Backstab: Two Rolls? - Page 2

• sp00n · 11/17/06, 7:39 AM

PvP tests have been done. In fact, the very thing which caused me to go into this entire study was a screenshot posted on the official forums of 15 Backstabs performed on a rogue in those exact conditions, with 2 crits and 13 hits.

Playes can't dodge from behind.

• Vulajin · 11/17/06, 7:41 AM

Originally Posted by sp00n

PvP tests have been done. In fact, the very thing which caused me to go into this entire study was a screenshot posted on the official forums of 15 Backstabs performed on a rogue in those exact conditions, with 2 crits and 13 hits.

Playes can't dodge from behind.

...they certainly can't. Which makes me unsure, in retrospect, what I saw in that screenshot. I'll try and see if I can dig it up. If I can find it, I'll edit a link into this post.

(edit) Found it, and my apologies for horribly misrepresenting the information contained within. Here's the screenshot:

http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...atomicroll.jpg

75 Sinister Strikes performed on a rogue under the following conditions:

The rogue I was duelling had 24% dodge and 10% parry. With evasion on, that was 74% dodge and 10% parry. If SS used a one-roll system, my hit table would have looked like this:

Miss: 0%
Dodge: 74%
Parry: 10%
Crit: 16%
Hit: 0%
Total: 100%

However, the fact that I hit him with SSes (and not just once as a fluke, but almost every time) instead of critting proves that it's not a one-roll system, and that it's probably more like this:

Miss: 0%
Dodge: 74%
Parry: 10%
Crit: 4.20% (16% * 26.28%)
Hit: 11.80% (16% * (100% - 26.28%))
Total: 100%

This was the information which initially caused me to conduct this analysis and make this post.

Brump · 11/21/06, 1:18 PM

Wouldn't the fact that with >115% backstab crit rate I still get dodges on Loatheb with spore buff prove a 2 roll system..unless I am missing something..?

pf · 11/21/06, 1:28 PM

Originally Posted by Brump

Wouldn't the fact that with >115% backstab crit rate I still get dodges on Loatheb with spore buff prove a 2 roll system..unless I am missing something..?

no, mitigation takes precedence no matter what. Just as a warrior who hits recklessness will still have dodges/glances.

mylek · 11/21/06, 3:04 PM

What about the data for the unknown rogue's white attacks during the same test?

My understanding is that observed white crit rate in rogue duels is substantially higher than the character sheet crit rate and one of the origins of a one roll theory.

Glaurong · 11/21/06, 3:43 PM

This post is the basis of the one roll theory

http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread....14551513&sid=1

motive has shared some details on the calculations of hit and crit chances:

part 1

The way WoW calculates crit rate is over ALL attacks. Crit rate is not based on hits only. In other words, if you have a 5% crit rate, that 5% chance includes misses.

All crit rate adjusting abilities, items, and talents add the flat % to the base % crit rate. So if I have a 5% base crit rate and then use an item or talent that increases that crit rate (let's use Improved Backstab talent for example - +30% crit), my new crit with backstab is 35%.

Regarding how defense decreases the rate of critical strikes, each point of defense that a target has over the attacker, the attacker loses 0.04% chance to crit. So, for example, if a level 60 Rogue is attacking a level 60 Warrior who has 25 defense, the rogue's crit rate will be decreased by 1%.

part 2

+toHit items subtract from your miss%.

So, ignoring all defensive actions (Block/Parry/Dodge/etc..) if I have 20% crit chance, 20% miss chance, and 60% hit chance and I equip an item that gives me +5% toHit and +5% crit, my stats become 25% crit, 15% miss chance, 60% hit chance.

New hit chance = (Original hit%) + (toHit modifiers) - (crit modifiers)
60% + 5% - 5% = 60%

New crit chance = (Original crit%) + (crit modifiers)
20% + 5% = 25%

New miss chance - (Original miss%) - (toHit modifiers)
20% - 5% = 15%

Mimesis · 11/21/06, 3:54 PM

ive always had my own little theory. And it is such. When a person does an attack, it follows the previous posters one roll model and determines if the attack will hit miss or crit. Another roll is done whenever you recieve an attack, whether its a hit or a crit, and your dodge and parry are then applied. So instead of the server collecting data from the two entities simultaneously and doing the calculation, it does it on a per entity basis. This of course is mearly a 'guess.'

