I'm just trying to get a quick estimate of what people's kill-time comparison tends to be between Patchwerk, Thaddius, and Loatheb. Do some guilds who can kill Thaddius go visit Loatheb and find themselves simply coming up short?
Our Patchwerk kills hover around 6 minutes, although I know people aren't splurging like crazy on buffs at this point. Best is something like 5:40, I think. Our three Thaddius kills have been 5:03, 5:03, and 4:59. All those kills had some deaths, however (37-38 up for the first two kills, and fewer for the last), so could have been faster. Also, we tend to have about 8 Hun/Wlk.
How are people with similar groups faring at Loatheb? Real nail-biter? Easy as long as there are no major messups? Necessary to try to stretch it out to 5:40? I figured that a bit of comparison might tell more than what we could estimate by trying the first 2 minutes without buffs.
We kill Patchwerk everytime around 5:30 without heavy buffing (well usual mongoose and such, no dps flasks), thaddius 4:30, and we still have to flask every caster to kill loatheb (and usually we kill him with everyone dead....).
We killed Thaddius in 4:25 the week we turned to Loatheb (for whatever reason we decided to learn Gothik, which took a few days, before doing Loatheb), and I was pretty confident we'd destroy him since we'd always had good DPS. Without world buffs and with a fully buffed raid including flasked mages, we wiped at 6%, then 4%, then 3%. (Yes, we used 480 GSPPs in one night as a guild ... fuck that night :socar: ) Then we killed him in 5:40ish with very few left standing. Loatheb takes more DPS than you think it does, in short. We should have used world buffs.
Here's the best way to do Loatheb, in my view:
1) Do numerous "dry" runs, aiming to get him to 60% by the time he starts casting Doom, and making sure everyone is getting their Spore and your tank isn't dying or coming too close to dying. Have the tank leash him after 2 min.
2) Suck it up and accept some gold costs and do one unbuffed run using two GSPPs, a healthstone, and bandages. Don't use a third pot (pre-drink one, use the other), but basically you want to make it to the 5min mark before your raid all drops dead because you didn't pot a third time. You want to give everyone one run to experience hitting all their consumable timers without getting distracted and missing spores or heals.
3) Get every conceivable world buff you can get your hands on. Darkmoon Faire is around this week, so you're in luck -- +10% damage for your whole raid and +10% armor for the tank is a godsend (+sta just modifies your base stamina and thus sucks). Hakkar heart is a must. Ony/Nef head if possible. EPL Tower. Maybe even Dire Maul if you want to go nuts. Destroy Loatheb. See how much margin for error you had there, and adjust accordingly in the future.
~6min PW (16 healers, not overly potted up)
~4min Thaddius (15-16 healers, no nature res gear on anyone, next to no dps pots)
Anywhere from 4:05 - 5:35 Loatheb. (12 healers, 1-2 prot warriors, and we often use world buffs that carry on through to Sapph/KT) Its hard to predict an expected kill time for the fight, though most of ours go past 4:30 and usually don't hit the 5 min mark.
Patchwerk: About 6 mins (Like 6:07 last kill i think) (16 healers, 4tanks for measures. 2 of like 8 mages were flasked)....
Thaddius has been 4:58, 5:04 (with some early deaths) no flasks at all, cept Titans on tank.
Loatheb we're still lacking. With 14 healers and only Mark+Fort our best so far is 69% before first doom lands (Aka 2 mins). At this point im uncertain if we just can't get there... If spores needs to be handled better... If my spore prio is off... Or if we just need another few weeks of AQ40 and Naxx to up the DPS.
Avg Patch 5.30 (no flasks)
Avg Thaddius 4.20 (no flasks)
Avg Loatheb 5.20 (flasks, all other buffs, ony/hakkar/faire)
I'm 100% positive that we can't yet kill Loatheb without world buffs.
Originally Posted by zeidrich
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Avg Patch 5.30 (no flasks)
Avg Thaddius 4.20 (no flasks)
Avg Loatheb 5.20 (flasks, all other buffs, ony/hakkar/faire)
I'm 100% positive that we can't yet kill Loatheb without world buffs.
Similar times for us; our Patchwerk times tend to be a bit shorter (hovering around 5 minutes) and our Thaddius times tend to be slightly longer (usually 15-20 seconds left pre-enrage rather than 40); our Loatheb times to some extent depend on buffs. Without the Faire buff, we usually kill him around doom 7-8. This week we couldn't get an Ony buff and it was an ugly kill, I think doom 9 or 10.
