As Oaken said, this isn't the thread for a discussion of how powerful you believe our forms should be. I'm sorry you believe that druids are overstepping their bounds and that we should always be worse than our parent classes at everything, If you want to bring up our role dichotomy (quintachotomy?) and troll a mechanic discussion, the WoW forums are that way -------->
Originally Posted by Liar
Warrior version gives you 114.6 DPS. Druid version gives you 67.8 DPS +654 FAP (=46.7 DPS) for a total of 114.5 DPS. Close enough, eh? But that is only if a Moonkin swings the mace because he uses both AP and actual weapon DPS. Cats, however, do not have an innate paw DPS of 67.8, they only got 55 DPS. 55 DPS + 46.7 DPS is 101.7.
Liar is absolutely right, and I understand what he's saying now, that this item isn't budgeted properly. FAP is supposed to be a free stat given to bring our 'paws' up based on the iLevel of the weapon FAP is on, instead it looks like they're changing FAP to have a "cost" of the DPS on the weapon - but only on some weapons.
The original idea was to not penalize druids for being hybrids, and not have to carry a weapon to switch every time they shift forms, EoD, and MoUL have decreased DPS and the points from that DPS were used to increase stats/spell damage just like every caster item in the game. HoBF and BQW have appropriate DPS for their iLevel. All of these items included FAP as a free stat because Feral 'paws' don't scale with increased iLevel.
So we have our base attack damage not increasing as we level, and the items designed for the specific purpose of increasing it are pure feral items that force a talent in order to be equal DPS, completely negating the purpose of that talent. Shaman also have a talent that increases weapon damage by 10%, yet last time I checked Shamans don't take a 10% damage penalty on their weapons. I believe this is what Liar is pointing out
I'm going to shut up now before someone /stop's me.
It's just not a stat I like, because it's very very specific, on non specific items. That's just my opinion. I'm very much for specialized sets and weapons, but pre-determined class specific items.
I guess what I don't want to see is caster items losing some ilvl points to be allocated to FAP, when it's probably much more worthwhile to just throw a weapon like the qiraji mace or the green dragon mace into your hands.
Basically, I don't see the point of it. You can change weapons in combat, so make some really specific weapons that say druid only, otherwise I just feel it's a waste.
Not sure if that makes sense, but items that you have to think about to loot just makes me cringe, because eventually, a bad or unsavory decision is usually made.
Oh for fuck's sake. There's a total of one item that's a caster weapon with feral attack power, and absolutely zero new ones in the expansion. They learned from their mistake.
You and Pyros have successfully turned a good thread about why certain mechanics were selected into yet another thread about "Druids should be bad at everything besides healing and be happy, while I rolled a class with blonde hair and blue eyes".
You know who else told people how much DPS they should be doing merely based on their class? Hitler.
Since I've clearly demonstrated that LadyVex is just like Hitler I'm placing him in a bancentration camp temporarily.
Beef, that's so politically incorrect I shouldn't laugh.
But I am.
Boevis,
Originally Posted by Boevis
Originally Posted by Liar
Warrior version gives you 114.6 DPS. Druid version gives you 67.8 DPS +654 FAP (=46.7 DPS) for a total of 114.5 DPS. Close enough, eh? But that is only if a Moonkin swings the mace because he uses both AP and actual weapon DPS. Cats, however, do not have an innate paw DPS of 67.8, they only got 55 DPS. 55 DPS + 46.7 DPS is 101.7.
Liar is absolutely right, and I understand what he's saying now, that this item isn't budgeted properly. FAP is supposed to be a free stat given to bring our 'paws' up based on the iLevel of the weapon FAP is on, instead it looks like they're changing FAP to have a "cost" of the DPS on the weapon - but only on some weapons.
The original idea was to not penalize druids for being hybrids, and not have to carry a weapon to switch every time they shift forms, EoD, and MoUL have decreased DPS and the points from that DPS were used to increase stats/spell damage just like every caster item in the game. HoBF and BQW have appropriate DPS for their iLevel. All of these items included FAP as a free stat because Feral 'paws' don't scale with increased iLevel.
So we have our base attack damage not increasing as we level, and the items designed for the specific purpose of increasing it are pure feral items that force a talent in order to be equal DPS, completely negating the purpose of that talent. Shaman also have a talent that increases weapon damage by 10%, yet last time I checked Shamans don't take a 10% damage penalty on their weapons. I believe this is what Liar is pointing out
I disagree with the conclusions.
