Having some problems with the spawns.

I cannot see a way to control them 100% safely. Tank, shackle, both; everything comes to an end when the tank/priest is mind controlled and we lose control on the combat. We're reaching phase 3 at almost every attempt, with 35+ people most of the time, but that looks extremely hard to have full control on them. We wiped at 1% just because 2 tanks in a row got frost blast and 3 ads two shotted every next healer, healing 3k ticks from that icecube was pretty hard it seems. Another wipe was because mind controlling the tank of 2 ads. All these overall look too random.

Are we supposed to kill Kelthuzad before it kills us like at ouro, or does anyone have a solid tactic for the ads? I'm used to having a secondary tank, or any secondary method for things like mind controls or frost blasts; here I felt hopeless. After spending 3 days on horsemen I dont really think we can down him this week, but we can at least hope for the best.

Like most posts like this, you answered your own questions.

I'm afraid I couldnt, he'd be dead otherwise. We're kinda stuck in a deadend, that's what leads me here.

You don't want any DPS on the adds. Tank / Shackle them.

Tank and shackle them. The adds are ofcourse a problem, that's why they're there. But try your best with shackling and tanking them. All your warriors should be dressed in tanking gear, perhaps the dps warriors in hybrid gear. Also, you need to keep cool when p3 hits and keep your positioning so you only get 1, max 2 frost blast encasings.

Did you actually even try this?

My point is, before asking "Should we do this?" how about trying it?

Really unsure how on earth your bug tanks got mced. Did you just not have anyone dpsing kel? Really, once you have all the adds under control, phase 3 is no different to phase 2 for us. The only problem for us is the 10 seconds after they first spawn but after that, its pretty much smooth sailing if they haven't already caused too much damage.

I didnt actually mean exactly fast as ouro, or any hard nuking like that. :)

As said, we're wiping slowly when it hits. It seems to be heavily dependant on luck, which I dont want to believe. If that's what we should accept in the first hand, dealing with luck I mean, that would answer that question.

I wouldn't compare Kel'Thuzad to Ouro: on a perfect Kel'Thuzad kill you're going to have your whole raid alive, whereas our Ouro kills are with barely 10 people up. We treated phase 3 sort of like huhuran's enrage : we stop dps at 42% and wait for the MC, once he's done that we go all out. About the adds: We shackled 3 and offtanked 2; priests said you somehow can't shackle all of them. Apparently the remaining ass are immune to shackle so you're always going to have to offtank 2.
We managed to keep the fight completely under control, we had no deaths from the guardians and only lost a few melee due to frost blasts around 10% since they were getting antsy and ignored the move in/out warnings.

Yes, 3 is the max you can shackle. Memory is a little hazy as we haven't tried shackling more for a number of weeks but I'm pretty sure all current shackles get dispelled if you try and shackle more, rather than just one breaking/extras being immune. If the tanked bugs don't change target too often, then won't hit for very much at all. Our bug tanks don't actually do anything at all in phase 2 anyway, so really phase 3 is almost exactly the same, with just a little more healing required. This is of course assuming you can get the bugs under control easily/quickly. If you can't, well.. things can get very ugly very quickly.

eh? ouro is perfectly killable with 0 deaths. kel is the same way.

but yeah, DPS kel, control guardians, collect purplz. blood tap and AOE dispels makes it ultimately non-sustainable, but you have time. make sure people have their cooldowns ready to blow when you hit 40 to make it go faster - i always time it so i have rapid fire/kots ready for stage 3.

We saw that in the hard way too, having more hp isnt really that good at kelthuzad; especially while tanking 2 ads a frostblast is almost impossible to counter if you have 12k hp.

About mc, didnt think it was totally threat based(is it?) since the priests and hunters etc were getting it; apart from the tank it seemed random. I hope you meant the offtanks wont get mc? Or was it just to get less mind controls during p3?

We usually wait for an mc before going below 40%. This reduces the total number of MCs you are going to take sub 40% and more importantly makes certain you won't get an MC just as the adds spawn which can get very messy with the amount of stuff going on. The bug tanks should never get MCed unless they have been dpsing just prior to tanking.

I was just curious, on average how many offtanks do guilds use? As many as they could get?

We've been trying with 5-6 warriors, but we always run out. Has anyone had any luck doing it P3 with less than five warriors?

When you say offtanks are you referring to those that take care of bugs or total number of warriors minus the MT? In all our kills we had 7, 4 on KT and assigned 3 warriors to sit around waiting for bugs. First 3 are shackled by assigned priests(backups assigned to each priest just in case) and given a raid icon, the 3 warriors sort out the other two.