Glaurong · 11/21/06, 4:05 PM

I'm trying to work out the details but I might as well mention it now, get early opinions.

The results don't necessarily reflect a 2 roll system. They could also reflect tables being constructed in a different order if what I've worked out so far is right.

If this is the case it could be intended or simply an oversight in the code that constructs attack tables for specials.

• Vulajin · 11/21/06, 4:35 PM

Originally Posted by Glaurong

I'm trying to work out the details but I might as well mention it now, get early opinions.

The results don't necessarily reflect a 2 roll system. They could also reflect tables being constructed in a different order if what I've worked out so far is right.

If this is the case it could be intended or simply an oversight in the code that constructs attack tables for specials.

I considered the idea of the tables being constructed in a different order, but what could that different order be? The only thing that could result in crit being eaten is hit taking precedence, and that would introduce a whole host of complications that, frankly, I don't wish to consider.

malic · 11/21/06, 4:49 PM

Hm. I happen to have a Felstriker I use occaisionally. Here's some things for you to consider about the combat system. :p
Honestly, I'm considering dragging myself out to uldaman with the felstriker and pounding Olaf a few times just to test something.

10/23 00:10:56.301 You hit Chromaggus for 97. (glancing)
10/23 00:10:56.597 You gain Felstriker.
10/23 00:10:57.517 You crit Chromaggus for 672.
10/23 00:10:57.891 Your Heroic Strike crits Chromaggus for 821.
10/23 00:10:58.000 You hit Chromaggus for 89. (glancing)
10/23 00:10:59.168 You crit Chromaggus for 249.
10/23 00:10:59.262 Felstriker fades from you.

[top]
10/23 00:33:51.831 You crit Chromaggus for 227.
10/23 00:33:51.847 You gain Felstriker.
10/23 00:33:52.907 You crit Chromaggus for 562.
10/23 00:33:53.359 You crit Chromaggus for 253.
10/23 00:33:54.481 You crit Chromaggus for 303.
10/23 00:33:54.606 You attack. Chromaggus dodges.
10/23 00:33:55.167 Felstriker fades from you.

10/23 00:34:51.853 You hit Chromaggus for 139.
10/23 00:34:51.869 You gain Felstriker.
10/23 00:34:51.900 You hit Chromaggus for 282. (glancing)
10/23 00:34:52.913 Your Bloodthirst crits Chromaggus for 1080.
10/23 00:34:53.474 You crit Chromaggus for 239.
10/23 00:34:54.222 You crit Chromaggus for 587.
10/23 00:34:54.736 You attack. Chromaggus dodges.
10/23 00:34:55.001 Felstriker fades from you.
====
10/23 00:36:37.729 You crit Chromaggus for 627.
10/23 00:36:37.931 You gain Felstriker.
10/23 00:36:39.240 You crit Chromaggus for 262.
10/23 00:36:39.989 Your Heroic Strike crits Chromaggus for 911.
10/23 00:36:40.004 Your Bloodthirst crits Chromaggus for 1123.
10/23 00:36:40.612 You hit Chromaggus for 124. (glancing)
10/23 00:36:40.721 Felstriker fades from you.

Taikero · 11/21/06, 5:13 PM

Just a little something to throw into the discussion here.....

You need 9% +hit to not miss on level 63 bosses. The 6% +hit requirement is only valid for level 63 mobs.

Also, you shouldn't have missed that many Backstabs with 11% +hit gear.....Actually, you should've technically missed none. I can only guess Kurinaxx as the culprit.

As for Backstab being on a 2 roll system.....I'm skeptical.

Qrmu · 11/21/06, 5:17 PM

Originally Posted by Althor

If special melee attacks are on a two roll system this might also imply that spells for casters are in fact on a two roll system as well (as that's basically what special melee attacks are).

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...10271182&sid=1

A year old blue post about spell hit and resistances, and what I'm seeing is pretty much a two roll system. One roll for hit and another roll for partial resists.

