It's funny that paladins already started fighting over the prot tree. Why couldnt you check how warriors felt in the past 2 years about their owp protection spec before this?
If you want to be able to heal, tank, and dps at the same time; they will all be in a lower performance; and also it will come a lot later since you have to spend 3 times as much dkp.
^^
Worthless post right there.
Edit. So I dont make an equally useless post
Paladin Prot tree was fine before 1.9, relative to the other two trees.
During the paladin review is was decimated, to the point where at the last unofficial paladin census less than 5% of all paladins had more than 11 points in protection. Yes there were a few die-hard Reck-bombers, but the tree was far more useless than the warrior protection tree. The warrior protection tree is a country mile better than the paladin protection tree on live, so please keep your whines in perspective.
I have a question for coefficient specialists, is therz a softspot on SoR that makes it better on certain speds compared to others? From what I understand, it's based on weapon speed, your level(the range goes up as you level until next rank) and spell damage, but is it purely linear?
Also anyone know if SoR with a 2hander scales decently or not, I found myself tanking most of the trash on my warrior with a 2hander anyway because it would only make things go faster, and help with threat generation when you weren't getting hit for a lot, I'm not sure if blizzard are changing their way to design trash since 5mans are poor examples, but I'd be interested in knowing if you can hold aggro as good as a warrior when it comes to 2h tanking. Oh and before you diss 2h tanking, yes I meant AQ/naxx trash, not zg/mc(which I did also)
Well there is a very good chance that seal of righteousness works the same way as flametongue. +10% of spell damage per hit, regardless of weapon speed.
Why not just use seal of command if tanking with a twohander?
On live the best way to tank with SoR is to use the fastest possible weapon as that will scale the best with +spelldamage.
Currently all SoR procs get the same bonus frmo +spell damage irrespective of weapon speed.
It's funny that paladins already started fighting over the prot tree. Why couldnt you check how warriors felt in the past 2 years about their owp protection spec before this?
If you want to be able to heal, tank, and dps at the same time; they will all be in a lower performance; and also it will come a lot later since you have to spend 3 times as much dkp.
I have a question for coefficient specialists, is therz a softspot on SoR that makes it better on certain speds compared to others? From what I understand, it's based on weapon speed, your level(the range goes up as you level until next rank) and spell damage, but is it purely linear?
Also anyone know if SoR with a 2hander scales decently or not, I found myself tanking most of the trash on my warrior with a 2hander anyway because it would only make things go faster, and help with threat generation when you weren't getting hit for a lot, I'm not sure if blizzard are changing their way to design trash since 5mans are poor examples, but I'd be interested in knowing if you can hold aggro as good as a warrior when it comes to 2h tanking. Oh and before you diss 2h tanking, yes I meant AQ/naxx trash, not zg/mc(which I did also)
On live, as Judia says, SoR gets 10% of spell damage for 1 handers, and I think 12% for 2 handers. On beta, it's the same coeffiecients, but per 1.0 weapon speed, (i.e. I get 21% with my 2.1 speed). Anyway, the difference between prot paladin damage with a 1-hander and with 2-hander isn't the same as it would be for a warrior; you're missing out on holy shield damage and the resulting huge chunk of aggro, and most of your damage is spell damage anyway.
Here's the level 60 SoR formula WoWiki lists for those interested:
1hander: 22 + (2 * (WeaponSpeed*10) - 30) = Damage per hit
2hander: 33 + (2.3 * (WeaponSpeed*10) - 34.5) = Damage per hit
That's pre-spell damage of course. Anyone have the numbers for level 70?
I have a question for coefficient specialists, is therz a softspot on SoR that makes it better on certain speds compared to others? From what I understand, it's based on weapon speed, your level(the range goes up as you level until next rank) and spell damage, but is it purely linear?
SoR gets 9.2% of your spell per second per hit for 1H and 10.8% for 2H (so the coefficient for 2.5 speed 1H would be 9.2 * 2.5 = 23%; 2H figure MAY have changed in the last patch, but I haven't tested it out yet). It's purely linear.
Originally Posted by Pyros
Also anyone know if SoR with a 2hander scales decently or not, I found myself tanking most of the trash on my warrior with a 2hander anyway because it would only make things go faster, and help with threat generation when you weren't getting hit for a lot, I'm not sure if blizzard are changing their way to design trash since 5mans are poor examples, but I'd be interested in knowing if you can hold aggro as good as a warrior when it comes to 2h tanking. Oh and before you diss 2h tanking, yes I meant AQ/naxx trash, not zg/mc(which I did also)
Prot Paladins would do less damage and generate less threat with a 2H. You lose the ability to use Redoubt, Blessing of Sanctuary, and Holy Shield without a Shield, and you'd only gain very small amounts of white damage and probably lose a bit of Holy damage if you have 1H spec. I guess you could if you really wanted to, but why would you want to?
