Elitist Jerks Comparison between the damage output of different paladin-specs

11/21/06, 6:43 PM   #16
Eej
Soda Popinski

Eej
Troll Hunter

No WoW Account
 Originally Posted by Liand Heh. That's certainly simpler than mine. :) How do you figure out the number of critical hits made per minute though?
Well first you count how many weapon swings you make. Say you have a 3.40 speed weapon:

60 seconds / 3.4 seconds per swing = 17.64 swings

Then you get the PPM of Seal of Command, which is 7 procs.

If you judge Command every 8 seconds, 60/8 = 7.5 judgements.

Crusader Strike every 10 seconds, so 6 strikes.

So autoattack + SoC + CS = 30.64 swings. Assume a 15% crit rate, that's 4.60 crits.

JoC has 30% crit rate with Fanaticism, so 2.25 crits.

4.60 + 2.25 = 6.85 crits a minute.

Mind you, I can't remember off the top of my head whether Crusader Strike can proc Seals or not and whether Windfury Totem can proc Seals or be procced off SoC procs and/or Crusader Strike, so this is just an example of how to find the number of crits per minute, as opposed to a "real" example.

 11/21/06, 7:01 PM #17 Liand Von Kaiser   Liand Dwarf Paladin   Perenolde Ah, sorry. I should've been more clear with my question. I was asking if the formula had any assumptions that'd change the number of critical hits made in a minute in some non-obvious way. I did a quick calculation at 15% melee crit rate as well without factoring in CS, and I came up with 57% uptime (1 - exp(-0.143 * 5.946)), as opposed to 45% from my own formula, so I was wondering what I was missing. Edit: Never mind. Apparently, I can't plug in numbers correctly. :P Mine matches Fiola's.
 11/21/06, 7:24 PM #18 Thethiala Von Kaiser     Thethi Human Paladin   Grim Batol (EU) With a 15% critrate I get an uptime of 58,94% through my calculator, I can't really figure out the cause of the small difference. A good night's worth of sleep might help. :)
11/21/06, 7:47 PM   #19
Fiola
Great Tiger

Skywall
 Originally Posted by Eej Mind you, I can't remember off the top of my head whether Crusader Strike can proc Seals or not and whether Windfury Totem can proc Seals or be procced off SoC procs and/or Crusader Strike, so this is just an example of how to find the number of crits per minute, as opposed to a "real" example.
Last I heard, CS does not proc direct damage seals (SoR/SoC/SoB) on beta. It definitely didn't on the PTR. According to others who have played with it more, it will proc other seals and weapon procs.

Windfury sounds like it will be interesting, as I'm pretty sure SoC can proc it. The question now is whether Windfury can proc anything. (Seals? Normal -> SoC -> Windfury -> SoC?)

 11/21/06, 8:06 PM #20 Aramul Piston Honda   Aramul Human Paladin   Lightbringer I was under the impression that Windfury was no longer considered a melee hit, and thus wouldn't get procs or generate rage.
11/21/06, 8:26 PM   #21
Cathela
Still Bald Bull

Earthen Ring
 Originally Posted by Thethiala With a 15% critrate I get an uptime of 58,94% through my calculator, I can't really figure out the cause of the small difference. A good night's worth of sleep might help. :)
I believe Fiola's formula is going to be slightly inexact since it assumes the crits will be distributed entirely at random throughout each minute of combat, which is not exactly true. For example, fanaticism will tend to make a greater proportion of the crits happen on JoC, and those are always spaced eight seconds apart. However, I expect it would still provide numbers pretty close to reality (e.g., the 2% difference shown here.)

