I was sitting and wondering how a shadow priest would do in PvE at lvl 70. So I figured I would do a rough comparison with a frost mage just using frostbolts. This is in a 25 man raid, not in the same group. 2 min of pure dpsing on a boss.

Mage

700 spell damage

Talents: http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...10135010051050

Using:
48*Frostbolt (Rank 13). Costing 13464 mana and doing ~93,3k dmg accoring to my rough calculations (~780 dps)

Shadow priest

500 spell damage (I don't dare to think yet, that priests will get as much spell dmg as mages)

Talents: http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...10051123051051

Using:
5*SW:P (Rank 10). Costing 2875 mana and doing 10740 dmg(with only the spell dmg as modifier)
8* VT (Rank 3). Costing 2125 mana and doing 5950 dmg(with only the spell dmg as modifier)
8*MB (Rank 11). Costing 1913 mana and doing 5187 dmg(with only the spell dmg as modifier)
29*MF (Rank 8). Costing 5684 mana and doing 29812 dmg (with only the spell dmg as modifier)

Total 12597(-4342=8255) mana 86850 dmg(with all the modifiers) (~720 dps)

Now here comes the twist: Vampiric touch. Vampiric touch and VE gives the priest and the rest of the group 4342 mana and 26055 hp. Lowering the priests total mana cost of all spells to 8255.

My calculations are rough, I know, but they still prove a point imo. I'm no mage expert so if any mage has a better suggestion on use of spells and talents, please tell me.

My question here is: Will these sort of things bring shadow priests more into PvE then atm? Since the mana does not seem to be a problem for a shadow priest. Since everytime I mentioned a shadow priest in PvE all I heard was: Mana inefficient, mana inefficient and so on. Even if I have made some small misscalculations or that my talent speccs aren't perfect. I still don't think that fixing that would make up for the amount of mana and thereby dps a shadow priest would give to his group and raid. (This is from my PoV on the shadow priests in end game PvE atm)

When was the last boss fight that lasted 2 min? Do the same math for 5 and 10 mins, respectively.

I don't see what exactly you're taking into account for calculating damage. For example, what's the crit-rate of the Frost Mage and Shadow Priest? What debuffs are you taking into account when calculating dps?

Sorry

Mage: Misery, Curse of elements and a 25% crit(5 stacks of winter's chill)

Priest: Curse of shadows, Misery, 5/5 Shadow weaving and 10% crit rate.

And of course the talents.

Well this is more to prove a point. If a mage atm can do nice dps on a boss like Patchwerk, then should a shadow priest also be able to, if my calculations are correct, hold around that dps and give hp and mana to the group. With less total mana cost.

You didn't take into account for Shadow Word: Death, nor did you choose the best PvE frost build. Nor the best PvE shadow build.

Clean up the maths, add in the obscene threat reducing tools that a shadowpriest would have, and you have a point :).

Also if mana aint an issue then that talent spec for priests isnt the best for dps, try adding imp. Mind blast and some points in shadow power, and taking away some disc talents. Im no priest expert, but thats more damage that makes use of all that lovely extra mana.

EDIT: For a pure raid build, this would probably be the best frost build i can think of, gotta be pretty masochistic to give up shatter as a frost mage ofc.

Edit2:Bleh a couple of adjustments, but thats the basic build, imp arc missiles and a few 'free' points could be swapped into impact/focus for blast usage.

Why would a PVE Frost mage ever get Presence of Mind over Water Elemental?

I'm a pve Shadow Priest in the current Live game.

I raid currently with 5 spellhit (still after another point), 69mp5 and +636 dmg.
For trash or short boss fights I swap out 16mp5 for another +29 dmg.

In my max damage gear I'm sitting at pretty much +700 unbuffed dmg.

So yeah, +500 dmg for the Shadow Priest is sort of low for pve. ;)

Your Shadow Priest talent spec looks mostly fine though you'll be wanting to have points in Shadow Reach. On certain fights the extra range helps immensely.

