I got a bit of a shock last night. A friend came over to my place, having played a warlock in end game raiding, but never a melee class. He was interested in playing my rogue for the night, and my guild said that'd be fine (we cleared it with the guild ahead of time), so we tried it. Also, he'd never played a rogue in non-end game WoW either, so it's not like he was used to instancing or killing at all with rogue abilities.
After some initial advice, i didnt say a single thing about what to do or when through the course of the night. Here's what I told him in an email:
basic run down of what to do on trash and bosses:
general philosophy:
my personal guideline is you need 2 debuffs (and salv!) to start attacking safely. Any combination of a sunder and thunderfury debuff means you're good to go. So, 2 sunders or thundefury + sunder = gogogo.
you will build combo points using sinister strike, and use them on slice and dice first, and eviscerate with any left over points while snd is active. Use instant poisons on your weapons.
trash:
- if you're at 25% health or less, back out
- dont hesitate to use vanish or evasion if you get aggro
bosses and your health:
-manage health on boss by boss basis. Anub, stay at full life cause of impales. Faerlina, run out of fire. Maexenna, dont even look at your health except if you want to healthstone. Razuvious, health doesnt matter, same for patchwerk, same for grobbulus (sorta), same for gluth. For noth, bandage if necessary.
trash and bosses:
-always be behind a mob when possible - your attacks will not be subject to the 5.6% parry and 5.6% dodge mitigation
- vanish if you get aggro, i should have plenty of flash powder
- sinister strike once then use slice and dice then work up to...
- you want to be using 5 cp SnD so that it's always up. any free combo points go twoards eviscerate. usually you can do a 5 pt SnD then a 5 pt Evisc, rinse, repeat.
On boss after boss, trash pulls included, his spot on the dmg meters was pretty much identical to where I'd be if i were playing my own character. 7th place overall dps for the night. 3rd place patchwerk (i'm usually 2nd to 5th depending on ignites, warriors, which rogues are online).
again, he'd never played any melee class in a raid before, much less a rogue. While it's cool for my friend, being able to do that, at the same time it's pretty damn disheartening to know that given a script like the one above, which has some obvious deviations from corner cases of raiding best practices (when deadly, rupture, etc is ok, when to use blade flurry and AR, etc), the end result is the same.
23 months so far playing my rogue, and another person can do just as well after 5 minutes of instruction.
Either he's very gifted as a player, or i'm very bad, and all the other players in my guild are very bad (we're working on sapph now, so i dont believe that's the case), or the skill it takes to play a raiding rogue is close to 0, at least for:
(i took over after that for faerlina, maex, and noth).
Maybe on gothik he wouldnt have known how to manage his cooldowns quite so well as a long time rogue. Other than that though, ... /sigh.
I cant really imagine that healing classes would be similarly easy to step in and play without some serious familiarization time. Same with tanking. Are rogues really that easy mode?
I'm pretty sure lately people have just been making threads to increase their post count.
Edit: Since it wasn't clear, my point was that this thread is nothing more than a whine about how your friend can do as well as you did. With insightful observations as "Class ____ is easy to pick up in raid dps with a page guide" I'm surprised it wasn't reported more than it already was. You even used the phrase "are rogues really easy mode?".
Just acknowledge that your buddy is a smart player and leave it at that. Even with the script (which is a pretty good rogue primer), he adapted quickly and intelligently which says more than class identity.
I've been playing a raiding rogue for 1.5 years now, and in doing so I think I can honestly say that I mastered the skill it takes to play a rogue in a raid enviorment about halfway through MC.
DPS classes in most MMO's have always been easier to play than healer/tank or support classes. And givin wow's oversimplification of the whole aspect of MMO's it only seems natural that playing a raiding rogue is extremly easy.
I like to think that if/when I top out the meters on various boss fights it's because I know certain nuiancess of the rogue class that others don't. Or because my energy/CP cycle is more effecient than the next guys..but alas the truth of the matter is simply
a, gear
b, lucky crits
c, staying alive
or (most important)
d, actually paying attention the entire boss fight.