I really think LG's best usage will be in PvP, so if you want to be a healbot with it, I'd really be hesitant about dropping it. Paladin healing issues in PvP have always been a lack of burst healing and vulnerability to counterspelling. This talent eliminates one of those at least. You can still get plenty of survival prot talents and LG at the same time.
Also anyone know if SoR with a 2hander scales decently or not, I found myself tanking most of the trash on my warrior with a 2hander anyway because it would only make things go faster, and help with threat generation when you weren't getting hit for a lot, I'm not sure if blizzard are changing their way to design trash since 5mans are poor examples, but I'd be interested in knowing if you can hold aggro as good as a warrior when it comes to 2h tanking. Oh and before you diss 2h tanking, yes I meant AQ/naxx trash, not zg/mc(which I did also)
Prot Paladins would do less damage and generate less threat with a 2H. You lose the ability to use Redoubt, Blessing of Sanctuary, and Holy Shield without a Shield, and you'd only gain very small amounts of white damage and probably lose a bit of Holy damage if you have 1H spec. I guess you could if you really wanted to, but why would you want to?
Yes I see that now, didn't bother thinking before posting ^^. Makes me wonder what good paladins will be tho, if you can still tank trash without a shield without wasting time, using a dps warrior to do it would just speed it up compared to using a prot paladin, and unless there's very specific conditions in a boss fight like melee immunity or fast moving mobs, I don't think there's really any reason to prefer a prot paladin to main tank over a prot warrior. So I guess you end up just offtanking adds during boss fights, which I'm pretty sure can be done with a holy spec just as efficiently, and you can heal the rest of the time. Will prot be a 5man build only? Atm it does look like it, unless your guild has no prot warrior.
Yes I see that now, didn't bother thinking before posting ^^. Makes me wonder what good paladins will be tho, if you can still tank trash without a shield without wasting time, using a dps warrior to do it would just speed it up compared to using a prot paladin, and unless there's very specific conditions in a boss fight like melee immunity or fast moving mobs,
If it's that trivial, just consecrate + AoE. Trash is the least of my concerns regarding paladin tanking right now.
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
Why wouldn't you have the prot paladin tank, and the dps war dps? That way your enhancement shaman can spend more time dpsing and less time trying to keep up the MT.
Since you say arena, the improved divine shield talent reduces cooldown to 4 from 5 minutes. For this to take effect your fight has to last at least 4 minutes to begin with. If it's lasting that long, it's probably just you and another healer left on the other side, meaning you don't need the bubble.
Edit: actually, I'm only basing this on current experiences, I don't have first hand experience with people wearing stuff like http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=15002. Who knows, maybe 4 minutes is just the right time, but in any case I'd drop blessed life for light's grace, proc talents for the loose.
Since you say arena, the improved divine shield talent reduces cooldown to 4 from 5 minutes. For this to take effect your fight has to last at least 4 minutes to begin with. If it's lasting that long, it's probably just you and another healer left on the other side, meaning you don't need the bubble.
It also restores full attack speed under DS and (as of the latest patch) buffs stamina by 6%. Out of those three effects, the DS cooldown reduction is probably the least significant.
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
Am I the only one who thinks that the choice of who tanks for a particular encounter may have more to do with DPS vs. Healing, and less to do with who is the strictly optimal tank.
Ignoring druids for the moment (since they are more flexible, and thus complicate things more) imagine a boss which does not require a lot of healing, but you want to take down quickly (enrage mechanic, timed waves, anything). You might choose to use a paladin for an MT despite a warrior being a better MT, because you would rather have the warrior DPSing. Imagine another boss which has tons of spike damage, and very little life. Clearly healing is more important in this second encounter, so even a lesser geared warrior would be preferable to losing a healer.
Yes, if you are dedicating a slot to DPS a rogue or a DPS warrior might be better. Likewise for a protection paladin as a healer. But I personally don't believe in swapping in and out to minmax every encounter. The tank is an important role, but sometimes composition is more important than strictly optimal people in each position.
Personally, I don't think there's much of a difference between the DPS of a tank spec warrior and a tank spec paladin. Both are so poor as to be almost irrelevant to the encounter - if DPS really is the deciding factor.