The frostmage will be able do 3 times that dmg on longer fights with his mana rubies, evocation, clearcasting and 45% spirit regen while casting + he gets extra dps from water elemental.

1) Okay you havn't played a shadow priest in pure raid PvE before, this much is apparent in your spec.
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...10250123051051
or
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...123051051#none
Are more raid friendly specs, although individual assessments of the worth of: crit talent/mind blast cool down/mental agility will change individual PvE shadow specs. Silence/focused casting given *CURRENT RAID ENCOUNTERS* are strictly the domain of the PvP shadow priest. (All value judgments subject to change when lvl 70 raid encounters come out) These are a no-no for the pure pve priest. =P

2) Tier 4 levels of +dmg for a shadow priest are going to be in the 550-650++ range given the current Beta itemization. I'm toting around 620 on live and have a trinket, wand, cloak, and weapon upgrade on Beta (although I can't equip all atm). Comparing the T4 nuker set to current itemization available the +dmg numbers are similar when fully socketed out. I expect to have close to (or more than) 700+dmg available for lvl 70 raiding.

Yes. We're already in your raid instances stealing your loots in many many guilds.
Do not expect us to fade into the shadows in the expansion- if anything we are a far far far more raid viable class. Expect to see us face melting in an instance near you.

Edit: Oh and what scaling numbers are you using for shadow priests + mindflay? I haven't given your numbers a run through the wringer to check, but we've been everywhere from 40something to 81%- the 57% number has stabilized for 2 patches and looks like it may be a semi final number atm. This is a buff from live. (if you were using live numbers) We also have Shadow fiend, but they are in the process of adjusting the scaling for that (the last push showed a decrease in scaling, Ilike to see 2 pushes before I get comfortable with any scaling) so adding up the numbers with that included is kinda dicy, but he does damage and returns mana as well.

http://blue.cardplace.com/newcache/en/75297770.htm

Ask me again in a five to seven weeks how I feel about Shadow Priests vs Frost Mages. Mages have changed three or four times in the past two weeks. I've given up on trying to keep a simple spreadsheet updated, and am just relying on Blizzard figuring out where they want to slot each class.

I hate to disagree with you Bekah but I'm a firm believer in that Shadow Priests in pve derive their from their utility as well as their DPS. This is why I can never understand the pve Shadow Priests that don't spec for Silence.
Yes, there aren't that many fights where it's used currently but there are still some where it's very nice to have.
The only real change to your spec is you've picked up Mental Agility which only lowers the cost of SW:D, SW:P and VE for us.
Yes, that spec would help with your lasting ability but you're giving up a fair bit of utility.

Also in the expansion a 1/5 in Imp. Mind Blast isn't that bad a thing given how it dovetails nicely into a Mind Blast, SW:D, Flay, Flay cycle.

Sorry, since classes are still in flux, this discussion doesn't have much worth (also you talent selections are poor for raid dps).

i've done a number of 5 mans (67 lock) in beta, in both regular and hard mode with mages/shadow priests. this is anecdotal only (i do have a 60 priest but havent played in a while).

basically locks/mages/priests stay together on dmg meters for the first min or two of fight. after that it depends if there are adds or not. If there are, priests and locks can keep up. If not, mage pulls ahead and the gap grows wider. most of the 5 man bosses so far have been w/o adds, or trivial adds that you kill first and then hit the boss.

priests have a very tough time on mana still. the shadow priests were going oom very quickly and couldn't regen much (none of us were potting, flasking, etc just taking it easy). locks had an easy time with vt/ve/siphon, could pretty much keep constant mana bar going. mages would do well with evo up to the 6-8 min mark.

for the auchindon bosses it was no contest, mages were almost always ahead, locks a respectable second, and shadow priests far far behind. the bosses are 4-7 min fights. i imagine it would just be worse in 25 man raids.

without seeing the real 25 man raids and their setups (adds, healing needed, how long fights, etc) its difficult to say how raid compositions will be.