What should we expect in damage from our raid hunters? - Page 2

Zurai · 11/07/06, 5:18 PM

One thousand twelve hundred damage per second? I've never even heard of top geared elite fury warriors, or ignite-stealing fire mages breaking 1000 DPS.

McInaction · 11/07/06, 5:21 PM

Originally Posted by Dwargue

coming from a rogue background, 1 dps gain is enough for me to give it some thought.

i guess hunters just don't feel the need to squeeze out every bit of dps they can.

No, ammo is fairly insignifigant and is definately not the cause of hunters being substationally lower then they should be. I stated I do good damage with jaggeds (which I do) to emphasize that point.

Where there is a much larger problem it's not a good idea to pay attention to something as small and insignifigant as ammo until the larger problem is worked out.

That being said I still think they are using bad rotations.

Our hunters generally top our charts, doing around 1200dps on Patchwerk and a little under twice that on thaddius and loatheb. Hunters are an extremely powerful dps class, and if yours are at all competent they should be able to put out numbers like that on a regular basis

Oh wow did I really type 520-450? I ment 1520 and 1450 my bad.

Apparation · 11/07/06, 5:21 PM

Originally Posted by Fogbug

Our hunters generally top our charts, doing around 1200dps on Patchwerk

umm

Zurai · 11/07/06, 5:22 PM

Originally Posted by Dwargue

coming from a rogue background, 1 dps gain is enough for me to give it some thought.

i guess hunters just don't feel the need to squeeze out every bit of dps they can.

Ammo is by far the least important thing we can do to increase our DPS. I could be using the 1 copper per stack newbie ammo and still do within 0.2% of the raid damage/dps I do with jagged arrows. I've been seriously tempted to do so, in fact, because I'm down under 50g at the moment and we're getting to the consumable-intensive parts of naxx.

Glaurong · 11/07/06, 5:24 PM

Sarcasm translates so poorly in text.

Edit - Might as well contribute something.

If you are just getting started on AQ40 look for your hunters to be doing about 400-450 dps on boss fights depending on the mechanics.

If you blew through BWL that fast I'm guessing none of your hunters are in 8/8 ds?

Do any of them have the chromag xbow?

You are also relegating hunters to fill slots rather than grouping them beneficially. Using 1 hunter as the TSA guy is okay but you really want to stack up the rest with wolves, and make one of your moonkin druids go feral if you are going to compare you hunters to mages!

diotox · 11/07/06, 5:27 PM

I wouldn't worry about the ammo, I'd go double check all their weapons. Judging by the sound of your guild's progression I would assume all the hunters have at least rhok delar by now, but make sure. It's entirely within the realm of possibility that you guys have gotten horrid luck on leaf drops (unlikely, but we've seen it happen), and chromaggus can go months without coughing up a crossbow. I could also easily see someone being a complete slacker on doing the demon quests even if they did have a leaf. Basically, do a "hurricane patrol" and make sure you don't have anyone using that stupid bow. After that you can discuss shot cycles and what dps strategy they are using. Remember, a lot of people even in raid guilds aren't really min-maxers and will do the bare minimum to get by. Sometimes this is a conscious decision on their part, other times they are just ignorant and would improve their play but they don't realize their play is bad in the first place.

Dwargue · 11/07/06, 5:30 PM

Originally Posted by McInaction

Where there is a much larger problem it's not a good idea to pay attention to something as small and insignifigant as ammo until the larger problem is worked out.

i must conceed to this. With all the work from rogues like Kalman that have been posted here, as well as linked on the rogue forums, any rogue who wanted to maximize their damage can easily find the spreadsheets, spend 5 minutes to plug in the gear, and at least get a baseline for performance gains/losses.

alas, even at the naxx level, the guild i was in had people who still thought there was a hard-cap on +hit, who refused to believe that ACLG was godly, who refused to use SnD instead of Evis... these were the same people that really liked their matching T2 outfit though.. >_>

i suspect the same thing w/ hunters. Even though there's extensive writeups and simulations on damage cycles based on wpns, most hunters probably haven't made use of those resources.

Nurru · 11/07/06, 5:39 PM

While we're turning this thread into a useless pile I'd like to recommend you move off an RP server if you want your hunters to do good dps.

Emie · 11/07/06, 5:45 PM

Originally Posted by Nurru

While we're turning this thread into a useless pile I'd like to recommend you move off an RP server if you want your hunters to do good dps.

