier)
8* VT (Rank 3). Costing 2125 mana and doing 5950 dmg(with only the spell dmg as modifier)
8*MB (Rank 11). Costing 1913 mana and doing 5187 dmg(with only the spell dmg as modifier)
29*MF (Rank 8). Costing 5684 mana and doing 29812 dmg (with only the spell dmg as modifier)
Total 12597(-4342=8255) mana 86850 dmg(with all the modifiers) (~720 dps)
Now here comes the twist: Vampiric touch. Vampiric touch and VE gives the priest and the rest of the group 4342 mana and 26055 hp. Lowering the priests total mana cost of all spells to 8255.
My calculations are rough, I know, but they still prove a point imo. I'm no mage expert so if any mage has a better suggestion on use of spells and talents, please tell me.
My question here is: Will these sort of things bring shadow priests more into PvE then atm? Since the mana does not seem to be a problem for a shadow priest. Since everytime I mentioned a shadow priest in PvE all I heard was: Mana inefficient, mana inefficient and so on. Even if I have made some small misscalculations or that my talent speccs aren't perfect. I still don't think that fixing that would make up for the amount of mana and thereby dps a shadow priest would give to his group and raid. (This is from my PoV on the shadow priests in end game PvE atm)
I don't see what exactly you're taking into account for calculating damage. For example, what's the crit-rate of the Frost Mage and Shadow Priest? What debuffs are you taking into account when calculating dps?
I don't see what exactly you're taking into account for calculating damage. For example, what's the crit-rate of the Frost Mage and Shadow Priest? What debuffs are you taking into account when calculating dps?
Sorry
Mage: Misery, Curse of elements and a 25% crit(5 stacks of winter's chill)
Priest: Curse of shadows, Misery, 5/5 Shadow weaving and 10% crit rate.
When was the last boss fight that lasted 2 min? Do the same math for 5 and 10 mins, respectively.
Well this is more to prove a point. If a mage atm can do nice dps on a boss like Patchwerk, then should a shadow priest also be able to, if my calculations are correct, hold around that dps and give hp and mana to the group. With less total mana cost.
Clean up the maths, add in the obscene threat reducing tools that a shadowpriest would have, and you have a point :).
Also if mana aint an issue then that talent spec for priests isnt the best for dps, try adding imp. Mind blast and some points in shadow power, and taking away some disc talents. Im no priest expert, but thats more damage that makes use of all that lovely extra mana.
EDIT: For a pure raid build, this would probably be the best frost build i can think of, gotta be pretty masochistic to give up shatter as a frost mage ofc.
Edit2:Bleh a couple of adjustments, but thats the basic build, imp arc missiles and a few 'free' points could be swapped into impact/focus for blast usage.
I raid currently with 5 spellhit (still after another point), 69mp5 and +636 dmg.
For trash or short boss fights I swap out 16mp5 for another +29 dmg.
In my max damage gear I'm sitting at pretty much +700 unbuffed dmg.
So yeah, +500 dmg for the Shadow Priest is sort of low for pve. ;)
Your Shadow Priest talent spec looks mostly fine though you'll be wanting to have points in Shadow Reach. On certain fights the extra range helps immensely.
The frostmage will be able do 3 times that dmg on longer fights with his mana rubies, evocation, clearcasting and 45% spirit regen while casting + he gets extra dps from water elemental.
1) Okay you havn't played a shadow priest in pure raid PvE before, this much is apparent in your spec. http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...10250123051051
or http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...123051051#none
Are more raid friendly specs, although individual assessments of the worth of: crit talent/mind blast cool down/mental agility will change individual PvE shadow specs. Silence/focused casting given *CURRENT RAID ENCOUNTERS* are strictly the domain of the PvP shadow priest. (All value judgments subject to change when lvl 70 raid encounters come out) These are a no-no for the pure pve priest. =P
2) Tier 4 levels of +dmg for a shadow priest are going to be in the 550-650++ range given the current Beta itemization. I'm toting around 620 on live and have a trinket, wand, cloak, and weapon upgrade on Beta (although I can't equip all atm). Comparing the T4 nuker set to current itemization available the +dmg numbers are similar when fully socketed out. I expect to have close to (or more than) 700+dmg available for lvl 70 raiding.