Belenos · 11/21/06, 6:42 PM

Originally Posted by malic

Hm. I happen to have a Felstriker I use occaisionally. Here's some things for you to consider about the combat system. :p
Honestly, I'm considering dragging myself out to uldaman with the felstriker and pounding Olaf a few times just to test something.

...data...

Well, Thottbot lists the effects of the Felstriker buff as:

Apply Aura: Mod Crit Percent
Value: 100

Apply Aura: Mod Hit Chance
Value: 100

So I think that the buff is equivalent to an item that gives you +100% crit and +100% hit. In other words, it would eliminate miss and normal hit from the table. However, avoidance (dodge) and glancing have priority over hit/crit, so they can't be removed from the table by +hit or +crit. And when you get a glance, it is effectively a reduced damage normal hit.

The real problem is the Felstriker tooltip description, which is misleading. +100% hit does not actually mean "All attacks are guaranteed to land," due to things like block and dodge and glancing.

Drakonious · 11/22/06, 12:00 AM

Originally Posted by Taikero

Just a little something to throw into the discussion here.....

You need 9% +hit to not miss on level 63 bosses. The 6% +hit requirement is only valid for level 63 mobs.

Also, you shouldn't have missed that many Backstabs with 11% +hit gear.....Actually, you should've technically missed none. I can only guess Kurinaxx as the culprit.

As for Backstab being on a 2 roll system.....I'm skeptical.

He said he hasn't gotten a chance to test it on Kurinaxx.

• Hamlet · 11/22/06, 9:33 AM

Originally Posted by Nejyn

I can guarantee you there are at least 2 rolls for spells, I've seen partial resists that are also crits many times on Molten Giants. This is easy enough to confirm if you can get into MC and cast some fire spells.

That's because partial resists aren't parallel to dodge/parry/miss, they're parallel to armor mitigation (for resistance-based partials, at least). This says nothing as to whether we have 1 or 2 rolls for hit/crit/miss.

Grubsnik · 11/22/06, 10:44 AM

But it certainly weakens the argument that melee-rolls have to be single-rolls for computing efficiency.

• Vulajin · 11/22/06, 1:15 PM

I went into Stratholme last night with the intention of testing the one-roll/two-roll theory on Baroness Anastari. Unfortunately, I had overestimated the strength of her debuff; it reduces chance to hit only by 31%. Since my miss, dodge, and crit rates didn't add up to 100% or more, there was no basis on which to evaluate the data in favor of either the one-roll theory or the two-roll theory.

The only mob I can think of with the kind of debuff I need to test this is Kurrinaxx. I guess next time I have the opportunity, I'll have to take a dip in one of those sand traps and do some experimentation. :-P

hiro · 11/22/06, 1:53 PM

Have you considered the level 16 or so turtles in the Oasis in the Barrens.

They kick up a mudsling debuff that significanlty increases your miss rate and are easy to find and of negligable level, so you can easily do a great deal of testing (naked so you don't 1 shot them).

hiro · 11/22/06, 1:54 PM

This ability:

http://www.thottbot.com/?sp=3650

It's a 50% increased chance to miss. I'm sure other mobs have the ability also, but those are the ones I'm sure are easy to find. They are in the southern Oasi as far as I can recall.

Also, you can just turn off your attacks and wait until a debuff lands to do testing.

Gouge then Backstab.

----
Actually a little Thott searching later, it seems that ability linked above is prolly from higher level turtles.

This 40% miss debuff seems the right level for those barrens turtles
http://www.thottbot.com/?sp=6530

Also some other high miss percent debuffs (unknown sources)

Ink Spray - 50%
http://www.thottbot.com/?sp=9612

Dust Cloud - 85% lasts 12 seconds, and is level 6 - check starting zones
http://www.thottbot.com/?sp=26072

Booze Spit - 75% (from Kreeger the Drunk in DM?)
http://www.thottbot.com/?sp=22833

Thezilch · 11/22/06, 3:49 PM

Dust Cloud - 85% lasts 12 seconds, and is level 6 - check starting zones
http://www.thottbot.com/?sp=26072

AQ40 Emps -> C'Thun Anubisath

CD · 11/22/06, 6:25 PM

Originally Posted by hiro

This ability:Ink Spray - 50%
http://www.thottbot.com/?sp=9612

Marsh Inkspewers in SoS use that one.