No

Judia · 11/07/06, 5:47 PM

From a group that always runs with 5 of each class, and therefore needs hutners and locks to pull their weight, I would say that on a boss fight hunter dps is directly proportional to the amount of time spent standing still.

On a fight like bug trio, skeram, or Sartura your damage meter should looks something like
Mages
Hutners/locks
Melee dps

On a fight where everyon is static like fankriss it should look more like:
Mages/Roges
Hunters/Locks/Warriors

If someone is low, consider their gear, their consumables, and what they are doing. If you cant find the problem then start looking at their dps cycle. Hunters should be able to beat warlocks on anyfight that does not give a natural break in which they can lifetap, C'thun is a good example of a fight where smart warlocks can lifetap at times when their dps in unaffected.

I find the best way to handle dps issues it to tell the person at the bottom of the meter to ask the person at the top for tips, rather than to be too agressive in handling them.

McInaction · 11/07/06, 5:50 PM

I just had a scary thought.

Do they have an auto shot timer mod? like sorren's hunter timers or zhunter mod?

It's pretty much impossible to maintain a good rotation if you can't see your autoshot time.

But we need more info, what weapons are they using first of all?

Secondly, are they potting, do they use mana pots or do they fd/drink?

How is their gear? mix of t1/t2?

Are they even trying to manage a rotation, or just going by cooldowns?

Emie · 11/07/06, 5:50 PM

Originally Posted by Kaide

An interesting setup you have there. We normally divide our groups a bit more evenly especially OT's and their healers. I'm just curious as to how you assign healers. 4 of your groups have no healers.
Do you actually assign healing groups for your healers or is it just all X-Healing?

Our healing lead typically assigns dedicated healing to the MT and any OTs or other specific people if its important for a fight. Other healers are getting assigned out to heal various parts of the raid as needed and just doing free for all healing on those groups. A good example is we have a couple free for all healers assigned to our ranged DPS on Firemaw. They have certain classes to keep an eye on but no one specific. There is no reason they need to be in the same group to heal their assigned group unless your healing strategy involves AoE healing. We do use AoE healing in some situations. Notably Vael. In this case, our group layout changes. But that wasn't really important to this discussion so I didn't go down that route.

Emie · 11/07/06, 5:55 PM

Originally Posted by McInaction

I just had a scary thought.

Do they have an auto shot timer mod? like sorren's hunter timers or zhunter mod?

It's pretty much impossible to maintain a good rotation if you can't see your autoshot time.

But we need more info, what weapons are they using first of all?

Secondly, are they potting, do they use mana pots or do they fd/drink?

How is their gear? mix of t1/t2?

Are they even trying to manage a rotation, or just going by cooldowns?

These are really good questions and certainly Im not able to answer them all with out going back and finding out first.

The timer mods, I dont know... good stuff though. I'll have to bring it up.
Pots,... I dont think so. At least not too much. I do think a few of them FD/Drink though.
Gear is a mix of T1/T2. Keep in mind we only farmed MC for 9 weeks and then 6 weeks in BWL with just our first Nef kill this last Sunday. So no one is 'decked out' at all. But no one is wearing utter crap either.
Rotations.... I dont know.. I will have to find out.
As to what the weapons they are using. I believe they all have their leaf bows. Perhaps 1 of them doesnt but I would have to double check.

I'm certainly interested in working on the DPS with them and the ideas you bring up is great. But I still don't know how to quantify when hunter DPS is Good, decent and lacking.

Zurai · 11/07/06, 5:57 PM

Originally Posted by Emie

Pots,... I dont think so. At least not too much. I do think a few of them FD/Drink though.

FD/Drink will kill their DPS. Tell the ones that do that to stock up on Superior Mana Potions (or Combat Mana Potions if they have the rank). They're cheap and entirely negate the need to feign to drink except on the longest, hardest DPS fights (which you havn't gotten to yet).

Emie · 11/07/06, 6:00 PM

Originally Posted by Judia

I find the best way to handle dps issues it to tell the person at the bottom of the meter to ask the person at the top for tips, rather than to be too agressive in handling them.

This is a good idea but all of them are pretty low on the meter so asking the bottom to query the guy at the top for tips isn't much of an improvement for anyone. They are pretty attentive people from what I can tell so I don't know what the problem is.

Like I said in the OP of course I understand that some fights favor classes and so on. I'm already taking that into account with the consideration. But when its consistent across all the bosses in BWL it makes me think there is a problem.