how in the world is patch not execute friendly? he's at 19% or below for a long time. or are you saying that's just because some guilds don't have warriors to spare? Saying that the fight isn't 'execute friendly' because it requires multiple tanks doesn't really make sense, when execute is very much one of the contributing factors to warriors placing high on so many patchwerk DMs. it's not like ignite where you need a bunch of mages to make it good - that 5th warrior can still put up insane numbers with execute even if 4 others are tanking.
one thing you're ignoring about patchwerk is that it's not only a threat-ignoring fight, but also a purely stationary fight, as well as one for which 'execute range' is a huge window.
Patch isn't a very execute-friendly fight, so that's a bit of a silly statement. Few guilds that havn't cross-server recruited for 4HM have more than 5 or so warriors on any given night, and by far the most common patch strategy involves 4 warriors in tank gear.
If we stripped out our xserver warriors, we'd still usually have 5-7 warriors on on any given night. With xserver apps, our warrior raid attendance tends to be 6-8 on most fights (we do swap people in and out per fight, so that number changes as needed.)
Patch is a perfectly execute-friendly fight. Nice long window to execute in, execute typically forms 17-19% of our DPS warriors' DPS for Patchwerk (and yes, that's significant - 20-0 is a lot less than 1/5th of the fight in length).
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
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Execute cannot be done in defensive stance; the tanks taking hateful strikes can't switch out of defensive to execute or they'll get splatted on a high-end strike. Unless, of course, they're dramatically overgeared (as Elendril is, which makes me roll my eyes at his boasting).
Patch isn't an execute friendly fight because execute contributes very little to the total damage done to him unless your raid is bursting at the seams with warriors. He does absolutely no damage except to the four people who can't switch stances to execute, which means any other warriors can't spam execute; they have to build rage through autoattacks, which even with top end gear takes a few hits. On top of that, there's very rarely more than one, maybe two, warriors using execute. One execute every 5-6 seconds for non-full-rage-bar damage isn't a major contributor to the fight.
I don't know; maybe my perspective is skewed. 5 is the most warriors we've had for a very long time. We got 6 for last night's patch kill and I can't remember the last time we've had 6 warriors. One of those two "spare" warriors was using Nightfall, which means his rage generation wasn't really all that hot. It also meant that using executes wasn't as good for the raid as it could have been, since it meant drastically fewer Nightfall procs during the last 1/5 of patch's health, and nightfall ends up being a huge source of damage during the fight (usually over 200k).
Execute cannot be done in defensive stance; the tanks taking hateful strikes can't switch out of defensive to execute or they'll get splatted on a high-end strike. Unless, of course, they're dramatically overgeared (as Elendril is, which makes me roll my eyes at his boasting).
it's funny that you're calling me dramatically overgeared when my entire raid group has comparable gear, and i specifically linked to our DKP site if you'd like to cross reference my claims. and the point of my posts is not boasting - hell, i posted damage meters from fights where i got completely blown out for various reasons as well as those where i did a lot of damage. the point of my posts is to provide context for people who whine that hunter damage is so low and show them that their claims are simply off-base. i don't regularly SS damage meters and went out of my way to do it specifically for this thread, which is asking about hunter damage output - my goal is only to show what hunters CAN do, not how awesome i am. although, to be fair, i'm pretty damn awesome. i mean really. but hey, roll your eyes all you want.
and the fact that your guild has 5 warriors doesn't mean that patchwerk isn't an execute friendly fight - the mechanics of the fight are very much execute friendly - if you can't take advantage of that fact because of your raid composition, that doesn't change that fact. now, it's not as execute friendly as loatheb or thaddius, where warriors are generating insane rage from autoattack, but the huge HP pool means that execute is a much higher percentage of a warrior's damage than on a fight like, say, gothik.
I've gotten 700+ DPS on Patchwerk as Mortal Strike simply from a good roll in Execute range (was hovering low 600 before it).
It is probably the second most execute friendly fight in the game, besides Thaddius.
Edit - And for all the shit I like to give our hunters about their class being bad at DPS, it is also always consistent, always low maintenance, and free from other class worry. Furious Howl/TSA are also excellent group DPS boosters, and NR / Cheetah auras are extremely helpful when applicable.
There is a lot more to a DPS classes raid value than simply raw DPS.
Quoted for modesty. In my old guild, a hunter regularly placed first on the damage meters by a comfortable margin. This probably has something to do with most mages still being frost at the time, but nevertheless if played correctly a hunter can put up very competitive numbers.
it's funny that you're calling me dramatically overgeared when my entire raid group has comparable gear, and i specifically linked to our DKP site if you'd like to cross reference my claims.