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
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I agree with gurg. You don't required world buffs for any mobs in naxx, but the added head room they offer make several encounters MUCH easier. We typically make sure to clear naxx up through gothic and loathab. This means once you roll one encounter (loathab) your prebuffed to the gills to run gothic. This lets you get the most out of any world buffs.
Honestly, a big thing on both these fights is dual wield dps warrior ownage. Dual wield warriors are the frozen jesus on loathab so keep that in mind. I can eat 5 dooms with no pots thanks to BT and BoL. In the mean time, my warrior can run over 900-1k sustained dps at loathab. A few dual wield dps warriors at this counter can really easily tip the tide.
Don't hold me to this number .. but i think PW was 4:30 or so last night. (Dual wield dps warrior boy was number 2... damn you rolling ignite ... damn you kirk!)
5:00 patch
4:45 thaddius (disconnects and early dead mages ftl)
doom 6-7ish on loatheb
The real interesting Loatheb encounters come when you have a mix bag of dps in a raid and the entire group wants to do Loatheb all of a sudden. We go from 7 rogues, 7 mages, 5 warriors, 2 hunters.....to 5 hunters, 5 mages, 5 rogues, 4 warriors. Raid makeup makes for either an exceptionally easy kill, or a holding your breath at 1% kill.
If you're ever having Loatheb problems, knock it down to 13 healers for the rotation....that really helps stack some DPS.
I'm positive we could kill Loatheb without world buffs, we were very very determined to kill him without them and had something like 10 wipes under 10%, and every single wipe was due to multiple people disconnecting and key dps (mages/warriors/rogues) missing spores. We now get world buffs every single week, and kill loatheb between 4:30 and 5:00 every time. I definately would not recommend wasting your time trying without world buffs, theres really no point, its not cost effective to risk it no matter how small the risk is. Praet gives some pretty spot on advice, I'd do it exactly as he said it.
I don't really get why our patchwerk seems to be way slower than everyone else but our thaddius is so much faster...really weird to see others posting times that are so much closer to each other
On PW we usually take our time, never been under 6 Min IIRC (unflasked).
Thaddius we did last at 4:40 or something like that.
And dropped Loatheb last night. Which came a little unexpected as we were in the process of perfecting the selfheal rotation. But our raid was kinda melee heavy stacked (9 rogues, 3 furies, 1 arms warrior) and we just buffed up as much as we could (consumables and flasks but NO single worldbuff)... wanted wo see how far we could come.
Surprisingly we wiped at 1%. A subsequent try resulted in another 1% wipe.
The third try brought the kill at 5:25 Min.
Frankly im kinda reliefed that a (albeit stacked) does not need any world buffs at any cost , as we are historically prone to wiping on the pull when FULLY buffed ^^
Needless to say we plan on killing him before sunday and getting hakkar, EPL and fairy buffs. Should spare us the nailbiting.
BTW as alliance melee on Loatheb you should save on Bandages but not on GSPP and Tubers/HS.
Should up your DPS by another 8sec per saved bandage.
I went into the fight with 5.6K HP and lived till the 5:40 doom procced. Used 3 GSPP, 1 Tuber and 1 HS.
JoL, heroism card, dual crusader and BT gets you this far.
Our patchwerk kills have been over 6 min every time, best kill so far is a 6:11, but we skipped Thaddius and went to Loatheb instead. World buffed up (Hakkar, Darkmoon and Rend, someone posted an Ony head like an hour before we started so we missed that buff) on Monday and had a 6% wipe - due purely to people missing spores and not using consumables in the order that I called out. We're doing him again tonight and expect to have the kill at sometime between Doom 7 and Doom 8.
Before our guild shakedown (which currently leaves us Pre-Thaddius), we had our first Thaddius kills at 5:06 and 4:56 (approximately) with our mages flasked and everybody in maximum DPS pots. We didn't raid stack because we had so many disconnects that we essentially had to roll with what we had (I was lucky to be there - wearing 2/5 Zandalar and Giantstalker).
The next week we attempted Loatheb, and got him to 6% using 3 GSPP, bandage, healthstone, flasks, and maximum DPS pots. No world buffs. The guild collapsed the next week, and currently we're having a crack at Thaddius again. The reformed guild had surprisingly little trouble beating Patchwerk before the enrage, although that can probably be attributed to our generally preserved mage/rogue base.