FAP is free. The only time FAP costs you anything is if they bumped up the base weapon damage to then be able to give you a higher FAP. The same thing applies to rogues, Warriors, etc. who pay item budget for higher base damage.
With respect to the 10% issue, I think it makes a lot of sense. I know you guys are looking at it as "Why do I have to take a feral talent to get the full dps from my weapon?" I don't look at it that way at all. I look at it as "Feral druids get full dps from their weapons through FAP. Resto and balance druids do not get full dps from their weapons through FAP." I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing. I certainly won't get into the whole "Druids as a gimped parent class" argument but it doesn't bother me in the least that if I don't spec for melee damage (i.e., Feral) then I won't do melee damage comparable to the parent classes. Because if I don't spec for healing, I don't get as many healing bonuses either. And if I don't spec for balance, I don't get as many caster crit and dps bonuses. That's the nature of specializing by tree.
Edit:
Hmmm...I see the point about Shaman (and Paladins as well) though. Does seem odd although neither of these classes get 2xStrength + Agility as their scaling damage ratio like cat does either.
The only catch I can see is not with naturalist + weapon AP, more so with stam. The Arena set is a perfect example, aving a reasonable degree less HP than other classes outside bear, means we'll end up with a situation where it's rarely practical to leave bear in pvp, simply because the HP disparity between the two will be rather large Already I'm looking at over 2.3k difference between my caster/cat and bear HP values at L63 using all pre-BC gear.
I honestly don't know what the answer is, because if they itemise us to have similar stam to other classes, HoTW bears will be near indesctructable, but if they don't, any other spec of druid, is going to be extra squishy vs other classes, especially considering they won't have mangle to give bear a burst option.
Because we get the exact same spell damage/healing as every other class. Our Melee DPS is the only thing that we recieve unproportionate to other classes.
That being said, I can understand it it slightly. Before with the Feral 1H weapons, we were getting FAP to cause Paw DPS = Average DPS of a 1h at that iLevel. Now that all the FAP is coming on 2H, the amount we're getting is a bit odd. One one end we have things like Vengeance Staff giving far less FAP than a epic 20 iLevels lower, on the other end we have Gladiator's Maul Giving over double the FAP of EOD.
iLvl Quality 1H 2H Feral
102 Green 53.8 70 67.5
114 Green 61.8 80.1 75.3
103 Blue 62.6 81.5 76.3
115 Blue 71.7 93.3 85.2
115 Epic 88.3 115 101.7
I think this is their answer to the "Like a rogue, but can't duel wield" so we get a base ~10% lower than 2H DPS.
FAP is free. The only time FAP costs you anything is if they bumped up the base weapon damage to then be able to give you a higher FAP. The same thing applies to rogues, Warriors, etc. who pay item budget for higher base damage.
Maybe there's items that aren't finished, but looking through the 2H's with FAP, a majority of the Greens have decreased weapon DPS, FAP, and nothing else.
The reason Catform gets Str x2 + Agi = AP is to compensate for having to use instant attacks at a 1.0 normalized speed.
Because we get the exact same spell damage/healing as every other class. Our Melee DPS is the only thing that we recieve unproportionate to other classes.
I'm not sure how you think we get the same spell damage/healing as every other class. A simple example:
Mage fireball, level 11, 3.5s cast, deals 561-715 damage then 72 over the next 8 seconds.
Druid starfire, level 7, 3.5s cast, deals 445 to 525 Arcane damage to the target. (or 496 to 584 if you want the spell useable at level 60).
Untalented, seems like there is a pretty significant difference in raw dps.
Edit: mages may be a bad example. Toss in a Warlock shadowbolt, level 9, 3s cast, deals 455-507 damage. Scale that up to a 3.5s cast and it is roughly 530-590 damage and you'll find it makes it roughly 10% more base damage than a druid).
Beef, that's so politically incorrect I shouldn't laugh.
But I am.