The fault isn't ours and in fact I believe that some of the smartest raiders play rogues, but i think our options are limited. So limited in fact that somone who hasn't played a rogue (as in your case) can pickup and master the class in just a few hours.
I mean really, when you think about it. We have 2 main abilities in raids SS and backstab. And our entire purpose revolves around how best to make use of those 2 abilities while adding small dps boosters such as SnD/evis/rupture. Meanwhile having cooldowns such as AR/BF that boost our 2 main abilties for a fraction of a minute. In the grand scheme of things..thats it..thats all a rogue (besides keeping him/herself alive of course) has to do in order to be effective in a raid :/
I'm pretty sure lately people have just been making threads to increase their post count.
you have 8 pages of post in your profile's "show all users posts" (compared to my 3 pages), respond with a 0 value and combative post of your own, in answer to my post which included background facts and a question to other end-game players, about the skill or lack thereof necessary to play wow at the high end of the game, which i think is a fairly interesting topic.
Are you implying that I, or anyone else for that matter, wouldn't be able to hop on a mage (or warlock for that matter) and put up similar numbers as the original player? Tell me when its most efficient to fireball and scorch and I guarantee I'll be up there with the rest of the mages. The raiding game isn't about individual skill for the most part, its about organization and having everyone understand the fight and their role in the fight. And if you've done the fights with one class, you probably know exactly what goes on and you're fully prepared for everything.
I wouldn't base someone's "skill" on the dps they do, mainly because the biggest factor there is gear. Sure some people do bad for their gear, but thats nothing that a simple "use SnD more often" or "don't SnD while your previous one is still up" can't fix. If I had to rate people on skill, the ones on the top would almost always be based on consistency and alertness. How often do you forget to shadow pot on loatheb and die at 40%? How often do you get rammed by blizzard on Sapphiron? How many attempts does it take you to learn the 4h rotation, to learn to stay away from voids? There's always those few people that never seem to fuck up, and I guarantee those few people (if they're dps classes) don't lag behind in dps. Its all about paying attention and wanting to excel. There isn't too much that can't be picked up in this game, especially when it comes to raiding.
Note: Most of my comments do not apply to healers, because I do think there's significant skill involved in topping the effective healing meters.
To be honest, it doesn't take a whole lot of skill to do well on the damage charts as a rogue. It just requires someone who is alert, always has a target, and who keeps SnD and poisons up all the time. The role is extremely simple in most every case. Some fights take a bit more experience than others, but for the most part, we just mash a couple of buttons over and over until the mob dies.
Need a Mumble server? I run MMO-Mumble for all your voice chat needs. | My rogue planning tool: Shadowcraft
Are you implying that I, or anyone else for that matter, wouldn't be able to hop on a mage (or warlock for that matter) and put up similar numbers as the original player? Tell me when its most efficient to fireball and scorch and I guarantee I'll be up there with the rest of the mages. The raiding game isn't about individual skill for the most part, its about organization and having everyone understand the fight and their role in the fight. And if you've done the fights with one class, you probably know exactly what goes on and you're fully prepared for everything.
I snipped the rest, but I agree completely. In my experience, there's no such thing as a "good rogue" or a "good mage" or a "good" member of any class. There are only good players, and these are people who can generally "figure out" any class with a little time and practice. In my guild, we had an excellent rogue decide to switch to a priest, and an excellent priest decide to switch to a rogue. After a brief re-gearing period, we had... an excellent rogue and an excellent priest.
Originally Posted by Nurru
I'm pretty sure lately people have just been making threads to increase their post count.
Coming from you, that's the very definition of irony.
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
I'm sure I could instruct an intelligent person (with rudimentary WoW experience) to play my Mage for Patchwerk without much trouble at all.
Really, it does come back to the old platitude, "nothing in this game is actually hard." The only hard parts are collecting the fight information, and knowing how to interpret it as far as playstyle. You gave you friend detailed, specific, and accurate instructions. So long as he's capable enough to follow them, what's the problem?