GrizleyCQ · 11/22/06, 6:27 PM

Originally Posted by Grubsnik

But it certainly weakens the argument that melee-rolls have to be single-rolls for computing efficiency.

On what grounds?

A caster spaming a 2.0 cast time offensive spell in a 2 roll system would generate 2 rolls per 2 seconds. Or 1 roll/sec.

Now imagine a rogue dual wielding 1.3 delay daggers, plus hitting backstab, with slice and dice up. They would be generating something like 3+ rolls/sec.

The volume of attacks that need to be rolled for casting vs melee would make it entirely possible that melee is a single roll vs castings double roll.

pf · 11/22/06, 7:07 PM

Originally Posted by GrizleyCQ

Originally Posted by Grubsnik

But it certainly weakens the argument that melee-rolls have to be single-rolls for computing efficiency.

On what grounds?

A caster spaming a 2.0 cast time offensive spell in a 2 roll system would generate 2 rolls per 2 seconds. Or 1 roll/sec.

Now imagine a rogue dual wielding 1.3 delay daggers, plus hitting backstab, with slice and dice up. They would be generating something like 3+ rolls/sec.

The volume of attacks that need to be rolled for casting vs melee would make it entirely possible that melee is a single roll vs castings double roll.

This is about special melee abilities which for a rogue are at most, 1 every 3 seconds. For a warrior, you could push one a second with infinite rage.

Martyr · 11/22/06, 7:16 PM

Originally Posted by Thezilch

Dust Cloud - 85% lasts 12 seconds, and is level 6 - check starting zones
http://www.thottbot.com/?sp=26072

AQ40 Emps -> C'Thun Anubisath

The centaur in durotar, in a ravine south west of the troll capital.

From memory, Mudsnot gnolls in hillsbrad also have a -hit debuff, 50% iirc.

Beyond that, I don't see the problem with my proposed method of testing (page 1). Testing it with ambush eliminates dodge/parry/block from the equation so you're only working with miss crit and hit. Sure it may take longer, but you can perform tests on any mob. All you need is one hit to land with 5% miss and 96% crit and you've put a serious dent in the 1-roll special moves theory.

pf · 11/22/06, 8:21 PM

11/22 18:20:04.265 You are afflicted by Ink Spray.
11/22 18:20:05.390 Marsh Inkspewer hits you for 42.
11/22 18:20:07.921 Marsh Inkspewer is afflicted by Blind.
11/22 18:20:10.843 Your Backstab missed Marsh Inkspewer.
11/22 18:20:10.875 You crit Marsh Inkspewer for 275.
11/22 18:20:10.937 You fail to perform Backstab: Not yet recovered.
11/22 18:20:11.062 Marsh Inkspewer crits you for 110.
11/22 18:20:11.140 You fail to perform Backstab: Not yet recovered.
11/22 18:20:11.234 Your Invigorate heals you for 93.
11/22 18:20:13.015 Marsh Inkspewer hits you for 55.
11/22 18:20:14.359 You gain Sprint.
11/22 18:20:14.812 You crit Marsh Inkspewer for 210.
11/22 18:20:14.875 You miss Marsh Inkspewer.
11/22 18:20:14.906 You fail to perform Backstab: Not yet recovered.
11/22 18:20:14.937 Marsh Inkspewer hits you for 44.
11/22 18:20:15.015 Your Backstab hits Marsh Inkspewer for 445.
11/22 18:20:15.109 You fail to perform Backstab: Not yet recovered.
11/22 18:20:15.281 You fail to perform Backstab: Not yet recovered.
11/22 18:20:17.125 Marsh Inkspewer hits you for 53.
11/22 18:20:17.609 Marsh Inkspewer hits you for 51.
11/22 18:20:18.281 You miss Marsh Inkspewer.
11/22 18:20:18.687 You crit Marsh Inkspewer for 314.
11/22 18:20:19.156 Ink Spray fades from you.

http://www.thottbot.com/?sp=9612 -50% hit as linked earlier

This pretty much solidifies the point for me. Special attacks use a two roll system, whereas regular (white) melee attacks use a single roll system.

edit: base melee critrate was over 30%.