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 11/22/06, 2:35 AM #22 Thethiala Von Kaiser     Thethi Human Paladin   Grim Batol (EU) I've now updated the calculator to incorporate the proper Vengaence-calculations. Next in line is misses and glancing blows.
 11/22/06, 3:08 PM #23 Fiola Great Tiger   Fiola Human Paladin   Skywall Here's the math proof I promised. I'm too lazy to clean it more. And yes, the result is an approximation. With my math, factoring that in was too much bother. (And hey, it's not like you'll notice a 2% difference in a small number. >_> ) VENGEANCE UPTIME: Vengeance boosts physical holy damage output by 15% for 8 seconds after dealing a critical strike. Essentially, it's a function of the number of critical hits over a given time interval. Let's call it Vt(N) [Vengeance Time] *N is the # of critical hits you make per minute Each extra critical hit increases the amount of vengeance time by an amount less than the previous, on average proportional to the % of non-Vengeance time. (Diminishing returns) Vt(0) = 0 Vt(1) = [1 - V(0)/60]*8 + V(0) = 1*8 = 8 Vt(2) = [1 - V(1)/60]*8 + V(1) = 52/60*8 = 8 = 14.93 Vt(3) = [1 - V(2)/60]*8 + V(2) = 45.07/60*8 + 14.93 = 20.94 Assume Vt() is in the form 60(1-e^kn) Vt(0) = 60(1-e^0) = 60(1-1) = 0 Vt(1) = 60(1-e^k) = 8 -> 1-e^k = .133 -> e^k = 0.866 -> k = ln(0.866) = -.143 Vt(2) = 60(1-e^2k) = 14.93 -> 1-e^2k = .2488 -> e^2k = .7512 -> 2k = ln(.7512) = -.286 -> k = -.143 So Vt(N) = 60*(1-e^-.143N) As N approaches infinity, e^kn goes to 0, and Vt() is 60, as it should be. [If you crit every hit, Vengeance should be up 100% of the time] Note that k = -.143 is for N per 60 seconds - you could scale k for a different time interval if you so wished. ie: N critical hits per 30 seconds would have a different value for K. For % uptime, just divide Vt(N) by 60 and multiply by 100%, which yields: Vengeance Uptime: (1 - exp(-.143 * N) * 100%
 11/28/06, 6:49 AM #24 Thethiala Von Kaiser     Thethi Human Paladin   Grim Batol (EU) I'm now done with a major update, and have incorporated proper calculations for glancing blows, hit ratio and Avenging Wrath. (I looked at Deathwing's calculations for help with the glancing blows, if you've got a problem with that then please do tell.) The calculator should now be next to 100% accurate, the only thing that's missing is is Windfury and Hand of Justice, which will be coming in another update together with calculations for Seal of Righteousness-DPS. http://www.savefile.com/files/297044
11/28/06, 10:25 AM   #25
Amera
Jedi Knight

Amera
Night Elf Priest

No WoW Account
 I'm finding that mob grinding is way more efficient with SoR with JotC debuff than SoC. My blood elf is 55 now. There's something messed with JotC mulitplier applied to SoR. My SoR (rank 7) lists as 46 to 63. With a JotC debuff, its hitting for 112 per swing. That's pratically doubled. I'm using Taran Icebreaker which is a 2.30 speed fast weapon. I'm not sure why JotC is increasing SoR so much. By doing so, its making the most effective DPS I've got. SoC just can't come close
There's a lot of this on the beta forums. I think a great deal of it, though, is just gear selection. SoC is not a great damaging seal when you have a 12% crit rate and a one-hander. You have to work fairly hard to get a good crit rate with a paladin while still maintaining anything resembling a decent mana pool (even in TBC), but really that is the bread-and-butter of a SoC ret build. Get your crit to 20-25% and and you'll blow SoR out of the water.

 11/28/06, 10:34 AM #26 Judia Banned   Judia Murloc Paladin   Grim Batol(EU) I havent been through the numbers myself, but Ive seen (but not checked) some numbers that suggest the dps difference between SoR and SoC is small enough to be negligable in anything but warrior gear because of the coefficient on SoR. If that is true it makes SoC a purely pvp talent for burst damage, which is a little disappointing to me.
11/28/06, 11:26 AM   #27
bellator
King Hippo

Twilight's Hammer (EU)
 Originally Posted by Judia I havent been through the numbers myself, but Ive seen (but not checked) some numbers that suggest the dps difference between SoR and SoC is small enough to be negligable in anything but warrior gear because of the coefficient on SoR. If that is true it makes SoC a purely pvp talent for burst damage, which is a little disappointing to me.
This is true to an extent. SoR benefits more from +dmg type gear etc whilst SoC benefits more from Str/Crit gear.

In non str/crit gear the difference between SoC and SoR is not huge, though from playing on beta, i would still say that dps from SoC in str/crit gear is greater than dps from SoR with +dmg type gear. Though i havent put a lot of time into SoR grinding.

Will give it some extra attention tonight,

11/28/06, 11:38 AM   #28
Amera
Jedi Knight

Amera
Night Elf Priest

No WoW Account
 This is true to an extent. SoR benefits more from +dmg type gear etc whilst SoC benefits more from Str/Crit gear. In non str/crit gear the difference between SoC and SoR is not huge, though from playing on beta, i would still say that dps from SoC in str/crit gear is greater than dps from SoR with +dmg type gear. Though i havent put a lot of time into SoR grinding. Will give it some extra attention tonight,
For burst damage it's no comparison. For sustained DPS, I still had the most consistent DPS in melee gear, or best-case scenario, avenger-type gear. Plus, SoR is really boring. ><