Unfortunately, we're one of those guilds with a penchant for absolutely throwing potions at encounters. With Patch, make sure you've got the gear and the healing down, and beating the enrage timer is thereafter not that hard. With Thaddius, minimising disconnects (and thus, maximising the buff) is integral. Loatheb is a bit easier to get the technique down, but make sure your spore breakers are working like clockwork.
It's surprising how easily the raid can screw up the basic multitasking of DPS/Self Healing/Spores at Loatheb. A single run with everything except World Buffs will give you a very good overview of where you might have problems, as Gurg has aptly pointed out.
IMHO the single most foolish thing you can do at Loatheb is go at him with World Buffs without having put the entire raid through all 5mins of the fight beforehand.
How do you leash Loatheb? The gate slams shut and there's no way out of there O_o
Have the MT run up against the gate and shuffle from side to side. Loatheb will attempt to reposition by walking through the gate, and will leash. This is a useful tactic on 4H as well.
We killed Thaddius in 4:25 the week we turned to Loatheb (for whatever reason we decided to learn Gothik, which took a few days, before doing Loatheb), and I was pretty confident we'd destroy him since we'd always had good DPS. Without world buffs and with a fully buffed raid including flasked mages, we wiped at 6%, then 4%, then 3%. (Yes, we used 480 GSPPs in one night as a guild ... fuck that night :socar: ) Then we killed him in 5:40ish with very few left standing. Loatheb takes more DPS than you think it does, in short. We should have used world buffs.
Here's the best way to do Loatheb, in my view:
1) Do numerous "dry" runs, aiming to get him to 60% by the time he starts casting Doom, and making sure everyone is getting their Spore and your tank isn't dying or coming too close to dying. Have the tank leash him after 2 min.
2) Suck it up and accept some gold costs and do one unbuffed run using two GSPPs, a healthstone, and bandages. Don't use a third pot (pre-drink one, use the other), but basically you want to make it to the 5min mark before your raid all drops dead because you didn't pot a third time. You want to give everyone one run to experience hitting all their consumable timers without getting distracted and missing spores or heals.
3) Get every conceivable world buff you can get your hands on. Darkmoon Faire is around this week, so you're in luck -- +10% damage for your whole raid and +10% armor for the tank is a godsend (+sta just modifies your base stamina and thus sucks). Hakkar heart is a must. Ony/Nef head if possible. EPL Tower. Maybe even Dire Maul if you want to go nuts. Destroy Loatheb. See how much margin for error you had there, and adjust accordingly in the future.
Yeah, we're doing Gothik first as well. It's surprisingly painless, and actually fun. A complaint I'd heard about Gothik is that you need to be buffed to even test/practice your strategy, which hasn't been the case for us at all.
The reason we're doing Thaddius/Gothik first was purely to put off Loatheb for as long as possible. We killed Heigan on 10/09, the day the last Elwynn fair started. I told the guild, "we have a week--we should go for it," but people generally didn't want to. At this point, I just consider it a chore that has to be taken care of sometime before we get the Horsemen down. Wait longer for gear, maybe snap up some Mag/Rog/War from collapsing guilds, ease the farming strain for everyone, and just be ready to give him a go on a day when we have perfect attendance.
Also, I find Gothik a lot of fun, and am looking forward to 4H more than anything I've ever done in this game. Loatheb, on the other hand, will be 6 minutes of abject terror. So maybe I'm a bit biased.
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Can you describe a reliable way to get the leash to trigger without delay? We've sometimes taken so long trying that everyone takes another Doom.
What do people who farm him do about the whole "Ony head is already up in SW" issue?
How do you leash Loatheb? The gate slams shut and there's no way out of there O_o
Have your tank run right up to the gate, flip Loatheb, and then walk towards him. Loatheb should readjust to melee range, and end up stepping just outside the gate (though it can take some time). He resets, and the gate opens.
Try pulling and let your tank spend the first two mins trying to reset him. Once he gets the hang of it you can do it on every practice attempt (particularly when you're still tweaking to hit the 65% mark).
We usually have the same results as you guys. I'd imagine the guilds that are doing ~5 min patchwerk kills and then 4:30+ thaddius kills are using significant nature res gear.
11/08/06, 9:55 AM
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