Boevis,
Originally Posted by Boevis
Originally Posted by Liar
Warrior version gives you 114.6 DPS. Druid version gives you 67.8 DPS +654 FAP (=46.7 DPS) for a total of 114.5 DPS. Close enough, eh? But that is only if a Moonkin swings the mace because he uses both AP and actual weapon DPS. Cats, however, do not have an innate paw DPS of 67.8, they only got 55 DPS. 55 DPS + 46.7 DPS is 101.7.
Liar is absolutely right, and I understand what he's saying now, that this item isn't budgeted properly. FAP is supposed to be a free stat given to bring our 'paws' up based on the iLevel of the weapon FAP is on, instead it looks like they're changing FAP to have a "cost" of the DPS on the weapon - but only on some weapons.
The original idea was to not penalize druids for being hybrids, and not have to carry a weapon to switch every time they shift forms, EoD, and MoUL have decreased DPS and the points from that DPS were used to increase stats/spell damage just like every caster item in the game. HoBF and BQW have appropriate DPS for their iLevel. All of these items included FAP as a free stat because Feral 'paws' don't scale with increased iLevel.
So we have our base attack damage not increasing as we level, and the items designed for the specific purpose of increasing it are pure feral items that force a talent in order to be equal DPS, completely negating the purpose of that talent. Shaman also have a talent that increases weapon damage by 10%, yet last time I checked Shamans don't take a 10% damage penalty on their weapons. I believe this is what Liar is pointing out
I disagree with the conclusions.
FAP is free. The only time FAP costs you anything is if they bumped up the base weapon damage to then be able to give you a higher FAP. The same thing applies to rogues, Warriors, etc. who pay item budget for higher base damage.
With respect to the 10% issue, I think it makes a lot of sense. I know you guys are looking at it as "Why do I have to take a feral talent to get the full dps from my weapon?" I don't look at it that way at all. I look at it as "Feral druids get full dps from their weapons through FAP. Resto and balance druids do not get full dps from their weapons through FAP." I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing. I certainly won't get into the whole "Druids as a gimped parent class" argument but it doesn't bother me in the least that if I don't spec for melee damage (i.e., Feral) then I won't do melee damage comparable to the parent classes. Because if I don't spec for healing, I don't get as many healing bonuses either. And if I don't spec for balance, I don't get as many caster crit and dps bonuses. That's the nature of specializing by tree.
Edit:
Hmmm...I see the point about Shaman (and Paladins as well) though. Does seem odd although neither of these classes get 2xStrength + Agility as their scaling damage ratio like cat does either.
Well, that is already true without adding a handicap via items. Like I said on the Druids discussion thread: If a Resto/Balance Druid is tanking instead of a Feral Druid in the same gear, they are out of luck twice: First because they lack the talents. Second because they gain less stats from items, especially Stamina. The FAP issue and the low Stamina all hint at Blizz including talents into their calculation, so if they want to give a tanking Druid a chest piece with 600 HP, they will slap 50 Stamina on it and let HotW do it's work. HotW is not a mere bonus or safety cushion: it has become a necessity (which in itself is not too bad but it hinders non-Feral Druids to tank alot more than it does in live where only the talents are different).
If Blizzard is being consistent, all Resto gear will have slightly reduced Spirit because of, you guessed, Living Spirit.
So unless Blizz is going to design Plate tanking items for Warriors with 5% less Stamina (Who really thinks they will? I don't.), Druids shapeshifting/hybriding roles are being diminished greatly. But hey, if that means we get closer to the power of specialist classes, I don't mind - but my pessimistic side tells me we won't so this is just an extra nerf. :(
Because we get the exact same spell damage/healing as every other class. Our Melee DPS is the only thing that we recieve unproportionate to other classes.
I'm not sure how you think we get the same spell damage/healing as every other class. A simple example:
Mage fireball, level 11, 3.5s cast, deals 561-715 damage then 72 over the next 8 seconds.
Druid starfire, level 7, 3.5s cast, deals 445 to 525 Arcane damage to the target. (or 496 to 584 if you want the spell useable at level 60).
Untalented, seems like there is a pretty significant difference in raw dps.
I think Boevis was refering to generic +Damage/Healing gear because we do get all of the benefits on those. If a Druid wears a +50 Damage Helm, he gets +50 Damage Helm. Said Helm will not give a Mage more +Damage (not counting talents because both classes can modify the value from there).
It's not like our arena sets have less total stats than other classes though, the points are just spread into other stats instead of stamina, so we're not necessarily less effective.