This really is the reason paladins (and druids) have historically been marginalized in tanking roles - prot spec warriors may as well sit out if they're not tanking, while prot spec paladins can still bless, cleanse and heal. The choice between the two may often come down to - paladin tanking = wasted raid slot (the prot war is useless) vs. warrior tanking = sub-optimal raid slot (prot paladin is healing).
Now, if there are encounters which play to the strengths of paladin tank talents, rather than warrior ones, I can see picking the optimal tank based on that. Or as many have suggested, the optimal raid makeup might be 1 short on tanks for a single encounter, so you pop in the paladin to tank something.
Personally, I don't think there's much of a difference between the DPS of a tank spec warrior and a tank spec paladin. Both are so poor as to be almost irrelevant to the encounter - if DPS really is the deciding factor.
Right, but if it's a choice between an Arms/Fury warrior and a Prot paladin, that's a huge difference in dps. I think that's more along the lines of what Galatea was driving at.
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
Personally, I don't think there's much of a difference between the DPS of a tank spec warrior and a tank spec paladin. Both are so poor as to be almost irrelevant to the encounter - if DPS really is the deciding factor.
Right, but if it's a choice between an Arms/Fury warrior and a Prot paladin, that's a huge difference in dps. I think that's more along the lines of what Galatea was driving at.
Yeah I'm pretty sure nobody here is contesting the fact that prot. spec warriors should be the be-all end-all of tanks. It is the comparison of Arms warrior tanks to Prot. Paladins which is really the meat of the issue imo.
Personally, I don't think there's much of a difference between the DPS of a tank spec warrior and a tank spec paladin. Both are so poor as to be almost irrelevant to the encounter - if DPS really is the deciding factor.
Right, but if it's a choice between an Arms/Fury warrior and a Prot paladin, that's a huge difference in dps. I think that's more along the lines of what Galatea was driving at.
To be exact, I was referring to the differense between a prot warrior DPSing, and a prot paladin healing. Both may be poor, but a prot warrior will probably DPS better than a prot paladin, and a prot paladin will definitely heal better than a warrior. So without actually changing the people in your raid, it allows you to modify your effective composition between fights.
So, for completeness sakes the Maximum Mitigation from talents:
Warrior -
...
30% extra block value
Paladin -
...
30% extra block value
Is this one really noticeable? Last I heard, on Live, Shield Specialization applied only to the base block value of the shield, not all the +block value from gear, which has become pretty abundant. Unless that's changed in the expansion beta, it looks to me like Shield Spec for either class will remain signficantly less useful than, say, Anticipation as a place to spend talent points and won't be much of a factor in tank mitigation unless mob damage per hit is extremely low.
On beta at least I get the +30% on top of all my gear. Its actually one of my favourite talents in the warrior tree as it gives you a big damage increase to shield slam as well. You can get your shield block up to a pretty significant amount of damage reduction too, I think I block for 234 right now.
So, for completeness sakes the Maximum Mitigation from talents:
Warrior -
...
30% extra block value
Paladin -
...
30% extra block value
Is this one really noticeable? Last I heard, on Live, Shield Specialization applied only to the base block value of the shield, not all the +block value from gear, which has become pretty abundant.
The Shield Spec bonus applies to everything. It's the very last step in computing shield block value. I tested and verified this well over a year ago. I'd be surprised if the warrior equivalent doesn't work the same way.
Also note that shield block values are getting buffed for 2.0/TBC. Malistar's is up from 52 to 68, if I remember.
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
This is kind of off-topic, but I'm looking at a tank build for 2.0. I'm having trouble deciding between Anticipation and Toughness. Is there any reason to take toughness over anticipation? Here's the math I did-
According to WoWWiki, Defense adds .04% to block, dodge, parry, chance to be missed, and chance to not be crit per point. Anticipation gives you 20 defense. So, it's an .8% chance to dodge, .8% chance to parry, and .8% chance to be missed, meaning you will avoid damage 2.4% of the time. Plus you are getting .8% block and -.8% crit out of the deal.
Toughness gives +10% armor for the same investment. I think I'm somewhere in the neighborhood of 9000 armor. The formula listed says mitigation from armor is changing in this next patch to
%Reduction = (Armor / (Armor - 22168 + 467.5 * Enemy_Level)) * 100
which is a nerf to what we are getting now, btw. Anyway, that's 58.6% DR against a 61 mob. 900 armor raises it to 60.9%, meaning you gain 2.3% additional mitigation from toughness.
Now my "gut instinct" says that toughness seems better, but as far as I can tell, it's definitely not. Is there something I'm not seeing here? (other than that armor reduces "spike" damage).
11/21/06, 4:54 AM
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