Overgeared compared to the fight, not other people; speeding up the fights favors hunters, since our DPS is completely independant of time, while rogues get a big boost from being able to use their cooldowns twice and warriors get a big boost from longer execute times (yes, I said it - I'll explain later). I'd also be extremely surprised if everyone in your guild has Kel'Thuzad weapons and 8/8 tier 3 with Sapphiron shoulder enchants, especially since you've only killed KT, what, 5 or 6 times?
As for patch being not an execute friendly fight - individually, execute is as good as ever. For the entire raid's damage, though, execute really isn't as big a deal as it is in virtually any other boss fight. There are very few bosses that require 4 solid tanks in defensive stance, and fewer still with NO raid damage to increase rage generation (I actually can't think of any others with both those qualifications). Execute really doesn't speed up the fight much post 19%. In fact, for us, the last 19% only took about 5 or 6 seconds less than the first 19%.
Quoted for modesty. In my old guild, a hunter regularly placed first on the damage meters by a comfortable margin. This probably has something to do with most mages still being frost at the time, but nevertheless if played correctly a hunter can put up very competitive numbers.
That means less than you think it does.
I placed number 1 and 2 (second only to another hunter) just about every fight in BWL, until the rogues stopped being retarded and actually tried, then it got harder to hold the top slot. (But it was still achievable.)
There are fights where hunters can place well and with effort can still place high, but if every fight they're hitting number 1, give your rogues and mages a good swift kick.
For dagger rogues windfury isnt a huge boost compared to poison. For warriors and sword/mace/fist rogue however.
you're misinformed, windfury owns for combat daggers.
With my gear setup IP VI + GoA is actually a slight DPS increase over Windfury.
Just quickly switching my weapon to a Death's Sting on the spreadsheet, however, reverses that upgrade (it's +/- ~1dps on both sides). So even for a Naxx geared combat daggers rogue I think you can hardly say that Windfury "owns" for combat daggers that much more than GoA + Poison.
Change that IP VI on your MH to Deadly V and see what happens in your sheet :p
that was meant to be tongue-in-cheek, but i suppose sarcasm doesn't carry well online ;)
as for zurai's comments - like i said, you're welcome to look at my guildmates' gear for a sense of how my gear compares. your contention re: the relative benefit hunters get in fights of certain durations compared to other classes is interesting, but not terribly convincing, especially since in fights that go just over 5 minutes i also get an extra rapid fire/kots stack, which does a lot of damage. it would be interesting to track relative class performance based on fight length, but i don't have that data myself.
i also performed comparably on our damage meters long before i had a slavemaker - i was similarly #1 on our first noth kill ever with striker's garb and ash. my contibution to raid damage isn't a sudden development in the past month or so since i got a new weapon, and i'm really not sure why you're trying so hard to suggest that there's something to the meters i'm posting other than the fact that hunters really do have the potential to do solid damage.
For dagger rogues windfury isnt a huge boost compared to poison. For warriors and sword/mace/fist rogue however.
you're misinformed, windfury owns for combat daggers.
With my gear setup IP VI + GoA is actually a slight DPS increase over Windfury.
Just quickly switching my weapon to a Death's Sting on the spreadsheet, however, reverses that upgrade (it's +/- ~1dps on both sides). So even for a Naxx geared combat daggers rogue I think you can hardly say that Windfury "owns" for combat daggers that much more than GoA + Poison.
The comparison is actually Windfury + Battle Shout vs GOA + Poison. If you have a warrior in your group for battle shout, they gain far more out of Windfury over GOA than three rogues could gain with any gearset out of GOA + Poison over Windfury, so warrior in the group = windfury. If for some reason your group is only rogues/hunters and a shaman, then GOA is probably the correct choice, yes.
Patch isn't an execute friendly fight because execute contributes very little to the total damage done to him unless your raid is bursting at the seams with warriors. He does absolutely no damage except to the four people who can't switch stances to execute, which means any other warriors can't spam execute; they have to build rage through autoattacks, which even with top end gear takes a few hits. On top of that, there's very rarely more than one, maybe two, warriors using execute. One execute every 5-6 seconds for non-full-rage-bar damage isn't a major contributor to the fight.
You want your executes to be with as little rage as possible. A well geared fury warrior with fast weapons he can switch to in execute range can push out an execute on the global cooldown which is significant dps.