Exactly Liar (ok, I'm going to start calling you Elwynn from now on). It would be one thing if we didn't have a +10% attack damage talent and were just at 100% while other classes did, and our abilities made up the difference to reach the level of DPS intended for our class. This just feels like going to a store and seeing a one dollar item cost 1.50 but now you can get a coupon for 1/3 off.
Well, that is already true without adding a handicap via items. Like I said on the Druids discussion thread: If a Resto/Balance Druid is tanking instead of a Feral Druid in the same gear, they are out of luck twice: First because they lack the talents. Second because they gain less stats from items, especially Stamina. The FAP issue and the low Stamina all hint at Blizz including talents into their calculation, so if they want to give a tanking Druid a chest piece with 600 HP, they will slap 50 Stamina on it and let HotW do it's work. HotW is not a mere bonus or safety cushion: it has become a necessity (which in itself is not too bad but it hinders non-Feral Druids to tank alot more than it does in live where only the talents are different).
If Blizzard is being consistent, all Resto gear will have slightly reduced Spirit because of, you guessed, Living Spirit.
So unless Blizz is going to design Plate tanking items for Warriors with 5% less Stamina (Who really thinks they will? I don't.), Druids shapeshifting/hybriding roles are being diminished greatly. But hey, if that means we get closer to the power of specialist classes, I don't mind - but my pessimistic side tells me we won't so this is just an extra nerf. :(
Honestly, I don't think you can look at individual items and draw conclusions based on whether we're being nerfed or not. Let's take tanking as an example. Ultimately, Blizzard has in mind that a prot Warrior in T5 gear will have V amount of hp, X% mitigation, Y% avoidance, and the ability to generate Z amount of aggro per second. And they have in mind that a tanking Feral Druid in T5 will have some number V' of hp (> V), some X'% of mitigation (> X), some Y'% avoidance (< Y), and the ability to generate Z' amount of aggro per second. They will itemize gear to accomplish that. Now whether that makes us as effective as Warriors, more effective than Warriors (hah!), or less effective than Warriors we really don't know at this point because we don't know what those numbers. But whether they itemize to give us less Stamina in particular cases and then toss on a bigger HotW or more stamina and a larger bear form multiplier, or anything else it really doesn't matter until we hit that end-state and see what the total package adds up as. If you want to add up all the T5 bonuses and equip us both in the best rings and trinkets from Kharazan and the best feral weapon in TBC and then calculate mitigation and aggro and whatnot then you'll have a case for nerfed or not. But you can't tell me that itemization that takes into account HotW automatically nerfs us with respect to Warriors - not when they've made our bear hp bonus scale now and increased the armor bonus to 450%.
It does hinder non-Feral tanks more, I'll give you that. But then I believe Druids are different hybrids than the Shaman/Paladin sort who can do dps and heal in quick succession and the idea that you have to spec Feral to be a good tank doesn't suprise me. If that Shaman that has been pointed out doesn't spend his points in the Enhancement tree then he's not getting a 10% damage bonus from weapons either. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
Edit: Ok, I see what you are saying about about +damage scaling. Point taken.
Exactly Liar (ok, I'm going to start calling you Elwynn from now on). It would be one thing if we didn't have a +10% attack damage talent and were just at 100% while other classes did, and our abilities made up the difference to reach the level of DPS intended for our class. This just feels like going to a store and seeing a one dollar item cost 1.50 but now you can get a coupon for 1/3 off.
The level 70 game is balanced based on characters who have spent 61 talent points. I'm fairly certain developers aim for their desired balance on talented characters instead of untalented ones. Druid class has fairly weak base skills which scale very strongly based on the tree that is being picked.
In any case I'm sad to see this thread deteriorate to hybrid/not hybrid argument but since we are already here I'll just share my opinion.
We all *should* know how Blizzard stands on this: they want all classes to have approximately equal damage potential (though some classes by recent design seem acquire this more by buffing others than direct damage) while separating the selling points of the classes from the actual DPS output. A (feral) druid might do DPS close to that of a rogue but he still lack many of the other selling points of rogue: we can't dodgetank bosses during tanking hickups, we lack vanish as aggro management on sensitive fights and we can not reliably interrupt on neither C'thun nor Kel'Thuzad.