My question here is: Will these sort of things bring shadow priests more into PvE then atm? Since the mana does not seem to be a problem for a shadow priest. (This is from my PoV on the shadow priests in end game PvE atm)
Yes. We're already in your raid instances stealing your loots in many many guilds.
Do not expect us to fade into the shadows in the expansion- if anything we are a far far far more raid viable class. Expect to see us face melting in an instance near you.
Edit: Oh and what scaling numbers are you using for shadow priests + mindflay? I haven't given your numbers a run through the wringer to check, but we've been everywhere from 40something to 81%- the 57% number has stabilized for 2 patches and looks like it may be a semi final number atm. This is a buff from live. (if you were using live numbers) We also have Shadow fiend, but they are in the process of adjusting the scaling for that (the last push showed a decrease in scaling, Ilike to see 2 pushes before I get comfortable with any scaling) so adding up the numbers with that included is kinda dicy, but he does damage and returns mana as well.
Those of you who volunteered to be injected with praying mantis DNA, I've got some good news and some bad news.
Bad news is we're postponing those tests indefinitely. Good news is we've got a much better test for you: fighting an army of mantis men.
Pick up a rifle and follow the yellow line. You'll know when the test starts. BSG Quick Reference
We are currently in the process of heavy DPS testing with all classes in a wide variety of combat types, situations, gear, and spec to ensure they fall in-line with what we expect of each class and where we want each class to be on the DPS scale. As we progress with the DPS testing there will be changes made that will help adjust classes to where we want them to be, and you may see improvements or nerfs that seem a bit odd. At the very least we want to express that we're making these adjustments due to involved DPS tests and the changes being made are a direct result of our findings.
The expansion gives us an amazing opportunity to balance all of the classes in one big release, and we're going to be refining each class until release to make sure we're making good use of it.
Ask me again in a five to seven weeks how I feel about Shadow Priests vs Frost Mages. Mages have changed three or four times in the past two weeks. I've given up on trying to keep a simple spreadsheet updated, and am just relying on Blizzard figuring out where they want to slot each class.
1) Okay you havn't played a shadow priest in pure raid PvE before, this much is apparent in your spec. http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...10250123051051
or http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...123051051#none
Are more raid friendly specs, although individual assessments of the worth of: crit talent/mind blast cool down/mental agility will change individual PvE shadow specs. Silence/focused casting given *CURRENT RAID ENCOUNTERS* are strictly the domain of the PvP shadow priest. (All value judgments subject to change when lvl 70 raid encounters come out) These are a no-no for the pure pve priest. =P
I hate to disagree with you Bekah but I'm a firm believer in that Shadow Priests in pve derive their from their utility as well as their DPS. This is why I can never understand the pve Shadow Priests that don't spec for Silence.
Yes, there aren't that many fights where it's used currently but there are still some where it's very nice to have.
The only real change to your spec is you've picked up Mental Agility which only lowers the cost of SW:D, SW:P and VE for us.
Yes, that spec would help with your lasting ability but you're giving up a fair bit of utility.
Also in the expansion a 1/5 in Imp. Mind Blast isn't that bad a thing given how it dovetails nicely into a Mind Blast, SW:D, Flay, Flay cycle.
Sorry, since classes are still in flux, this discussion doesn't have much worth (also you talent selections are poor for raid dps).