However unless your bursting at the seams with warriors its likely that you wont be having alot of them actually doing DPS.
you're misinformed, windfury owns for combat daggers.
With my gear setup IP VI + GoA is actually a slight DPS increase over Windfury.
Just quickly switching my weapon to a Death's Sting on the spreadsheet, however, reverses that upgrade (it's +/- ~1dps on both sides). So even for a Naxx geared combat daggers rogue I think you can hardly say that Windfury "owns" for combat daggers that much more than GoA + Poison.
Change that IP VI on your MH to Deadly V and see what happens in your sheet :p
Yea the marginal increase in DPS from MH Deadly V is not worth screwing a Warlock out of a DoT or accidently pushing off an Ignite.
Originally Posted by RK
The comparison is actually Windfury + Battle Shout vs GOA + Poison. If you have a warrior in your group for battle shout, they gain far more out of Windfury over GOA than three rogues could gain with any gearset out of GOA + Poison over Windfury, so warrior in the group = windfury. If for some reason your group is only rogues/hunters and a shaman, then GOA is probably the correct choice, yes.
I'd say that's assumed :D
Battle Shout is pretty much the single best buff a rogue can get for DPS. Hell, it rivals most worldbuffs (beats out Dragon Buff last I checked for added DPS).
However unless your bursting at the seams with warriors its likely that you wont be having alot of them actually doing DPS.
Exactly. That's what I meant.
I'll admit that I'm somewhat ignorant of the intricacies of Execute - I'm working off what my guild's warriors told me when I mentioned that he'd go a lot faster once we got him to 19%. They were unanimous (and correct, as it turned out) in saying that Execute really isn't a factor in the fight.
Anyway, this is pretty far off-course. I'll not derail the thread further by continuing this discussion.
Since this thread is largly going on about Hunter DPS, I'm curious to know how many hunters use the 20/31/0 build and if it's viable in late Naxxramas. And for those who don't have 20 points in BM, how do you use your pets and how do you keep them alive? I am using a Wolf, but mostly he's just giving me the 50 AP buff from 4/9 CS and giving rogues howl when its a pet friendly fight like Patchwerk. On fights like Loatheb I just send him until he dies, but perhaps I'm doing something wrong :p. On fights like Gothik I try to find a position he doesn't get hit by any AoE.
Rayder (my wolf) actively DPS's on most fights, barring 4h, sapphiron, and kel'thuzad. on 4h i can park him in the safe spot to give howl and striker's ally, but on 4h and kel he just dies to environmental damage, so it's not worth it. he dies every loatheb, but not after contributing a reasonable amount of damage between attacking and buffing me/my group.
Rayder (my wolf) actively DPS's on most fights, barring 4h, sapphiron, and kel'thuzad. on 4h i can park him in the safe spot to give howl and striker's ally, but on 4h and kel he just dies to environmental damage, so it's not worth it. he dies every loatheb, but not after contributing a reasonable amount of damage between attacking and buffing me/my group.
Your healers must be very nice. ><
My pet doesn't survive on Faerlina/Noth/Maexxna, and I don't use him on Anub/Grobb/Heigan. (Is it possible to?)
yeah, i group myself specifically with pet-friendly priests :) pets are immune to locust swarm, though they can get impaled. grobbulus your pet can actually constantly melee if your tank is moving around the room fast enough for you to have normal melee on him. and heigan - well, yeah, pets are great dancers :-P rayder did survive a speed phase once, though. i was so proud.
Rayder (my wolf) actively DPS's on most fights, barring 4h, sapphiron, and kel'thuzad. on 4h i can park him in the safe spot to give howl and striker's ally, but on 4h and kel he just dies to environmental damage, so it's not worth it. he dies every loatheb, but not after contributing a reasonable amount of damage between attacking and buffing me/my group.
Your healers must be very nice. ><
My pet doesn't survive on Faerlina/Noth/Maexxna, and I don't use him on Anub/Grobb/Heigan. (Is it possible to?)
Anub your pet can survive easily (unaffected by Locust Swarm), and if it dies it doesn't spawn scarabs. Grobbulus I use my wolf as a furious howl totem, and on Heigan he will die instantly no matter what.
Faerlina and Maexxna are fights where your pet should be able to survive pretty easily. For Horde at least, chain heals will heal up the rain of fire ticks from Faerlina. All that is needed is a priest in your group for Maexxna and PoH will keep him up the entire fight. Noth... I've always dismissed my pet for him ever since a rogue's Vanquished Tentacle didn't get decursed and wiped the raid while we were learning the encounter.
11/09/06, 4:10 PM
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