There are other points of varying significance, but to me at least it seems fairly obvious that it's not even an idea worth considering to throw "pure" classes out of raids in favour of a hybrid only raid - you lose much more versatility than you gain. While the ability to throw on healing gear for healing intensive fights does provide value, you don't need your entire raid to be able to do that - especially not if it comes at the cost of losing polymorphs, stuns, interrupts and so forth. A situation which would demand a feral druid to throw on his healing gear is in my experience not really any more special that one which would require a rogue to use his kicks and stuns.
It's not like our arena sets have less total stats than other classes though, the points are just spread into other stats instead of stamina, so we're not necessarily less effective.
Surely that's true. However keep in mind that Stamina is THE PvP and THE Druid stat. Stamina is the only stat being active/useful for a Druid at all times - regardless of forms. Sure, we might have gotten more Str or Int instead, however it is not really the same. Especially since compensating for the lost Stamina is locking you into Bear form and if you shift out to heal or Cat, you lose the benefit once again. We'll have to see how this works in praxis I guess, but meh, having the lowest Stamina of all classes is quite a bad sign.
They significantly buffed stamina and scaling of stamina in bear form in TBC. My level 70 druid on tbc (in only TBC dungeon blues and quest greens) has 14000 Health (with mark/fort only) 13000 Armor and 1500 AP in bear. We were doing a level 64 instance (underbog) for some friends that just got their keys, and our priest kept DCing. I could tank an entire 3 pull of mobs to death without needing a heal. I would get out after pull, heal myself full, then pull the next. Not very efficient, but we kept progressing through our priests frequent disconnects. In caster form in my feral gear I have almost 9k Health, on my warlock (mostly in aq40/tier 2 with a few TBC blue upgrades) I have only 8k Health. I wouldn't be too worried about having issues with stamina.
You know who else told people how much DPS they should be doing merely based on their class? Hitler.
To Lord BEEF:
No offence, these are your forums after all, but I think if anyone else had posted such a mindless comment they would be seeing starts from Kowbell's hammer about now.
With respect to the OP:
Feral AP seems nice, but Im concerned about the idea that druid weapons scale with all melee classess, yet they get by far the most AP gain from stats. I was of the understanding that the whole point of having the best AP scaling was to offest the lack of weapon dps upgrades. It also needs tobe better itemized, with small amounts on many weapons rather than huge amounts on 1/2 weapons.
With resepct to the Off-Topic.
I find it a bit disingeuous that blizzard are moving druids closer to a "Spec for a job, gear for a job, do that job" model of "hybrid" gameplay. By that I mean that druids are starting to look less like hybrids and more like a class that invests all its talents and gear into trying to be another class; the advantage being you can go respec/regear alot faster than you could reroll.
I dislike the idea that we should devolve class identities into roles and simply have Tank, Melee dps, Ranged DPS, Healing. Alot of people seem to be arguing in favour of this but in my opinion it will only lead to greater discontent in a playerbase. To keep my thoughts simple, the majority of people like to be told what to do, because it gives them a sense of identity.
"I rolled a warrior to tank"
"I rolled a rogue to dps"
"I rolled a druid to heal"
When people get their identitiy confused, you get discontent:
"I rolled my druid to deal ranged dps, what the hell why am I so broken ??"
The idea that all classess can do everything, and we should break down the association of classess with a particular role will only make this worse because it ignores basic human psychology. People like to put things into classess, and they dislike anything that tries to be in many classess at the same time. Yes there will be a vocal minority who picks a class to do X, and are unhappy they have to do Y instead. But by far the bulk of players currently understand the class-role connections. Unsuprizingly it is those classess with the weakest class-role bonds that have the most complaints: Druids, Paladins, Shamans and to a lesser extent Warriors and Priests.
If Blizzard reinforce the idea that those classess can "do it all" provided they are willing to totally focus themselves into one role they are going to find that, ultimately, the player base rejects this and builds their own class-role associations. And that will then lead to a new generation of "My guild wont let me do XYZ on my hybrid"; or people who consider hybrid to mean "Shadow priests have shadow form so people dont ask me to waste mana on healing".
You know who else told people how much DPS they should be doing merely based on their class? Hitler.
No offence, these are your forums after all, but I think if anyone else had posted such a mindless comment they would be seeing starts from Kowbell's hammer about now.
