CoE vs CoR

Liandra · 11/23/06, 7:14 PM

A question: in your MC raid you have 4 mages, 6 warriors, 5 rogues and 6 hunters. You are the only Warlock. What do you cast: CoR or CoE?

I've tried to find some numbers for the DPS increase of CoR vs that of CoE, because I wanted to know which of the 2 to use in raids if you're the only Warlock. If you have 7 mages, CoE sounds better, and with 3, CoR sounds better. There must be some break-even point somewhere, but I wasn't able to find it.

My gut feeling says that CoR is "usually" better, but some guildies are challenging my gut feeling, and I'd like to have some numbers to see who is right :)

Zwink · 11/23/06, 7:17 PM

With only 4 mages, I would say CoR would give a much larger benefit. Considering warrior, rogues, and hunters all benefit form it. Even if you had 8 mages, if you still had 6 warriors, 6 rogues, and 6 hunters wouldn't CoR still be better?

Liandra · 11/23/06, 7:21 PM

CoE is a 10% damage increase (let's ignore the -resist, since that is usually irrelevant). CoR reduces armor by 640. I bet that this results in much less than +10% physical damage, but how much it is, I don't know. That's why I'm hoping someone has the numbers here.

dojke · 11/23/06, 7:41 PM

Well you're comparing the wrong thing. If it were +10% physical damage, then cor would clearly win due much much more physical dmg done than elemental damage.

Moleva · 11/23/06, 7:42 PM

You'll get about an 8.6% increase to physical damage on a fully sundered boss (generally has 25% DR fully sundered).

Zagzil · 11/23/06, 9:44 PM

I'd probably recruit another warlock, 6 hunters is a lot!

But in general our priority is CoE > CoR > CoS. I guess the melee are just generally "more used" to playing with only sunder+FF and healers are used to damage output w/o CoR, and mages are generally used to playing with CoE, hence we prioritize that.

pf · 11/23/06, 10:34 PM

Originally Posted by Zagzil

I'd probably recruit another warlock, 6 hunters is a lot!

But in general our priority is CoE > CoR > CoS. I guess the melee are just generally "more used" to playing with only sunder+FF and healers are used to damage output w/o CoR, and mages are generally used to playing with CoE, hence we prioritize that.

Being "more used" to something is clearly the reason to prioritize a buff. I'm more used to dpsing with a paladin, so I should use a paladin to dps over a rogue. :)

Anyway, the above question was about MC, and I do believe the -resist from coe would help the mages more than the 10% listed, but given that there are only 4 mages, I would think CoR is clearly the better option especially considering the melee probably have better gear at this point than the mages.

• Hamlet · 11/23/06, 11:02 PM

If a mob has A armor before CoR is applied, CoR will improve physical damage against it by a proportion equal to:

640/(A+5500)

huzzdi · 11/24/06, 12:04 AM

If your mages are fire, in mc, i think no coe would be a huge loss in damage for most of the mages cause of the rather high amount of fr most mc mobs have.

Zagzil · 11/24/06, 12:29 AM

Originally Posted by pf

Being "more used" to something is clearly the reason to prioritize a buff. I'm more used to dpsing with a paladin, so I should use a paladin to dps over a rogue. :)

Anyway, the above question was about MC, and I do believe the -resist from coe would help the mages more than the 10% listed, but given that there are only 4 mages, I would think CoR is clearly the better option especially considering the melee probably have better gear at this point than the mages.

I said "in general." In this specific case I would probably prioritize CoR as well, but generally we raided with 6-7 mages, and were never huge fans of using CoR on certain bosses. Of course, we would also never raid with less than 2 warlocks either!

Masq · 11/24/06, 2:15 AM

CoR would be superior.

The real question is 4 mages, and 6 hunters? Wut.

Azaziel · 11/24/06, 3:31 AM

CoR can sometimes give big hits on your MT, which your healers generally dont like. This is on specific bossmobs though. Generally CoR would give you bigger benefit over CoE.

TL-Seria · 11/24/06, 3:34 AM

Assuming that AP works for mobs just like it works for us, 90 ap isn't going to make a difference when the mob already hits for 2k+

and demo shout will outdo any dps gain on the mob anyways

Liandra · 11/24/06, 4:19 AM

Ok, since you guys are all falling over my specific example now, let's phrase it in a different way.

Your raid faces Large Trash Mob X, which has 0 resist to all magic, and A Armor. Your raid has zero Fire Mages, M Frost Mages, R Rogues, W Warriors (of which 2 Prot specced) and H Hunters.

For which values of A, M, R, W and H does Curse of Recklessness give a larger raid DPS increase than Curse of the Elements?

Azaziel · 11/24/06, 4:26 AM

90 AP for a bossmob can give a very big dmg increase depending on the boss dmg modifiers, which is generally why you want to not use it on heavy autoattack mobs unless you are overgeared. Firemaw, Chromag and Kri for some quick examples.

songster · 11/24/06, 4:49 AM

Still can't say - depends on the relative gear levels (and skills!) of your mages and physical DPS.

The *correct* answer is to recruit more warlocks and take at least three on each raid, to keep up Elements, Shadows and Recklessness at all times.