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
i've done a number of 5 mans (67 lock) in beta, in both regular and hard mode with mages/shadow priests. this is anecdotal only (i do have a 60 priest but havent played in a while).
basically locks/mages/priests stay together on dmg meters for the first min or two of fight. after that it depends if there are adds or not. If there are, priests and locks can keep up. If not, mage pulls ahead and the gap grows wider. most of the 5 man bosses so far have been w/o adds, or trivial adds that you kill first and then hit the boss.
priests have a very tough time on mana still. the shadow priests were going oom very quickly and couldn't regen much (none of us were potting, flasking, etc just taking it easy). locks had an easy time with vt/ve/siphon, could pretty much keep constant mana bar going. mages would do well with evo up to the 6-8 min mark.
for the auchindon bosses it was no contest, mages were almost always ahead, locks a respectable second, and shadow priests far far behind. the bosses are 4-7 min fights. i imagine it would just be worse in 25 man raids.
without seeing the real 25 man raids and their setups (adds, healing needed, how long fights, etc) its difficult to say how raid compositions will be.
aye i agree, having played both classes to 60 in both those specs you've made some very poor choices of talents, and as you are talking specifically about 25 man instances you have to factor in how much a water elemental (or any pet) adds to a raid's overall dps. A water elemental is a far greater utility than Presence of mind if you have mages that heavily specced as they also get the targtable frost nova, which as i am sure we can all imagine is going to be useful for mass rooting in many situations in many dungeons, as opposed to an instant cast frostbolt every 3 minutes.
Ok, since dps is clearly going to tweaked some more, the dps as it stands now is fairly irrelevent.
What would be interesting (although i can see possible bitchfights!) is where you *think* classes should come, in a typical raid tank n'spank. (sustained single target damage)
All specs below maximising PVE bonuses:
1: Rogue/Fire mage - Both fragile, non-hybrid classes with little/no support abilities.
2: Frost mage / Hunter / Dps Warrior / Warlock - Pretty Self-Sustaining, durable classes with no little/no support abilities.
3: Shadowpriest / Elem shaman / Feral / Enhance shaman / Moonkin -Durable hybrid classes with strong support abilities.
Is that a correct way to balance them? It's shallow, i dont normally go on pure tank n'spanks as being a benchmark of usefulness..but im bored.
Fair? Its late so i know i forgot a crapload :). Reason im putting healing hybrids below dps/tank hybrid (warrior), is simply because healing is such a powerful ability. Mitigation and threat generation, everyone has *some*.
Why would a PVE Frost mage ever get Presence of Mind over Water Elemental?
I think it's more for the other deep arcane talents that are pretty ridiculous. The Mind Mastery talent alone adds like 100 spell damage in current mage gear. Your crits will be hitting for 250% damage with Ice Shards + Spell Power, Arcane Instability is a big dps boost itself. Arcane Potency seems decent, especially with the Ice Shards/Spell Power synergy.
Dunno if those talents are actually more damage overall then empowered Frostbolt/Water Elemental/Winter's Chill though. But, I'm guessing the reasoning is you gotta get a lot of non-dps oriented talents to get to them, whereas all the good arcane ones are grouped together and there's more of them.
When a talent tooltip says 100% or 50% extra critical strike bonus, it means just the crit bonus (i.e. the extra damage on crit) is increased. Since casters only get half damage added on crits, it is less powerful than Rogues get.
So if you just had the arcane talent, you would do 175% on crits, but with the Arcane and frost critical damage talents together, you get 225% on crits.
Edit: Beat to it by a few seconds
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Ask me again in a five to seven weeks how I feel about Shadow Priests vs Frost Mages. Mages have changed three or four times in the past two weeks. I've given up on trying to keep a simple spreadsheet updated, and am just relying on Blizzard figuring out where they want to slot each class.
Pretty much, yeah. I doubt things are going to change too much, though, vis-a-vis how things are in the current live game. Blizzard's been pretty consistent in their class dps balancing for the past two years.--which is, probably, unfortunate.
Well I really think Blizzard has taken this huge change as a chance to balance out everyones dps more to their liking, and so that's why we're going to see (and have started to see) so many changes across the board.
Things as little as warlock pets not benefiting as much from spell power, all the way up to the hunter complete overhaul.
11/05/06, 5:24 PM
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