Hmm, we've had offtanks get MCd in P3 and we go all out on him then, so I don't see how the MC targets beside the MT can have anything to do with threat.

As others have said, waiting for an MC pre 40% and then burning him down works, I would not, however, count on killing him before you have another MC in phase 3. He will still have 1.12 million HP or so, and the earliest an MC can come is in 60 seconds, which would require you to do 18.6k raid DPS (assuming you start going full out from the second MC hits, which isn't true) to kill him in time. Obviously, the MC can take longer also, but you hardly are guaranteed to kill him within one MC in P3. Therefore you should be prepared for a tankswitch there.

Yeah, the MC is tank + random(3?). It doesn't really matter if you have people applying dps to KT or not, there's a chance your add tanks will get charmed.

I would like to have more conversation about the fight, it could help guilds like ours who might have very limited time left to kill him. We have now used one and a half raid there, Kel has been something like 65-70% at best, and I expect us to reach p3 today. I'm however worried that we won't be doing fast enough progress, considering next reset might very much be the last one before the anti-naxx patch 2.0.1. I know that some guild have killed Kel in 3 raids, but how long in general it has taken before the guilds have gotten him, and how long it took after they reached p3 constantly with 35+ people alive?

We have still several problems in p2, and even the transition is not looking pretty. The biggest problem seems to be the mind control. Someone mentioned that they have only 2 tanks on Kel, how do you manage the situation when both of them get mindcontrolled, or do you use more than that until p3? I think we had 3 tanks on Kel, but since we normally lost at least one to single target frostbolt quite early, we did not manage to do proper tank swaps too many times. Also, somehow DPS managed to pull aggro even on no DPS try, but I assume it's because we do not understand the aggro limits/reductions yet properly.

Frost blast on melee was an another problem. We have everyone spread around Kel like on C'Thun. Are guilds moving all melee except tanks/interrupters away when frost blast warning comes, and then move in after blast has happened? We lost often melee interrupters to frost blast, and even if they survived, MT got single bolted to death during the time they were stunned. Also, are you saving mage counterspell for the mind control, or use it on helping the interruptions on Kel (might be wrong info that it even works, but I think some of our mage said it does)?

How much frost resistance are people using on tanks and on DPS? I think we did not use anything because of the needed DPS on p1 (and p3 in future), except one of the main tanks tested with around 100 unbuffed FrR with quite good results.

I know these things can be learned by doing the fight, but can't do it really from work and before tonights raid. I just have a bad feeling we are running out of time.

for frr, healers should use something like cloak + ring, maybe 1 more piece. same for dps or a bit more. make up for the loss of dps with pots. make sure all dps leaves all cooldowns avaible until about 30 seconds before p1 ends. as soon as kel steps in, focus ALL dps (with the exception of the pummel/kick etc guys) on any abominations that are alive. kite the wraiths. as soon as abos are down, all ranged dps takes down the ghosts.
never have more then seven melees on KT. have them stand like this:

MT
1 KT 2
3

on spots 1,2,3 TWO melee dps stand right on top of each other. make sure they are on max melee range so they don't link each other. that way you won't ever have more then 2 guys ice blocked and thats easily healable, if ppl aren't asleep. make your guys use cthun warner for range check, if they are blind. and the MT of course always stands alone, never risk him getting chain blocked. use cthun setup for the rest of the raid, make sure the healers are in range of the melees in their group even if they are on the other side of the room. we use the setup like this while the MT just picks a position and gr1 is always on KT's left arm, gr 3 behind (have dagger rogues in this spot) and gr 2 on his right arm. that way theres less confusion but it can happen that a rogue whos group is on the left side of the room stands in melee range on the right side. as long as the healer in his group isn't in the back, thats no problem though. have all your warriors in full tank gear. dps is not needed, its a survival fight. when bugs spawn, tank 2-3, shackle 2-3. always make sure theres a backup tank/shackle ready. if your dps sucks, you might have to switch mobs as in a priest shackles a big bug (they grow over time and do more and more dmg) and the tank grabs the previously shackled, small mob. if your dps is alright, that won't be needed as the warrior can just tank it all the way. make sure the warriors bring their tanked mobs in the back of hte rooms where stuff spawns in p1. makes it a bit simpler and less crowded. forget aobut kiting them when they grow, thats imo crap and risks ice blocks. a tank in full gear should easily be able to tank him till hes dead, also if you don't use world buffs for dps. if you have too many ppl dead, switch shackle + tanked mob and you'll be fine.

Not to be a complete dick, but can you edit that so I can read it please? Punctuation and paragraphs make reading fun!

I'm siding with Squat on this one. "Engrish not first ranguage" notwithstanding, that post is an abomination and future posts like it are likely to get you banned.