Liandra · 11/24/06, 5:02 AM

Originally Posted by songster

Still can't say - depends on the relative gear levels (and skills!) of your mages and physical DPS.

Then assume something! :)

Let's say they are all in Tier 1 or equivalent, and all are exactly equally skilled. It's a theoretical question, to get a better understanding of the damage increase caused by CoR's armor reduction.

Originally Posted by songster

The *correct* answer is to recruit more warlocks and take at least three on each raid, to keep up Elements, Shadows and Recklessness at all times.

This might be true, but is also completely irrelevant for the question. All I want to know is how much extra damage you can expect from CoR, per person that deals physical damage.

Vytae · 11/24/06, 5:51 AM

For some reason my search function never works for me,but there's a big thread on CoR mechanics on the forum.

It basicly comes down too how many melee versus how many casters + what boss your on. If your only running 4-5 mages and the usual gamut of 5+ rogues 5+ warriors 3+ hunters CoR will provide more benefit. It dosent provide as much benefit,but more people can take advantage of it.

• sp00n · 11/24/06, 6:04 AM

For a rogue:
- assuming that the dagger spreadsheet already includes a permanent CoR
- T1 with helm and legs T2, Perditions Blade + Corehound Tooth, basically the maximum you can get out of MC and Onyxia

Removing CoR from the equation, i.e. adding 640 armor to the formula, the DPS drops from 633,33 to 573,85, netting a loss of 59,48 DPS per rogue.

Now if you are running with 5 equally skilled rogues in equal gear, this would be 300 RaidDPS less.
Then you have to add the warriors, who will be affected in a similar way (and also generate more rage when the mob has less armor) and the hunters (but I cannot say anything about hunters at all).

Fluster · 11/24/06, 6:06 AM

Originally Posted by Azaziel

90 AP for a bossmob can give a very big dmg increase depending on the boss dmg modifiers, which is generally why you want to not use it on heavy autoattack mobs unless you are overgeared. Firemaw, Chromag and Kri for some quick examples.

That's just misinformation I'm afraid. We routinely use CoR on anything that doesn't have a % based AP modified attack, such as Unbalancing Strike. As previous posters have said, Demo shout more than compensates for the minimal AP increase to the boss in normal situations. Steady autoattack damage from a demo'd mobfor 50-80more (and that's on the high side like Patch) on the MT per hit is nothing compared to the DPS gained and is completley managable, Spike damage kills tanks, not 50-80 extra per hit.

pf · 11/24/06, 6:38 AM

Originally Posted by Fluster

Originally Posted by Azaziel

90 AP for a bossmob can give a very big dmg increase depending on the boss dmg modifiers, which is generally why you want to not use it on heavy autoattack mobs unless you are overgeared. Firemaw, Chromag and Kri for some quick examples.

That's just misinformation I'm afraid. We routinely use CoR on anything that doesn't have a % based AP modified attack, such as Unbalancing Strike. As previous posters have said, Demo shout more than compensates for the minimal AP increase to the boss in normal situations. Steady autoattack damage from a demo'd mobfor 50-80more (and that's on the high side like Patch) on the MT per hit is nothing compared to the DPS gained and is completley managable, Spike damage kills tanks, not 50-80 extra per hit.

You couldnt use CoR on the twin emps if you wanted to. Anyway, nothing in MC has a % based modifier(magmadar has frenzy and thats the closest thing), meaning cor is safe to use.

Liandra · 11/24/06, 6:40 AM

Originally Posted by sp00n

For a rogue:
- assuming that the dagger spreadsheet already includes a permanent CoR
- T1 with helm and legs T2, Perditions Blade + Corehound Tooth, basically the maximum you can get out of MC and Onyxia

Removing CoR from the equation, i.e. adding 640 armor to the formula, the DPS drops from 633,33 to 573,85, netting a loss of 59,48 DPS per rogue.

Hah, numbers. Your number for DPS increase for a Rogue when CoR is applied is about 10%, which is much more than I expected. So if you look only at rogues, the raid DPS increase via CoR and CoE are about the same. However, CoR also increases Warrior and Hunter DPS.

This means that CoR causes a higher increase in raid DPS than CoE. That's what I wanted to know. Thank you.

Fluster · 11/24/06, 6:49 AM

Originally Posted by pf

You couldnt use CoR on the twin emps if you wanted to. Anyway, nothing in MC has a % based modifier(magmadar has frenzy and thats the closest thing), meaning cor is safe to use.

Quite, but it was tbe most tangible example of that type of skill, affected so greatly as it is by demo shout.

Say Razuvious's strike then for the sake of being pedantic.

Itto · 11/24/06, 8:29 AM

http://forums.elitistjerks.com/viewtopic.php?id=7249
Some nice insights there too.

Tibor · 11/24/06, 11:30 AM

Maybe this speaks to the quality of the mages (but I don't think so), but the only class that ever outDPSed me in MC were Rogues, and that only in fights where they could DPS (ie. not Shazzrah). The "lawl 2 meny Huntars" mentality, at least at MC-level itemisation, is more a product of lazy/bad Hunters than disparate DPS capabilities.

CoR all the way.