Most people who are "bad" are just suffering from incorrect or incomplete information (or stubbornness). Few of them would have serious trouble if they were instructed well and willing to listen.
Are you implying that I, or anyone else for that matter, wouldn't be able to hop on a mage (or warlock for that matter) and put up similar numbers as the original player? Tell me when its most efficient to fireball and scorch and I guarantee I'll be up there with the rest of the mages. The raiding game isn't about individual skill for the most part, its about organization and having everyone understand the fight and their role in the fight. And if you've done the fights with one class, you probably know exactly what goes on and you're fully prepared for everything.
I think that Ghostz' post above and the OP both speak more to the restricted ability set involved in traditional raiding roles than to anything about Rogues in specific. I've switched with my roommate (Warrior) plenty of times mid-instance and he does fine given the 6 or 7 heals on my bar and Theorycraft to tell him how much they'll heal for. At the same time, though, it would be ugly to see him try to take a PUG through a 5-man on my Priest, handling pulls with Shackle/Mind Control/Mind Soothe, juggling aggro around with fear/Fade, and keeping the group up while maintaining mana so there's no downtime. I'm sure your friend would flounder if you had dropped him into a PvP situation and asked him to win a 2v1.
This isn't a 'raiding is easy' post - but the hard part of raiding isn't in the individual task, once all the strategic work and preparation prerequisites have been handled.
I think this is true of alot of class's in end game raiding. The 'skill' as it were is getting 40 people who have a clue and also having a clue about each fight yourself.
Understanding fights / trash is pretty similar for most class's especially if you are going from dps to dps. Of course there are little quirks and tricks with all class's that give you that extra 10% but as has alredy been said, anyone with average+ intelligence and raiding experience could switch pretty easily.
I myself have been swapping with a warlock every so often and Its really not much of a difference going from 1 dps class to another.
It really comes down to understanding game mechanics.
If you understand game mechanics you can deduce simply by looking at the descriptions of abilities, what is good. Also as I assume most of us here also know every classes role per given a raid encounter, since I am a guild leader, I do know this. Anyone who understands game mechanics and is aware of every classes roll on raiding encounters can take over any class and do fine. Some classes are harder than others (healing) because it takes actual play experience to get a feel for the timing of heals, but other than that shit is predictable and constant as ever.
Just echoing what a lot of other people are saying:
Proactive classes (DPS classes mostly) are really easy to pick up even without any experience, as long as you:
1) already know the encounter
2) have a good grasp of game mechanics
3) are not a complete dumbass of a player
Reactive classes (healers) have a bit more of a "acquaintance curve" associated with them (I shy away from calling it a learning curve, since it's more just getting used to the healing thing rather than actually learning anything ground breaking), but otherwise, they follow the aforementioned 3 aspects.
If you have a good player, who can learn and internalize the encounters, and who has a firm grasp of game mechanics, chances are they'll be a good player no matter what class you stick in front of them. We've definitely found the same to be true of our rerolls, in that good players who rerolled different classes are still good in their new classes, while bad players are, for the most part, still bad.
Wow, this got reported by a lot of people. I'm going to reopen this to add my two cents.
In virtually any standard role in WoW 40-man raiding, very little skill is required from the individual player. The challenge is in the teamwork and execution of a larger strategy, and in some fights, in managing multiple "easy" tasks at once in the face of various distractions. Hitting PoH periodically is easy. Hitting PoH while dodging a Blizzard somewhat less so. Hitting PoH while dodging a Blizzard while keeping your group in range further so. Hitting PoH while dodging a Blizzard while keeping your group in range while staying spread out while remaining alert about nearby ice blocks so that Sapphiron's breath doesn't kill you? Still fairly straightforward, but that takes a bit of practice. When you just focus on damage, you're focusing on one small piece of the puzzle. And the fights you listed are all pretty straightforward in that regard. Except for running out on Anub and dodging RoF on Faerlina, which he's done on his normal character, it's really just a matter of standing there and stabbing things.