There is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically "lost" whatever debate was in progress
There is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically "lost" whatever debate was in progress
Fine, the Druids lost. Does it matter? No, it's purpose was to stop the discussion from derailing even more. So let's not get this topic locked please, ok?
But is it a derail ?
You cant talk about druid dps and dps scaling in a vacuum.
In an MMO everything is relative, until you decide what %age of a pure class a druid should be able to emulate you cant define how well the druid class should scale/dps be itemized for.
e.g
If you argue that druids should get the same scaling as rogues and the same dps increase from weapons as rogues, you are arguing (indirectly) that druids should very closely approach the dps of rogues. While if you argue that they should scale much less well, youa re implictly arguing that the should not closely match rogues.
The same applies to healing, tanking, and moonkin.
There are not "Pure" healing or tanking classess which muddies the water further, but the principle is sound. Any definition of how well any aspect of the druid class scales MUST be relative to other classess or it is meaningless.
And further, until you have defined an objective, there is no way to clearly define how you should go about achieving that objective.
To whit:
We cant objectively measure how good or bad FAP is as a stat unless we understand what it is trying to achieve in terms of the scaling of druid melee dps relative to other classess. The problem may not be the itemization, but the goal the Devs are working towards.
Don't believe everything you read on wiki ;) Godwin's Law has derailed many a thread but really not killed off too many. Well, at least that's been my perspective from many boards that love to Godwin up threads, although more often as a joke and small nod to the tradition than anything else.
I for one am glad I read a relatively uninteresting (relatively, as in to me not that relevant) thread just to see that classic one-liner. Kudos BEEF.
Well, that is already true without adding a handicap via items. Like I said on the Druids discussion thread: If a Resto/Balance Druid is tanking instead of a Feral Druid in the same gear, they are out of luck twice: First because they lack the talents. Second because they gain less stats from items, especially Stamina. The FAP issue and the low Stamina all hint at Blizz including talents into their calculation, so if they want to give a tanking Druid a chest piece with 600 HP, they will slap 50 Stamina on it and let HotW do it's work. HotW is not a mere bonus or safety cushion: it has become a necessity (which in itself is not too bad but it hinders non-Feral Druids to tank alot more than it does in live where only the talents are different).
If Blizzard is being consistent, all Resto gear will have slightly reduced Spirit because of, you guessed, Living Spirit.
So unless Blizz is going to design Plate tanking items for Warriors with 5% less Stamina (Who really thinks they will? I don't.), Druids shapeshifting/hybriding roles are being diminished greatly. But hey, if that means we get closer to the power of specialist classes, I don't mind - but my pessimistic side tells me we won't so this is just an extra nerf. :(
Wow. I never thought of it like that; this is a huge issue if this is how it will turn out to be.
The Washington Post helps perpetuate a common and pernicious misreading of the decision, referring to "the Supreme Court’s judgment that corporations have the same rights as people when it comes to political speech." What the Supreme Court actually said is that people do not lose their free speech rights when they organize as corporations, including nonprofit interest groups as well as businesses.
I was fine with the post and the banning. Lady Vex was trolling the thread. I found Beef's post quite humorous.
Judia, the issue with druids compared to shamans, priests and paladins is that they are a specialization hybrid. They can only do one thing at a time really, unless that is ranged dps and heal. A shadow priest in +600 spell dmg and mana regen gear will be a pretty decent healer. But being a melee/healing split who is so talent focused means a druid ends up doing one thing in a fight, because they suck at whatever their secondary role is. It seems your complaint comes down to this. If you're a healing class, then you better be expected to heal. But with the new shadow priests and possible better feral talents and such it doesn't look like that will be the case anymore. Some hybrids won't be doing healing as their main role anymore, although I suspect any good player will heal if he or she is asked to, or needed to for the raid to progress.
But we've seen with specialization that having classes that are 70% of 3-4 classes does not work. Unless they are bringing something vital to the table that can't be replaced then they will be left behind in lieu of pure classes. Paladins and Shamans both have great stacking group buffs and raid buffs that you just can't do without. You want at least 2 of each, if not 3 pallies. Innervate and battle rez while good, are not as powerful, since innervates can be replaced with consumable usage and battle rez is a buffer against screwing up more than anything.
11/27/06, 9:22 PM
Similar Threads