There are some exceptions to this rule, like frost nova'ing DKs on Gothik or kiting on Gluth, where you have very little margin for error and the learning curve is steeper, and raw skill becomes more apparent.
DPS is largely about paying attention. That's all. Your friend was focused because he didn't want to screw up, he wanted to see how well he could do, and maybe he wanted to prove something. Random Rogue X who's running the zone for the 20th time and has long since worn out the print on his backstab key may not be that involved or attentive on the 20th trash pull of the night, or even on many of the bosses. So much of "skill" in raiding is simply a matter of paying attention.
I would also propose that skill is more to do with the types of judgement calls, and the frequency thereof, you have to make on any given encounter.
Tanking a Garr is completely trivial vs. Tanking Nef without fearward, or Anub/Emps where you have to move your ass fast at the right time. Fluid positioning.
Nuking 1 raid boss as a caster is mainly mashing a limited set of buttons. Skill is much more evident when you have to be switching nuking multiple targets to stop the raid being overwhelmed, eg. Nef Phase 1, Noth. To a large degree thats why Razorgore was such a tough challenge when BWL came out, (excusing the lag/bugginess/tuning), its a different paradigm
Your basic heal rotation is just spamming, some Patchwerk strats are just chain casting one spell for 6 mins, anyone can do that, but on fights where you have to heal the tank, yourself, your group, and be efficient about mana, you are suddenly doing a lot more.
I know I could play a rogue on a stationery fight with a script like that and do well, the key is there weren't a lot of judgement calls for him to make, and on average DPS classes probably have to make fewer than healers. Could I perform on a fight like Gothik with those instructions? Definately not in the league of someone with months of experience, assuming they were any good to begin with.
I have to say I agree with most of what's presented here, the basic points of playing a Rogue; Building CP and Expending it is very simple, the maths was done a long time ago, and most people will do that same thing for the same result.
The more involved part comes from:
Gear selection - Not hard, but not everyone's willing to even take the time to download a spreadsheet and run through what their options look like.
Judgement Calls - The killer point, yes you 'may' be able to do decent DPS on a static fight like Patchwerk, but on a fight like Gothik do you understand where you're needed most, when to stun etc..
DPS is easily quantifiable, and it's easy to fall into the trap of judging a player based entirely on their performance, but when it comes down to one player having worse gear than another, this takes a lot of that analytical validity away.
I've played a healer in Raids, it's not all that hard, by Click casting I was able to heal BWL, top the meters and watch TV all at the same time. That's not to say that I don't apply attention as needed, but that every class can be broken down in similar fashion, we've had tanks set themselves to start attacking Garr then just afk since they'll have solid aggro by the time the raid gets there anyway. Each class has their simplistic aspects, it's the choices that you make in the new and hard encounters that matter as to whether you're a good player, not following a script for a static encounter where the only variable for a Rogue is where Patchwerk's back is facing.
gurg basicaly laid it down exactly like I see it. This game requires next to no skill at all. Most of what you accomplish is from motivation and teamwork.
one important factor I didn't see people mention here that comes up often between "good" and "bad" players is often just as simple as their connection and their hardware. Otherwise I definitely agree with most of what's been said here. This game is easy on the individual level, the challenge is in making it all come togather to beat a raid encounter.
So much of "skill" in raiding is simply a matter of paying attention.
threaten someone with their raid spot and you could all but gaurentee a jump in their dps. why? cause for the first time in a long time they will have payed attention.
A lot of skills across classes are transferrable. All classes will learn early on about optimal cooldown popping in a fight, whether it's with a ZHC or Adrenaline Rush. All classes learn to Heigan dance in the same way. All classes will have a basic idea of threat mechanics.
I've always felt that the first 10% of the effort you put in will net 95% of the DPS you'll ever do. The next 90% of effort is what gets that last 5%.
11/15/06, 12:42 PM
in EJBSG 17 (soundtrack)
Similar Threads
